Violent methods - POLL

[vivhewe]

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dancing round like a fairy with your magic wond in your tutu

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I've just splurted tea all over my keyboard at that

LMAO!

 

[Haflinger]

When riding, I usually carry a small whip and use it if the horse needs it (for both aid backups and bad behaviour). Not a great wallop, just a decent 'don't do that again' smack.

The one thing I will NOT stand for is a rude horse that is a threat to both me, other people or itself.

 

[NealW]

There is nothing you can't do with subtle body language with most horses. (that heven't been mentally disturbed by violent people) Watch and listen and you will discover this.

You can control a horse with eye movement.

Bolshy horses are usually merely leaderless horses that don't respect the handler.

This includes hitting because it confuses a horse unless carried out with precision or understanding. Non of which the average human posesses.

The fact that many horsemen never need to strike a horse should be something we all strive to do, surely.

Were you hit as children? I was and it made my life a misery. I was headshy for years. I had post traumatic stress.

I have seen horses who are a sweet as any human could ever be, become dangerous through 'I don't hit them unless they deserve it.' justification. You never NEED to hit a horse you just want to and feel you can. Horses are always more dangerous when violence is used instead of intelligence. How many horses have been destroyed because humans use violence against them.

If you are good horseman/woman you deal with a situation before they have so much control of you that you have revert to cave man mode and strike out.

We are not horses and they know that: we are civilised human beings with the ability to learn from eachother and the latest educational benefit we have is that horses are sensitive to body language enough not to need violence.


The man Who Listens or the Man who hits? You decide....

 

[GTs]

Neal if it was like that - why do horses bite eachother, kick eachother, why does a mre kick her foal?

 

[Forget_Me_Not]

Thank you GTs

Neal what ever.... you dont seem to back up with much facts... i know when i teach and train i tend to back things up... Like how long horses have done this.... why they do that etc.... Just so people know i know what im chatting about!

 

[Happy Horse]

I got a good slap on the backside if I did anything wrong when I was young. I grew up just fine and I certainly learnt what was right or wrong - a lot more than can be said for a lot of kids nowadays. As GTs has pointed out there is a dfference between discipline and abuse.

 

[viola]

(quick reply)

Hmm, I don't like any violent methods and only usually ride with a whip (short or long depending on what I do with a horse - prefer long for schooling to reinforce my leg if needed, and short one when jumping) or spurs when riding on well schooled horses (don't like using spurs on anything that has flaws (sp) in schooling; prefere to use spurs as a 'finishing touch' and a 'precision tool' - if that makes sense).
I don't mean that you shouldn't discipline a horse. As long as you know EXACTLY what you want from your animal and what reaction you want then a cool (not with anger) smack with a whip in the right place and at the right moment shouldn't be so bad for it - as mentioned above horses do discipline each other in quite a mercyless way!. HOWEVER, If you want a horse to be a slave, be afraid of you or 'must listen or...' then there is something very wrong with you.

 

[helenandshadow]

Quite a few of the above, but not without good reason. I won't put up with rude or dangerous horses.

 

[Tinkerbee]

I was smacked (often hard!) when i was younger, and not just by my parents (grandparents/aunts etc) and ive turned out fine!

I will hit the horses if they need it, i will smack the dogs if i feel they need it and if i have kids i will smack them too.
Im not cruel i dont beat my animals and neither the horses or the dogs are afraid of me..tehy dont avoid me or flinch if a hand is raised near them.
Horses are bl**dy big animals and im titchy, if the horse is throwing its weight about i will smack it.

 

[brighteyes]

This isn't me, but an instructor I know (who can get quite animated and squeaky) has a couple of JRT's who step in when they think horsey isn't co-operating. They dash about madly, yipping and yapping - outside assistance if ever there was any. I wouldn't have said they had much of a beneficial effect, but now I think about it, they are enough of a distraction to re-focus the horse. Whatever, it's very funny when they decide enough is enough and a bit of extra encouragement is needed.

 

[vivhewe]

LOL! My dog did that when I tried to vault on the neddie in the field and I got bucked off lol!

Landed on my feet but the bloody dog knew about it

 

[vivhewe]

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There is nothing you can't do with subtle body language with most horses. (that heven't been mentally disturbed by violent people)

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My neddie's previous owners didn't hit him or smack him or tell him off. The girl told him he was a good boy all the time. He used to bite when tacked up, because she told him he was a good boy when she tightened the girth up and he thought it was good. No doubt she told him he was a good boy when he bronced as soon as she got on too. He wasn't mentally disturbed by a violent person but he was still a little sh:t and when he was misbehaving subtle body language didn't work - booting the bugger in the ribs did!


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How many horses have been destroyed because humans use violence against them.

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My old mare had a sh:t life before I got her and she had 9 happy years pottering about in the field. With her she would've been destroyed for being dangerous had we not bought her, and I never used a whip on her, but she still got a light slap when she was pushing her luck and shouted at at times. It didn't mean I hadn't done her a favout by getting her, and when she was PTS due to old age in August I had lots of support from people on HHO because I'd got her and let her have some peace and quiet for a few years.

I suppose by slapping her sometimes though I was still a bad owner compared to those who owned her and rode her whilst she had back problems, had her in a pelham with a flash and martingale so she was restricted, and gave her a hiding for taking off home just because she'd been galloped everywhere previously and thought she was doing right?

I feel you have some nice ideas, and if you have horses you can control merely by body language then you are very lucky, but everyone has different methods and although I don't agree with people knocking seven bells out of their horses, reprimands in the right situation and in the right way are fair enough. Each to their own - perhaps if you expressed your ideas rather than condemned everyone for what they do your views might be better received.

 

[tazet]

hi i agree with prety much everything said and body language is the other thing along with some kind of verbal repremand. i once did bite a horse that bit me he never did it again but finger nails used on the shoulder to move them back when being pushy works best

 

[Agent XXX999]

Neal....

Stop your wharbelling I have never heard anything so utterly stupid in my whole life.

Common sense is best with horses. Cruelty has alot of different levels- I think that not riding your horse and keeping it in a stable is cruel - others dont. It is all a matter of opinion.

You are not right - nor are you wrong - I do think that your views are pretty limited, and like anything it is horses for courses. I bet you wouldnt have the guts to go in with some of the horses at our yard - not because they are dangerous, but because they are senstive competition horses and need to be handled a little differently to the wondercobs that we also have.

I dont - and I know others dont (if they have any sense) have one set way of dealoing with any horse. I dont hit my horse or smack him - however I am fully admitting that I whalloped one of the others today when he tried to run through me.

I am really sorry that you were beaten as a child but I think this makes you slitely biased. I honestly think that like anything - it is horses for courses and there is no set way for dealing with them as they are all individuals. Childeren are a completely different things to horses.

I think that your views, and (in honestly) your experience with horses is pretty l limited. This is also indicative of the way that you post.

I would have much more respect for someone who didnt just rant and say everyone is wrong for the way they seal with their horses. I find it really irritating that you are so limited in your opinions and clearly quite a novice - because if you were experienced you would realuise there is no set way of dealing with a horse and realise that the majority of horse owners have horses interests at heart. Clearly some people dont, but in general.

I really wish that you would bore off with your hippy love a tree ramblings and limited opinipns.

I really try never to get personal on the forum but you really have wound me up with this.

By the way I have never 'joined up' with Bruce but he follows me round the yard and never leaves my side.

 

[Lucy_Ally]

What an interesting post, Neal has really managed to stir something up hasn't he?!

Ok here is my view:

I own a 16.3hh middleweight Irish draught cross that was allowed to do whatever she pleased with her previous owner and as such had no manners or respect for her handler. She was essentially a big spoilt baby with very strong opinions and knew how to use her strength against you to get what she wanted.
Screaming at her doesn't work. Jumping up and down and get angry with her doesn't help. Smacking or slapping her just makes her cross and more bolshy!

So it was left up to me to out-think her.
I like some aspects of natural horsemanship, I am a firm believer in body language with horses but don't go in for "wands" and "games" and also believe that sometimes a short sharp shock can be necessary in some situtations. So Spring was taught manners, we did lots of groundwork - getting her to respect my personal space and lead properly and back up/move over when asked. I use a Be Nice halter which really helps and stops her just tanking off or acting like a stubborn mule. She now has pretty good manners and I never really hit her (have lost my rag a couple of times and realised that it would make the situation worse so went away and sat on my hands till I had calmed down!). I use my body language and growl at her when she needs reminding of her place in the pecking order, but use lots of praise which I don't think she ever really had before and can see that she really appreciates this.

However, I do carry a stick when riding as she can occaionally be nappy or lazy, but I always ask nicely first and use the stick as the last resort and once we get to that stage she knows that there is no messing around and gets on with it. I use spurs (very short button spurs) to refine my leg aids and get her listening to me without nagging at her.

This is my strategy with my mare, but all horses are different and this is the first one I have had that needs disciplining quite so much and is quite so intelligent! She has improved so much with this system but I wouldn't enforce my views on others, somthing sadly that many natural horsemanship people do - its not the only way. I feel that natural horsemanship is actually just another name for good horsemanship, practiced by many excellent horse-people for centuries, its now just presented in fluffy bunnyhugger packaging with too many extortionately over priced gimics.

 

[PapaFrita]

I'm curious to know what you would do if a horse sank its teeth into you? Reprimand it verbally? What if it went for you again? DON'T say that if a horse is started correctly, it won't bite since not all horses DO receive a great start in life and lots ARE treated very badly. And DON'T suggest the horse must've been provoked because there's NO excuse for biting. What would you do in this case?
A horse once picked me up in his teeth by the shoulder. I grabbed the nearest broom and belted him one on his side to stop him going for me again. Would you just accept the biting? Now, if in nature a horse that bites another would receive a boot, or a bite back, how come I can't give my horse a slap for biting? Your arguments seem very illogical since the natural way is for a horse that is attacked to defend himself with his heels or his teeth which are MUCH harder than my hand or whip.
I DON'T advocate 'hiding' or 'beating' horses, but whilst a horse feels free to hurt me, I will feel free to give him a taste of his own medicine.

 

[Tia]

I agree with you Neal. I think you have a good understanding of most horses. There will always be exceptions to the rule but I do agree that in most instances horses respond with a steady progression when they aren't hit but are treated in a manner in which they understand.

Unfortunately a lot of people do not understand this manner, hence the horse becomes confused. Most situations with most horses do not require physical violence, but there are some situations where horses may not respect your facing them up and if the handler is not sure of the next move then hitting will be their automatic response. I actually don't see a whole lot wrong with people doing this on rare occasions; they are probably scared and are covering their ass so to speak. The horse is not exactly being beaten therefore no lasting damage is done and the handler and the horse will have learned something.

Plus we do have to remember what is the way for some of us to react with our horses is not the way others choose to do it. There's more than one way to skin a cat..........