Violent reaction to rug change

[hopscotch bandit]

My horse who is on day 17 of box rest for a check ligament injury last night lifted a leg to me and then tried to bite me as I changed her rug. She can be like this from time to time but it is very infrequent (say once a month or so) and she usually pulls a face when she does do it, never lifted a leg to me before. I was quite upset as she is a very gentle, stoic horse who has horses brush past her bottom when led past and will never bat an eyelid, or have a dog run under her stomach and not care or retailiate, this is what her personality is like.

She has arthritis is her hocks which has been treated, and in her neck. About a week into the box rest she was assessed by a vet at their clinic which involved flexion trot up and lunging and looked the best she has looked for years, she was very sound considering her check ligament injury, I was actually astounded and the vet said she was doing very well for her age (rising 23) and sees no reason why she can't go back to hacking and even being ridden in the school (this isn't going to happen as every time I try a previous injury reoccurs).

My biggest fear of putting an arthritic horse through more than a couple of weeks box rest was that the horse would be extremely uncomfortable or 'seize up' and I always said I would never do this to her and yet the vet didn't think that would be the case at all with her and to crack on with box rest which he anticipated would be around the 6 week mark. And she seems to have proved him right thankfully, as she certainly doesn't appear to be stiff when she is walked out of the stable for her five minutes of controlled exercise everyday (which either entails a quick walk around the perimeter of the building or five minutes on the walker.) So i don't think it is this. Even though she's had her shoes taken off she seems to be walking out very well, sometimes striding in her eagerness.

I've always suspected gastric ulcers as she used to suffer from repeated bouts of gassy spasmodic colic and years ago one of the vets from the practice suggested this may have been the reason why. But when I asked the head vet who was trying to find candidates for a free scoping session, he thought it hilarious when I mentioned it to him and said there was no way my horse had ulcers - this was a long time ago when it was thought that horses suffering from ulcers were thin and ill looking and she was well covered and didn't look sick!

She is on her 3rd tub of Tumeric so I am going to monitor her for a few more days and see if she repeats her behaviour or it gets any worse and if it does stop feeding the Tumeric.

I will not be going down the route of scoping. It is not the cost of scoping so much as the cost of treatment, £400 - £600 per week for a minimum of 6-8 weeks. As she is not insured anymore I need to be realistic as she has had a great deal of money spent on her over the years and I sadly cannot contemplate spending upwards of £2.4 K on her.

I will of course continue to monitor her progress and if she continues to show this behaviour I will stop the Tumeric and give her one of the ulcer supplements on the market like Ulsakind or similar.

What do you think, please no unkind comments, I am finding all this very stressful at the moment?

 

[NOISYGIRL2]

You could try a stomach product like protexin available in paste or powder, ulsakind is a cubed feed I believe

 

[windand rain]

Pink mash has protexin in it and is a good carrier for other tummy protection mine all get runny poo from hay so they all get a small cup of pink mash and psyllium about an hour before they are given hay and their soaked low sugar/carb feeds it has worked wonders so far. Even the ancient one is making poo rather than black water

 

[milliepops]

appreciate the cost issue but if the horse does have ulcers then a supplement is not going to do the job that a course of gastroguard would have done.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

appreciate the cost issue but if the horse does have ulcers then a supplement is not going to do the job that a course of gastroguard would have done.

i will take advice from my vet. I dont even know if that is the problem, i am just surmising. Can box rest make gastric ulcers worse? Could it be simply that box rest is frustrating her when she is used to being turned out?

 

[skint1]

hopscotch bandit- my horse has ulcers and is under treatment so I am on a few groups with other owners. Try looking at abler.com, they sell omaprazole and sucralfate, it comes from America but people say it's good and much cheaper than getting it through vets. People tend to do it if ulcers reoccur after initial treatment

 

[milliepops]

i will take advice from my vet. I dont even know if that is the problem, i am just surmising. Can box rest make gastric ulcers worse? Could it be simply that box rest is frustrating her when she is used to being turned out?

well it could be any of those things. change of routine can add to stress and therefore be a contributory factor to ulcers, but it can also just make them a bit crabby. I was just thinking i wouldn't be adding another supplement to the mix and thinking that will solve the problem. the best thing you can do is give as much forage as possible.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

well it could be any of those things. change of routine can add to stress and therefore be a contributory factor to ulcers, but it can also just make them a bit crabby. I was just thinking i wouldn't be adding another supplement to the mix and thinking that will solve the problem. the best thing you can do is give as much forage as possible.

Thats what i thought i would do initially when she started box rest but she's not eating much, my friend thinks its because she's bored of eating. she wallops down her feeds of speedibeet and allen and page veteran vitality which i make sloppy for her to try to prevent impaction issues but when i go up after work there is loads of hay left in her bed and in her haybar. She is on her third round bale of hay that ive bought for her to try and she has tried three other liveries hay but still leaves it. I darent try her on haylage as this i am sure will bring on colic.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

hopscotch bandit- my horse has ulcers and is under treatment so I am on a few groups with other owners. Try looking at abler.com, they sell omaprazole and sucralfate, it comes from America but people say it's good and much cheaper than getting it through vets. People tend to do it if ulcers reoccur after initial treatment

Thank you

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Pink mash has protexin in it and is a good carrier for other tummy protection mine all get runny poo from hay so they all get a small cup of pink mash and psyllium about an hour before they are given hay and their soaked low sugar/carb feeds it has worked wonders so far. Even the ancient one is making poo rather than black water

Thanks for that. she is on pink powder for her colics and hasn't had a single one last year. i have also been giving her plenty of fluids in her feeds and think this and changing her paddock water 3 times a week in the summer has made a difference also

 

[Floofball]

She may just be letting you know she’s frustrated with the box rest? may be uncomfortable for her standing in even if not appearing stiff when walked out. Pain and stress can cause or exacerbate ulcers. Agree with NG2 re the protexin paste - wouldn’t do any harm to try and you will know if it’s helping after the 5 days. I’ve also heard of people trying Rene tabs for a few days to see if there’s improvement? I’m assuming you have her on turmeric for her joints/stiffness so if you think it’s helping her I’d maybe not stop it yet - is she on any pain meds?

 

[ihatework]

Lifting a leg and turning to bite isn’t what I’d describe as violent. More grumpy/crabby. Hardly surprising if confined to barracks really.

Whilst it’s certainly not behaviour to be dismissed out of hand, I would say don’t over think it just yet.

If you are worried about guts I’d try protexin acid ease.

When they are stabled 24/7 they often self regulate their eating. Try giving in smaller amounts, different nets etc to reduce wastage. A trug of grass chaff often goes down well too.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Lifting a leg and turning to bite isn’t what I’d describe as violent. More grumpy/crabby. Hardly surprising if confined to barracks really.

Whilst it’s certainly not behaviour to be dismissed out of hand, I would say don’t over think it just yet.

If you are worried about guts I’d try protexin acid ease.

When they are stabled 24/7 they often self regulate their eating. Try giving in smaller amounts, different nets etc to reduce wastage. A trug of grass chaff often goes down well too.

Thank you. I agree i may be over thinking things. I am feeling a bit fragile and down and every thing is getting on top of me. I need a good kick up the ass! Just want to do right by her and find this all very stressful. Just want spring to come round quickly i guess! Yes i might get some readigrass. That's a good idea. She's not meant to have chaff based stuff because of her teeth (getting stuck and causing inflammation) but i think tbh keeping her happy and eating is better in the short term. Thank you.

 

[chaps89]

If you do want to investigate ulcers the costs aren't as scary as they used to be.
Couple of hundred pounds for scope (though my practice often do free scoping days)
A box of 7 peptizole syringes (treatment for up to 700kg per tube) was £175 from my vets last month, I had 2 boxes which was a 2-3 week course for mine.
So not cheap no, but certainly not as pricey as it used to be

 

[SamBean]

I've had one do this with ulcers, he kicks under with his back legs. In My case though it was back pain. See if she reacts more often before trying anything first maybe, mine did it all the time from having him but funny enough, now he knows we know he doesn't do it anymore! I'm still careful grooming him around his spine and quarters as he will do it then too.

 

[w1bbler]

My horse who is on day 17 of box rest for a check ligament injury last night lifted a leg to me and then tried to bite me as I changed her rug. She can be like this from time to time but it is very infrequent (say once a month or so) and she usually pulls a face when she does do it, never lifted a leg to me before. I was quite upset as she is a very gentle, stoic horse who has horses brush past her bottom when led past and will never bat an eyelid, or have a dog run under her stomach and not care or retailiate, this is what her personality is like.

She has arthritis is her hocks which has been treated, and in her neck. About a week into the box rest she was assessed by a vet at their clinic which involved flexion trot up and lunging and looked the best she has looked for years, she was very sound considering her check ligament injury, I was actually astounded and the vet said she was doing very well for her age (rising 23) and sees no reason why she can't go back to hacking and even being ridden in the school (this isn't going to happen as every time I try a previous injury reoccurs).

My biggest fear of putting an arthritic horse through more than a couple of weeks box rest was that the horse would be extremely uncomfortable or 'seize up' and I always said I would never do this to her and yet the vet didn't think that would be the case at all with her and to crack on with box rest which he anticipated would be around the 6 week mark. And she seems to have proved him right thankfully, as she certainly doesn't appear to be stiff when she is walked out of the stable for her five minutes of controlled exercise everyday (which either entails a quick walk around the perimeter of the building or five minutes on the walker.) So i don't think it is this. Even though she's had her shoes taken off she seems to be walking out very well, sometimes striding in her eagerness.

I've always suspected gastric ulcers as she used to suffer from repeated bouts of gassy spasmodic colic and years ago one of the vets from the practice suggested this may have been the reason why. But when I asked the head vet who was trying to find candidates for a free scoping session, he thought it hilarious when I mentioned it to him and said there was no way my horse had ulcers - this was a long time ago when it was thought that horses suffering from ulcers were thin and ill looking and she was well covered and didn't look sick!

She is on her 3rd tub of Tumeric so I am going to monitor her for a few more days and see if she repeats her behaviour or it gets any worse and if it does stop feeding the Tumeric.

I will not be going down the route of scoping. It is not the cost of scoping so much as the cost of treatment, £400 - £600 per week for a minimum of 6-8 weeks. As she is not insured anymore I need to be realistic as she has had a great deal of money spent on her over the years and I sadly cannot contemplate spending upwards of £2.4 K on her.

I will of course continue to monitor her progress and if she continues to show this behaviour I will stop the Tumeric and give her one of the ulcer supplements on the market like Ulsakind or similar.

What do you think, please no unkind comments, I am finding all this very stressful at the moment?

It might not be as expensive as you think, mine was £200 for scope & then £220 each for omeprazole jabs, including vet attending to give them. Only needed 3 jabs (grade 2 ulcers)
Then a month of sulfucrate afterwards (£170 ish)

 

[PurBee]

She could be crabby, nipping you due to box rest if she’s used to turn out mostly and hardly ever boxed for long periods. Its like solitary confinement compared to freedom for them. As a size comparison for a horse in a 12x12 stable its like us in standing position being in a box 2 foot deep X 6 foot wide. The limited movement is helping her heal, she doesnt know it, unfortunately.

The active anti-inflammatory compound in turmeric is fat soluble and so it’s far more effective to melt coconut oil, heat slowly and add turmeric to it, heating it through with the fat to release the active ingredient. You wont need to use so mich turmeric, as its highly ineffective unless its taken with fat in the diet. Piperine from black pepper also enhances the uptake of curcumin from turmeric, thus allowing a lower dose also.
Many companies sell turmeric capsules and powder, knowing everyone is ignorant of its ineffective release unless coupled with fat. Some powders have piperine added aswell. If your tub has both ingredients, great - use that and heat oil or whatever horse safe fat you have, mix in the turmeric, cook low....and keep that to use as a powerful supplement.
Google this more and youll find detailed methods to extract the curcumin into fat.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Would linseed not provide the fat ?

 

[PurBee]

No AA, from what i gather the curcumin content within turmeric powder is fat-loving so needs to be bound to fat molecularly for delivery and best absorption in the blood.
It wont pair-up/conjunct itself effectively in the digestive system with the fats in ground-up linseed that may be in the same meal, considering the small amount of oil in linseed whole seeds especially....but if you were to just mix in some oil with the turmeric that would be better than just turmeric powder.

With curcumin extract powder from turmeric given orally, 1% is absorbed into blood in humans.
Turmeric contains 5% curcumin roughly, so now you see how much is needed of turmeric powder to get a decent dose active in the bloodstream.
Piperine from fresh ground black pepper (has to be fresh as piperine oxidises quickly) studies show does indeed vastly increase absorption. No clarification tho’ if that was with a lipo-carrier.

Im trying to find in my endless bookmarks the specific site i found with all studies on this, but cant locate it easily at the moment.

I’ve just been looking at other studies and scientists are trying to find a synthetic patentable method for conjuncting the curcumin molecule to better aid absorption, however this study below shows that the essential oils distilled from fresh turmeric root combined with curcumin powder, greatly increased absorption:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424351/

“This simple yet elegant concept of delivering curcumin blended with turmeric essential oils (ETO-curcumin, primarily ar-turmerones), is based upon centuries-old concepts of Indian traditional system of Ayurveda, and the resulting curcumin product is all natural. ETO curcumin has been shown to have 7 to 10-fold higher bioavailability and shown to be retained longer in systemic circulation, compared with standard curcumin.49,50 In addition, a recent rodent study demonstrated that ETO-curcumin was superior to standard curcumin in suppressing chemically induced colitis.51 Even though this curcumin extract may not have the highest bioavailability compared with other formulations, its natural composition and unique blending with turmeric essential oils vs. synthetic lipids should provide superior consumer assurance on safety-related issues. Furthermore, several studies have shown that components of essential turmeric oil themselves have anti-tumorigenic activities.”

This research reminds me of an elderly indian lady brought up in the villages of india, where she learnt how to cook from, traditional curry method centuries old. She showed me how to make this curry and accentuated that the powdered spices, including a generous turmeric amount, all had to firstly be cooked in oil...then food ingredients added, and finally water.

The anglicised version of curry is rather different in comparison!

Here’s an australian vet (veteran or veterinary practitioner i dont know!) who’s compiled a site using turmeric and how to make his version of the famed “ golden paste.”
He advocates mixing water in aswell, and also that a hard fat in the meal like linseed/hard coconut oil separately will help absorption, which is info contrary to the studies, but i think his attitude is “its better to have some fat in the meal somewhere with turmeric powder, than none at all” - this is for owners of animals who dont want to make up a batch of turmeric paste...which is superior absorption in his opinion too.
Some interesting info there nonetheless, and a page of trials he’s done...

https://www.turmericlife.com.au/pages/3-basic-ingredients

I would buy a kilo of turmeric powder and make up large batches, mixing it with gently heated coconut/linseed oil, loads of fresh ground peppercorns and refrigerating it, rather than use curcumin extract powder.
Doses then can be spooned out of large batch daily and melted and mixed into feed.
That way i would know curcumin is bound with lipids upon oral delivery, and those lipids will release lipase enabling small intestinal absorption of the whole molecule.

Turmeric powder also includes other useful compounds - some already identified, others yet to be, that will work synergistically with the anti- Inflammatory nature of curcumin. The whole plant approach always yields better results than an isolated component of a plant. Curcumin is also vastly more expensive. Turmeric organic 1kg around 10 quid.

The horses poop may even look like balls of gold!

 

[Gloi]

She's not meant to have chaff based stuff because of her teeth (getting stuck and causing inflammation)

If she's got diastemas and is not eating her hay well they might need treating again. They might be making her grumpy too.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

If she's got diastemas and is not eating her hay well they might need treating again. They might be making her grumpy too.

Its more a gingivitis (not sure i have spelt that right). I was brushing her teeth religiously every night after her feed. I must admit this has fallen by the way side lately which is bad of me i know. I will start again

 

[Templebar]

Two chestnut of mine both will pull faces and one will go to nip (although she knows she shouldn't so its mostly lips in the air) when i change or check their rugs. Both live out all the time and so ulcers are low on my list but they are both more sensitive being chestnut so i have always assumed that to be the issue and told them to get on with it. I always think its like someone ripping your coat or duvet away when they are warm too and its the cold rush against the skin.

 

[Trouper]

You say she can be like this periodically and I wonder if the mild winter might be bringing on her season early?? Certainly know of one pony in season currently. Perhaps some simple pain relief for a few days might help if you can add it to the mix?