Views on use of riding crop, and when it's appropriate?

[MegBL]

Ok,

I don't know about all of you but I think people's attitudes towards crops, especially in competition, are getting ridiculous. I've seen numerous attacks on riders like Ellen Whittaker for over-use of the crop, labelling it as "abuse" and animal cruelty.

I tend to ride with a crop (I don't necessarily use it, I find just carrying it is enough because I ride a forward youngster) and, admittedly, it rarely goes beyond a light tap on my boot just to make a good popping noise, to encourage him to go forward or back up a leg aid. But if a horse is being naughty, such as rearing, bucking, biting or kicking then it's important to correct the bad behaviour and give him a sharp smack and a firm "No".

I sympathise with riders like Ellen. When an 8 stone girl like me is riding a big, strong 16.2hh boy then I could end up seriously hurt if I treat him like a puppy and give him a pat for rearing?!

I also find it funny when competition riders (especially SJ's like Ben Maher or Ellen) are ripped to pieces for smacking a couple of times. They know their horses; they can anticipate when a smack could be essential before taking-off or encouragement into a fence, when a horse is ignoring their leg aids.

Do people really, seriously think a couple of sharp smacks is animal abuse? Sure, beating your horse or punishing him with the whip is another matter (i've always thought any corrections should be given immediately after the run-out or rear or whatever so the horse knows what he is doing is wrong and shouldn't be repeated). They are much bigger and stronger than us - I could be put in hospital if I let a strong, forward horse take advantage of me.

Would like to hear your thoughts. x

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Used in anger - not fine.

Used in proportion and immediately to correct behavior - fine

Used in the bedroom - each to their own.

 

[Littlelegs]

There was a thread recently called iirc 'thoughts on whips', lots of different views on there you might find interesting.

 

[TrasaM]

Today I would have really loved to use one on someone I went riding with. She nagged her poor horse senseless, scolded him non stop and just does not get that it's her who is the problem. Hope she's feeling a bit calmer by tomorrow am because I might just be tempted.

Would that have been assault?

Yes, just had this discussion and it was lengthy and unresolved

I had to wave one at my horse (share) today for threatening to kick me whilst I was grooming him because he wanted to be fed. I don't like doing it but he's not yet accepted that me being calm and quiet around him does not mean that I can be bullied. Would I hit him with it.. No!

 

[Big Ben]

Used in anger - not fine.

Used in proportion and immediately to correct behavior - fine

Used in the bedroom - each to their own.

Wish we had a like button, exactly my view

 

[webble]

Used in anger - not fine.

Used in proportion and immediately to correct behavior - fine

Used in the bedroom - each to their own.

He he love this ^^


Merrymoo gets a slap down the shoulder with it when she naps (which involves a half rear and spin) but she is going through a phase of testing boundaries. I have caught myself instead a couple of times and it hasnt hurt

I usually carry one because just making a swoosh noise with it or as someone else said tapping it against my boot can help get her attention back

 

[Alyth]

I would like to ask - do you use a whip on your dog? Your cat? Your children? Your cows? Sheep? So if not, why do you use a whip on your horse? A 'whip' is flexible and hurts with a very small flick. A heavier stick can be used to rub (which is enjoyable!) and tap (to motivate) but won't create the sore welts that a whip does. Would you use your dressage whip on your childs bottom? I certainly hope not!! A riding crop is halfway between your dressage whip and a carrot stick (for instance!) so think how else you would/should use it. Would your like your partner to use it on you? How would you use it on another person? Food for thought?

 

[webble]

I would like to ask - do you use a whip on your dog? Your cat? Your children? Your cows? Sheep? So if not, why do you use a whip on your horse? A 'whip' is flexible and hurts with a very small flick. A heavier stick can be used to rub (which is enjoyable!) and tap (to motivate) but won't create the sore welts that a whip does. Would you use your dressage whip on your childs bottom? I certainly hope not!! A riding crop is halfway between your dressage whip and a carrot stick (for instance!) so think how else you would/should use it. Would your like your partner to use it on you? How would you use it on another person? Food for thought?

I dont think a cat and a horse is a sensible comparison and the child smacking debate is a whole other thread which will have mixed opinions no doubt. As I said in my post I often do slap my leg with it to make a noise to encourage her forward and it doesnt hurt. I have also caught myself with it occasionally and again was fine.

I think it very much depends on the type of whip and the force used as to whether its wrong or not. To be leaving welts you would have to be going for it IMHO and no, thats not something I would do

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

I have no issue with the use of whip as long as its appropriate. At shows its important to stay within the rules too

 

[Shantara]

I've not had to use the whip on Ned for ages, but it's darned useful for moving brambles out the way!
Actually, I lie, I gave him a little tap a couple of days ago, but I bounced it off my leg, so I took most of the force and he had a hi-viz sheet on. With him, it's the sound that sorts him out, more than the hit.

 

[Scarlett]

I would like to ask - do you use a whip on your dog? Your cat? Your children? Your cows? Sheep? So if not, why do you use a whip on your horse? A 'whip' is flexible and hurts with a very small flick. A heavier stick can be used to rub (which is enjoyable!) and tap (to motivate) but won't create the sore welts that a whip does. Would you use your dressage whip on your childs bottom? I certainly hope not!! A riding crop is halfway between your dressage whip and a carrot stick (for instance!) so think how else you would/should use it. Would your like your partner to use it on you? How would you use it on another person? Food for thought?

How ridiculous! You CANNOT compare disciplining a horse to a dog, cat or other animal, or a human. Horses are 500kg, a large average dog 30kg, they need a completley different type of reprimand, same with a child. I have no issues using a whip on my horse when I feel it is needed, and I have no issues with smacking my dog/cat (and if I had one, a child!).

This type of attitude is a contributing factor to why there are so many badly behave animals about, everyone is to soft!

 

[*hic*]

I would like to ask - do you use a whip on your dog? Your cat? Your children? Your cows? Sheep? So if not, why do you use a whip on your horse? A 'whip' is flexible and hurts with a very small flick. A heavier stick can be used to rub (which is enjoyable!) and tap (to motivate) but won't create the sore welts that a whip does. Would you use your dressage whip on your childs bottom? I certainly hope not!! A riding crop is halfway between your dressage whip and a carrot stick (for instance!) so think how else you would/should use it. Would your like your partner to use it on you? How would you use it on another person? Food for thought?

How ridiculous! You CANNOT compare disciplining a horse to a dog, cat or other animal, or a human. Horses are 500kg, a large average dog 30kg, they need a completley different type of reprimand, same with a child. I have no issues using a whip on my horse when I feel it is needed, and I have no issues with smacking my dog/cat (and if I had one, a child!).

This type of attitude is a contributing factor to why there are so many badly behave animals about, everyone is to soft!

Scarlett - your post needs a like button!

 

[ShadowFlame]

Scarlett, you're spot on. There's also the issue of a dog running into you isn't likely to cause much damage. 500kg of horse on the other hand? Manners are a little more important.

Logically, when in a herd environment, how does a horse know it's done something wrong / out of line? Usually by a booting off another horse.

Does a flick with a whip compare? Not really, I'm damn sure a kick hurts more. I have no issues with use of a crop (within reason) when it is called for. The same logic applies to smacks, but that's a whole other can of worms

 

[Scarlett]

Scarlett - your post needs a like button!

Thanks, I have come to hate this current attitude that if you carry a crop you are an abuser. Each horse and rider combination is different, no-one has the right to tell me when and how I should discipline my horses, just like they can't tell me what to feed or what bit to use. It is possible to carry a stick and not be an abuser, it's possible to use a stick in a positive way to teach the horse, carrying one doesn't automatically mean I beat them all regularily. It also doesnt mean that they fear me, quite the opposite, my horses are a pleasure to handle and ride for anyone, maybe I haven't beaten them enough?!

 

[tessybear]

I'd much rather my horse have a tap with a whip than me ending up in hospital with broken bones !

 

[alainax]

Like has been said above, in anger never.

I'd much rather see a flick with a whip than a horse getting booted repeatedly in the ribs! Similarly the whip shouldn't be used in excess though.

I've hit myself lots with the whip ( in a non kinky way ofc ) and it doesn't even come close to hurting, even if I strike it againg my leg 10 times harder than I'd ever hit a horse, it's nothing... I guess they look worse than they are.

My dressage instructor currently has asked me to carry a whip in my left hand over his shoulder. When on the right rein on an off the track bend he leans on his left shoulder, and to correct this she asked me to ever so gently tap that shoulder. Hes a forward going youngster in training, the second I touched him with the whip, he straighted up his shoulders, stopped leaning and was very much more balanced.

 

[melbiswas]

Just carrying a whip makes one of our shall we say less motivated ponies much more off the leg and generally more attentive in the school. He is on loan to us but I know he has been in kind and knowledgeable homes and unlikely to have been beaten!

 

[tessybear]

I have also received a schooling whip round the face from one of my lovely friends and even that didn't really hurt bit of a sting but a normal whip on horses muscle ( in our case flab) won't do them any damage

 

[PandorasJar]

I hate using them but purely because I was brought up without and it means one extra thing to think about.
I've used one once on jumping pony and under instruction. And I took one every time I went out with my old share mare on a road accompanied by nutter horse.
Mine have all seen them but i don't even bother with them on the very few occasions I've lunged.

I have no problem with people who have more coordination than me using them though.

If your hitting hard enough to leave welts then there's a problem.

 

[webble]

I usually carry a schooling whip when out on the road and just raise it outward slightly when a car is coming past us just to encourage the car to pass a bit wider

 

[zaminda]

I ride a horse at work who is a big baby, and was finding I had to nag him to get him to work properly. Now I carry a stick, and can use much lighter leg aids, and the horse is starting to carry himself. Everyone is a winner!
I was always told that the longer some people leave picking up a stick when needed, the harsher you end up having to be in the long run.

 

[benson21]

I uswed to carry a whip when riding, not really to use it, but just so it was there. Benson could see out of the corner of his eye, and yes, on the odd occasion i would tap him down the shoulder with it.
If my dog is naughty, i.e comes in and messes on the carpet, he has done this on occasions, then he gets a smack. Done him no harm. And when I was a child and I was naughty, I had a smack across my behind, again done me no harm!

 

[Frosty89]

I never used to carry one with Benny as he never really needed it. Plus giving him a smack with the whip when he misbehaved just made him 10x worse. I'm not sure if he'd had a bad experience with a previous owner or not, as he would freak out every time he saw one.

I carry one with Enya as she's only just been broken so if she isn't responding to my leg I will give her a little flick. I would also always take one out if hacking on any horse (excluding Benny).

 

[JustKickOn]

I ride with one all the time and have used it on the ground before. It's used to back up my leg or reprimand naughtiness.

I don't really care if people think I am cruel, but if half a tonne of horse barges through me, it is goin to get a whack because it is just plain dangerous. K kicked out yesterday when clipping her, she got two smacks immediately (with my hand might I add). Did she kick out again? Once. She raised a leg but a growl put it back down. Didn't stop her being a cowbag though and now she has a daft looking clip...
On the yard sometimes she ain't the most sane if horses. Sometimes all rational thinking goes from her head, an a tap with a stick brig her back down to earth and she behaves again.
I think though, if the horse is misbehaving, the use of the whip has to be instant. There is no point in delaying and then using it ten seconds later. The moment has gone and the horse won't know what it's for.

Likewise if I am riding and she starts playing up, a little tap down the shoulder will get her attention back.

I never use a crop out of anger, much like I wouldn't with spurs either. That crosses the line.
But if I feel that the actions of the horse will be corrected with the whip, and that it will not have any serious ill effect, I will not hesitate to use the whip.

 

[amandap]

Just carrying a whip makes one of our shall we say less motivated ponies much more off the leg and generally more attentive in the school. He is on loan to us but I know he has been in kind and knowledgeable homes and unlikely to have been beaten!

Not picking on you, just the point. Why does carrying a crop motivate slower horses? My guess is because they know it is going to be used and it hurts! If they didn't know about it they wouldn't be 'motivated' by it. The opportunity to find out why they are slow is lost. Why you would want to use a crop on a forward horse is totally beyond me and if it already knows about the crop and what it does surely it will make the horse even more forward?
The basic nature of horses is to run away from things they are afraid of...

I'm with Alyth.

 

[emma.is]

I personally don't like to see a whip used on the shoulder for punishment, I think it should be used to back your leg up.

 

[Littlelegs]

Whilst whips do have a use & place, I don't understand the argument that its kinder than continually kicking a backwards thinking horse. There's far more pleasant alternatives. If a horse isn't forwards thinking enough to respond to a light leg aid, then imo the solution is getting the horse to think forwards itself, not just using another method to make it move forwards.

 

[madmav]

Not picking on you, just the point. Why does carrying a crop motivate slower horses? My guess is because they know it is going to be used and it hurts! If they didn't know about it they wouldn't be 'motivated' by it. The opportunity to find out why they are slow is lost. Why you would want to use a crop on a forward horse is totally beyond me and if it already knows about the crop and what it does surely it will make the horse even more forward?
The basic nature of horses is to run away from things they are afraid of...

I'm with Alyth.

But teaching them leg aids is based on a horse's flight instinct. You get on a youngster, give it a squeeze, it moves away from it, not knowing what it is. They learn by association what is required from the aid.
No one would condone beating a horse, but I would much rather 'tap up' a lazy horse to get it moving rather than endlessly nag with heels - making them even deader to the leg.

 

[amandap]

But teaching them leg aids is based on a horse's flight instinct.

Interesting point. I don't think it is, I think it's based on applying pressure and releasing it when there is a response aka negative reinforcement. There are some interesting points made about this on the positive reinforcement thread and how horses can become dead to the leg. A horse has to be trained to respond to the leg in the first instance but that can quickly be 'spoiled' by nagging riders and conflicting aids from the bit/reins for eg.
I also think horses can be slow for physical reasons too.
Using the crop allows us all to rely on it and do we really want to rely on threats of pain?

ps. Also we can avoid looking at why a horse is 'lazy'. Ime, horses are not 'lazy'.

 

[Montyforever]

For me it completely depends on the situation. Carrying one in a show jumping round and using if only if you get into trouble is not an issue for me but if someone was walloping their horse before every single jump I'd think it's over use. In dressage it's used as an aid rather than a wallop to get them going usually. I definetely don't have a problem with it used to tell off a horse behaving dangerously either. Better a tap than an injured horse/rider/handler