Views on use of riding crop, and when it's appropriate?

[Enfys]

A whip is an artificial aid, like spurs, I see absolutely no harm in utilising them both if the need arises.

Used correctly it has a place and can get you out of a whole lot of sticky situations, it isn't only for punishment it is a whole form of communication - look at driving horses.

The use of the whip should be part and parcel of learning to ride, and, in the case of the horse in being trained.

When I used to teach, in the dim and very distant past, I would teach children/novices how and when to use both a crop and a schooling whip, is this still done now in lessons?

 

[mandwhy]

I agree Nadolig it is for communication. I use a schooling whip normally to back up a leg aid, to put against a shoulder out hacking when horse is thinking of sidestepping around e.g wheelie bins and there is oncoming traffic, as an arm extension on the ground and when going out in hand e.g. crossing a road whip held in front of chest and tap/wiggle it on her chest if she tries to go into the road, harder if she still does it (I think not getting run over justifies it!). Also to hold behind me to keep her quarters in when traffic passing if I think she might try to pivot round my head... There are endless uses for me and hardly any of them involve even a tap let alone a smack! I have used it to punish or protect myself occasionally e.g. kicking, barging in field. This is fairly rare but my current horse gets very defensive/aggressive when you growl/shout at her, so a short sharp smack actually seems to be less frightening to her.

When I have seen professionals use a whip on XC etc I have usually thought it just conveys urgency like 'jump now or we'll never get over this huge solid obstacle', although local pony club... bleurgh I don't need to go on!

 

[Big Ben]

How ridiculous! You CANNOT compare disciplining a horse to a dog, cat or other animal, or a human. Horses are 500kg, a large average dog 30kg, they need a completley different type of reprimand, same with a child. I have no issues using a whip on my horse when I feel it is needed, and I have no issues with smacking my dog/cat (and if I had one, a child!).

This type of attitude is a contributing factor to why there are so many badly behave animals about, everyone is to soft!

Another *LIKE* for Scarlett, a well timed and placed tap with a whip, or smack is often enough to reset the mind set of a protesting horse, dog or kid. It saddens me that people see a touch as abuse, when done properly, without anger, it is an effective attitude changer. I also carry different whips for different things, if I think I may have to actually use a whip to hit, I want a medium length with a broad double leather on the end, so it makes a good noise and isn't a sting. If I am working on something on the ground in hand, or mounted in the school I will usually carry a long dressage whip, and that isn't to hit, but provide an extension of my reach, so it is more of a touch.

 

[amandap]

I personally have never once seen a crop used as a "touch". I have seen them used in rider anger, frustration and fear.

 

[111ex111]

I always carry a schooling whip, rarely use it except for moving branches out the way on hacks if he doesn't have an exercise sheet on then I will just touch him with it (literally a tickle/touch- not a tap) in the school because he gets really heavy and behind my leg. as soon as he moves forward though I use my voice to tell him he was good. but if he has a sheet on the noise of the whip touching it scares him ahaha as i touch him on the shoulder

I really dont understand why people are sooo against whips???? as long as they are used properly and not in anger. I was taught how to use one in the riding school!

 

[Shantara]

I personally have never once seen a crop used as a "touch". I have seen them used in rider anger, frustration and fear.

Then you've been looking at the wrong people!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMVcwqQqd8o

 

[111ex111]

Then you've been looking at the wrong people!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMVcwqQqd8o

oh my god the little one is so cute!

 

[dark_prince]

Just another thought. Anyone have horses that aren't remotely fussed if you carry a whip or not (e.g. Don't become 'motivated' when you do carry one). My horse isn't bothered either way, but sometimes I find I need to carry one as he has a very short attention span and I find a tap will ask him to snap out of his daydream?

 

[amandap]

Then you've been looking at the wrong people!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMVcwqQqd8o

That isn't a crop to me and I should have said ridden. I have seen crops used to tap the shoulder when ridden with no time to move the hand.

I have seen lots of work both on the ground and ridden with 'whips'/sticks as indicators. The riding crop in my understanding is designed to hit with and that is how I've seen it used. The ops question was about crops.

 

[MegBL]

How ridiculous! You CANNOT compare disciplining a horse to a dog, cat or other animal, or a human. Horses are 500kg, a large average dog 30kg, they need a completley different type of reprimand, same with a child. I have no issues using a whip on my horse when I feel it is needed, and I have no issues with smacking my dog/cat (and if I had one, a child!).

This type of attitude is a contributing factor to why there are so many badly behave animals about, everyone is to soft!

Absolutely agree...obviously everyone uses their whip differently, any abuse would not be down to the whip itself but the way in which it's used. Can't believe some people think a girl could do damage to a 500kg animal with a short flick of a crop!! I feel it's far less abusive than nag nag nagging your horse with constant kicking in the ribs or yanking on the mouth with really defensive hands. Glad that not everyone's gone completely soft!

 

[Alyth]

Not picking on you, just the point. Why does carrying a crop motivate slower horses? My guess is because they know it is going to be used and it hurts! If they didn't know about it they wouldn't be 'motivated' by it. The opportunity to find out why they are slow is lost. Why you would want to use a crop on a forward horse is totally beyond me and if it already knows about the crop and what it does surely it will make the horse even more forward?
The basic nature of horses is to run away from things they are afraid of...

I'm with Alyth.

Thanks Amandap!! I must mention that my ponies/horses don't 'run all over me'!!!! They back away at a look even when they are at liberty!!! I have found the principle of rewarding every try makes even the laziest of horses responsive to the lightest of aids.
I must add that I am quite surprised at the amount of violence allowed by posters on this forum!! Remember Zenophon who said anything forced is not beautiful!! And to me using a whip is akin to using force....and another 'expert' reckoned that where knowledge ends violence begins......

 

[Alyth]

Interesting point. I don't think it is, I think it's based on applying pressure and releasing it when there is a response aka negative reinforcement. There are some interesting points made about this on the positive reinforcement thread and how horses can become dead to the leg. A horse has to be trained to respond to the leg in the first instance but that can quickly be 'spoiled' by nagging riders and conflicting aids from the bit/reins for eg.
I also think horses can be slow for physical reasons too.
Using the crop allows us all to rely on it and do we really want to rely on threats of pain?

ps. Also we can avoid looking at why a horse is 'lazy'. Ime, horses are not 'lazy'.

Totally agree.....sorry though that so many people don't understand or disagree!!

 

[Pale Rider]

For me it's a simple no, and no hitting a horse is never appropreate.

 

[winkles]

Just another thought. Anyone have horses that aren't remotely fussed if you carry a whip or not (e.g. Don't become 'motivated' when you do carry one). My horse isn't bothered either way, but sometimes I find I need to carry one as he has a very short attention span and I find a tap will ask him to snap out of his daydream?

Yes, this is exactly why I carried a whip with my share-horse.

 

[Alyth]

And how do you use the crop/whip??? IMO there is a difference between a crop and a whip....and the use depends on the attitude of the human. Do you use it as an arm extension - you can scratch him where it is itching? Or do you allow emotion - irritation? anger? to influence how and how hard you are hitting him? Can you, or anyone else using said instrument, differentiate between a gentle tap (suggestion) or a harder....'you will move now'??? And I won't even go to a vicious 'how dare you do that' .........And I go back to my first post on this thread.....do you use a whip on other animals/children in your care? The horse may be bigger in size but not in brain than the human. In addition the horse has different priorities and traits. He is a prey animal more inclined to run away from the dangerous human than barge over him.......It is the humans responsibility to learn to communicate with a non verbal animal who is in his care and ensure the animal is happy, comfortable and able to live with us in harmony.....

 

[TrasaM]

As Amandap and Alyth. I've just started to ride a 17hh previousley well schooled mare who has been used for hacking for the past two years and ridden by someone who uses a crop. She completely ignored leg aids unless they were side thumping kicks. She gets cropped for spooking and stopping constantly and has no idea what a nudge or squeeze of the leg means anymore. I want to start riding her regularly but will have to do something to get her listening to my legs as I dont do kicking and I don't believe in using a whip or crop to punish in the way she is currently used to.
I've been taught how to use a whip correctly and to me it is an extension of my arm to block a shoulder or rear end from moving out or a tap behind my leg to draw attention to my leg aid.
However I see it being used constantly by some people I ride with and it's unpleasant and unproductive and in many cases a compensation for lack of riding ability.

 

[Alyth]

As Amandap and Alyth. I've just started to ride a 17hh previousley well schooled mare who has been used for hacking for the past two years and ridden by someone who uses a crop. She completely ignored leg aids unless they were side thumping kicks. She gets cropped for spooking and stopping constantly and has no idea what a nudge or squeeze of the leg means anymore. I want to start riding her regularly but will have to do something to get her listening to my legs as I dont do kicking and I don't believe in using a whip or crop to punish in the way she is currently used to.
I've been taught how to use a whip correctly and to me it is an extension of my arm to block a shoulder or rear end from moving out or a tap behind my leg to draw attention to my leg aid.
However I see it being used constantly by some people I ride with and it's unpleasant and unproductive and in many cases a compensation for lack of riding ability.

I do wish we had a "like" button!!!

 

[MagicMelon]

I would like to ask - do you use a whip on your dog? Your cat? Your children? Your cows? Sheep? So if not, why do you use a whip on your horse? A 'whip' is flexible and hurts with a very small flick. A heavier stick can be used to rub (which is enjoyable!) and tap (to motivate) but won't create the sore welts that a whip does. Would you use your dressage whip on your childs bottom? I certainly hope not!! A riding crop is halfway between your dressage whip and a carrot stick (for instance!) so think how else you would/should use it. Would your like your partner to use it on you? How would you use it on another person? Food for thought?

I do agree with this really. And saying horses are big animals so they need it to be kept in line is a bit ridiculous, a dog for example although not big as such could kill a person pretty quickly if they really wanted to!

Personally I usually carry one out of habit but I use it purely to "tickle" to back up my leg aid. Literally touching my grey with it was enough! Thats how reactive a horse should be though IMO. Horses shouldn't get to the point they need a proper smack, something has gone badly wrong by that point. I cant stand it when I see a horse refuse a jump at a competition (or schooling wherever) and the horse freaking out because it clearly knows its going to get a smack. That to me is so sad as its obviously hit that much that it knows whats coming. I want to drag the rider off (whose fault it always is that the horse refused in the first place) and beat them with it!

 

[TrasaM]

I do wish we had a "like" button!!!

Thanks Alyth. The irony of the situation is that the owner would not let me take a whip with me because said horse will kick out if she is hit! And she was worried that I couldn't cope with her. I've had her spook with me when the Shitlands scared her and kept her calm with my voice and hands, a situation where her regular rider would have cropped her for 'playing up'

I have told the owner(friend) again and again that hitting a spooking horse will, in my opinion, make things worse. Yet the following day she went out with her regular rider and got smacked for spooking! Again.
I'd love to loan the mare but I can see problems ahead. How do I as a relatively new rider explain to an experienced rider that I now want her to stop doing this. And how am I to reschool the horse successfully when someone else will persist in kicking and smacking. Can of worms me thinks.

 

[Waffles]

I never ride with one. I don't even have a crop anymore! I find they are a damned nuisance out riding. They stop me riding one handed.

 

[Littlelegs]

Waffles, you are clearly not thinking it through very well. The correct position for a whip is under the leg, so that you have somewhere to hook the buckle end of the reins while you ride non-handed. Thus enabling you to light up two handed out hacking on windy days, or to free up both hands to pay at McDonald's drive thru, play Simon says etc. Whip can be removed to emphasise arm signals to cars trying to get through a too small gap, but otherwise its main use is as a reins hook. And a fab way to correct people who tend to turn legs outwards.
Seriously, I'm still waiting for someone to explain why they think using a whip to create energy is the only 'kinder' (lol) alternative to kicking. Neither is going to make the horse think forwards, so imo its not kinder at all & doesn't address the cause.

 

[Waffles]

Waffles, you are clearly not thinking it through very well. The correct position for a whip is under the leg, so that you have somewhere to hook the buckle end of the reins while you ride non-handed. Thus enabling you to light up two handed out hacking on windy days, or to free up both hands to pay at McDonald's drive thru, play Simon says etc. Whip can be removed to emphasise arm signals to cars trying to get through a too small gap, but otherwise its main use is as a reins hook. And a fab way to correct people who tend to turn legs outwards.
Seriously, I'm still waiting for someone to explain why they think using a whip to create energy is the only 'kinder' (lol) alternative to kicking. Neither is going to make the horse think forwards, so imo its not kinder at all & doesn't address the cause.

Well, as I don't have a problem making my horse go forwards I don't want to have one anyway

 

[Waffles]

A friend of mine uses the metal bit on the tip of her whip to hit the roofs of passing cars if they are going too fast - best use for them I think