Walking a reactive collie

[Dopeydapple]

A few times a week I walk a collie and a lab for a client, I was told the collie is not good with other dogs when on the lead but didn't realise until our first outing quite how bad, he lunges, snarls and makes such a racket when he sees one its seriously embarrassing. Obviously he's not a big powerful dog so he's easy to keep a hold of until the other dog is gone but just wondered if anyone had any advice. He's not interested in food or toys when out even when there isn't another dog so can't distract him, after the event he turns to you looking so pleased with himself for having seen the dog off. I found a walk that has a decent bit of grass next to the footpath so can take him a good distance from the other dog but sometimes can't avoid meeting them on the way there or back. Also the lab is very friendly and whines when he sees dogs as he wants to play which just seems to make things worse. Any collie experts able to offer any advice?

 

[bonny]

How old is the dog and can you let him off the lead ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Has the owner asked you to change anything or do you provide training as part of your services?
To be honest I would suggest she seek out the services of a trainer or behaviourist. But she clearly knows it's an issue and hasn't done anything to fix it yet.
If it's causing you an issue then you could ask that she seeks external help, or walk them one at a time, or decline her business.
If walking down the street and meeting other dogs is such a stressor, the dog would maybe benefit from running in an enclosed field or doing something else to burn off energy.

If it's an older dog, the behaviour will be ingrained, and if the other dog is winding it up, it will be hard to fix, especially if it doesn't care about food or toys.
You say the lab is whining because it is friendly and wants to play, that may not be the case and even if it is, that may not be how the collie perceives it.

 

[skinnydipper]

This is a hasty reply so if I think of anything else I will post again.

I have never owned a collie and I am not any kind of expert but do have a reactive dog.

It takes a lot of work. It is best to start working with the dog at a distance he is comfortable with, i.e. before he reacts to the stressor. Try not to give him the opportunity to practise the behaviour, but sometimes that is unavoidable. It is very important that you don't react to his behaviour, stay calm, don't shout at him and lose control yourself or he will think there is something for him to be worried about.

Solid obedience training is essential as you need good control. I am very much an amateur and used a mixture of techniques: getting him to focus on me, distraction - before he reacts, rewarding good behaviour - I use praise, habituation and, controversially, reassuring him and asking him to walk on. Walking alongside a co-operative owner and their dog, with both dogs on leash initially, helped. I tried the "open bar technique" with only limited success. I still don't have a perfect dog but he has improved greatly and can ignore other dogs even off leash as long as they don't come in his face. I also gave him a job to do, he has to carry his ball, though he has perfected the technique of barking without dropping it.

I think it is doubtful that you will be able to make much impression if you only walk him a few times a week. It is something that needs to be constantly reinforced.

Flooding is a technique I would avoid as it can backfire.

Constructional Aggression Treatment and Behavioural Adjustment Training only work if you can find someone kind enough to spend hours with their dog as the decoy dog and I never found anyone I felt I could ask.

Good luck, its not an easy fix and needs tons of patience.

Just read CC's post and it gives better advice than mine, I would do as she suggests because trying to fix it yourself is a huge commitment and it is not your dog.

 

[AmyMay]

I walk an on lead reactive collie (She's as good as gold off the lead). At 14 years old I'm not going to change her, so manage it. I always put her on the opposite side of any approaching dog and simply walk past them. I often warn them of the amount of fuss she's going to make if we're going to pass quite closely.

I certainly don't get embarrassed by it - it's just one of those things.

 

[Dopeydapple]

Thanks for the responses, the owner did seek help from a trainer who just wanted to distract with food which hasn't helped so they gave up. He's 7 so it's pretty ingrained in him, apparently he is fine off the lead but I don't really like letting them off " just in case", after all they aren't mine and would rather keep more control then have to explain to an owner that they got ran over chasing a squirrel or attacked by another dog they ran up to play with, besides he would still have to be on a lead in the tight spaces to the field where I could let him off. I think we will just continue to stick to places we can keep a comfortable distance as best we can and put up with the noise if we meet anything on the way 😉

 

[BBP]

I don’t have much to add as everyone else here is way more experienced than I am. I am 5 weeks into ownership of a collie puppy and am learning as I go along. But he is quite reactive and is not at all interested in normal food or toys. When he met a couple of dogs out a couple of weeks ago he was massively over excited/fearful and I only had normal dog treats/kibble with me which held no interest for him over the stress of another dog. So I have learned that any food reward in a high stress environment has to be of really high value to him.

So yesterday when I took him out to a place where I knew there would be lots of dogs I took tiny pieces of chicken and ham. As soon as I saw another dog I began to work through some of his training exercises, sit, down, back to sit, circle to left heel, step forwards etc, with the chicken keeping his attention. If his attention was drawn by the other dogs then the rewards ceased until the instant he showed calm behaviour or turned his focus to me and then he got his high value reward (piece of ham). I try to think of it not so much as distracting with food but as rewarding the moments of calm behaviour (but you have to start with accepting a second of quiet initially in a very reactive dog). The improvements using this high value food were huge vs the kibble and barring a few seconds of over excited hysteria he was a real pleasure to take out. Obviously he is a puppy and at an impressionable age but it did teach me that the reward you use is very important to the dogs willingness to listen. Hopefully the owners will put some more work in. Good luck.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Also if the dog isn't hungry, it don't be interesred in food. Always train hungry. I do start with kibble as you can break out the high value reward if you hit a major problem

 

[Dopeydapple]

I totally agree with you CC however his owners just leave feed for them all day so obviously he is never hungry and food holds no value for him as he's never had to work for it. As said I think it's best to just continue as I am as without the owners there's really nothing I can do on a few short walks per week but thought I would just check if I was missing a trick. On a much happier note if anyone read a previous post of mine about the malamute x akita who's owner was too scared to walk him, she now takes him out herself every day and we have had a few trips to an enclosed field so he can have a proper run.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Good news

 

[MotherOfChickens]

for those of you with collies not interested in food-you can get them obsessed about a toy instead-I've used this with both collies I've had. currently obsession toy is a small, rabbit skin tuggy that fits up my sleeve/in my pocket but I did use a squeaky ball back in the day.

 

[skinnydipper]

Malamute X Akita, who would ever think that was a good mix? You certainly seem to get your share of problem dogs.

To add to my previous post, though I am not sure you need my advice as you seem very experienced:

Once the dog has started to react you've lost that round. Timing is crucial or you could be inadvertently rewarding the wrong behaviour. It is a minefield as even moving away is rewarding to the dog, I do it anyway rather than stress him further.

Keeping a reactive dog under threshold is the ideal but we live in the real world and it is virtually impossible, unless you walk at the dead of night. I do go out of my way to avoid walking into people to give him the space he needs.

 

[Moobli]

I would echo CC advice. It isn't your dog and so any training really needs to come from the owner on a daily basis. It sounds as though they have tried using a trainer with little success. Management is all you can really do and I too would not be happy letting a dog off lead that wasn't my own as too many things can go wrong.

Border collies are a sensitive breed and can often react negatively to strange dogs, fast moving objects or loud noises.

Good news about the Mal x Akita.

 

[BBP]

for those of you with collies not interested in food-you can get them obsessed about a toy instead-I've used this with both collies I've had. currently obsession toy is a small, rabbit skin tuggy that fits up my sleeve/in my pocket but I did use a squeaky ball back in the day.

Mine doesn’t get obsessed by toys yet and won’t eat kibble as a treat, he’s completely ungreedy. Thankfully the chicken seems to be interesting enough to get through most situations so far.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Mine doesn’t get obsessed by toys yet and won’t eat kibble as a treat, he’s completely ungreedy. Thankfully the chicken seems to be interesting enough to get through most situations so far.

you get them obsessed with the toy-you don't wait for them to get obsessed with one. play with one with much excitement, take it away while they are at the peak of excitement-they never get the toy without you being there, they never get the chance to switch off from it etc etc. I dont blame dogs for not wanting to be rewarded with kibble, I'd not either! current collie is not lead reactive (but did have to learn how to play with toys in order for me to train him effectively) but the last one was-distraction with the toy worked a treat.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My dog is 7 and will still nearly take my hand off for kibble, food drive is food drive. It's a bit like drive for the ball or toy, it might not come so easily but you can build it.

 

[Moobli]

you get them obsessed with the toy-you don't wait for them to get obsessed with one. play with one with much excitement, take it away while they are at the peak of excitement-they never get the toy without you being there, they never get the chance to switch off from it etc etc. I dont blame dogs for not wanting to be rewarded with kibble, I'd not either! current collie is not lead reactive (but did have to learn how to play with toys in order for me to train him effectively) but the last one was-distraction with the toy worked a treat.

This is how I trained my GSD. I built his drive and focus on a specific toy by the methods you describe and then it came in extremely handy when in new situations where he may have been out of his comfort zone as I played with the ball around other dogs, busy parks, noisy roads etc. His focus was on his toy but his peripheral vision took in everything else going on but he never worried about it. He is now totally ball mad, which can be a bit of a pain in itself but is far preferable to his being focused on everything except me.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Competition should help build a toy drive. You walk with a Labrador, perfect competitive companion!

We’ve gone from a lunging, snarling, going to kill you dog to one who ignores other dogs because he’s super keen to find the ball first. I would have never believed I could let mine off with the possibility of other dogs in the vicinity. Now he’s too busy retrieving to worry about other dogs (unless they barrel over to him, different scenario).

You can build the prey/ball drive, you just need to make it exciting and worthwhile. It’s a game changer.

 

[Clodagh]

Sorry, OP, this is off topic! The breeder of our spaniel told us to use ball drive to train her, not food. BUT she is completely obsessed with food so I have used treats instead. Will that come back to bite me I wonder? Trouble is she will be a hunter/retriever so I am not sure how to work it. OH takes her for her first lesson next week so maybe best to ask breeder. I don't ever use tennis balls as the labs are so totally pbsessed with them, they lose the plot completely if I have one with me.

All those of you who remember me saying I have never used treats...now I have a spaniel my training snobbery has lessened!

 

[Moobli]

Sorry, OP, this is off topic! The breeder of our spaniel told us to use ball drive to train her, not food. BUT she is completely obsessed with food so I have used treats instead. Will that come back to bite me I wonder? Trouble is she will be a hunter/retriever so I am not sure how to work it. OH takes her for her first lesson next week so maybe best to ask breeder. I don't ever use tennis balls as the labs are so totally pbsessed with them, they lose the plot completely if I have one with me.

All those of you who remember me saying I have never used treats...now I have a spaniel my training snobbery has lessened!

I am of the belief that you use what works. If training treats motivate and reward a dog - why not use them? For the sheepdogs the only reward they want is to continue to work and a kind word. For my shepherds, I mix up the rewards. They are both ball driven but will also work for food and sometimes food is more appropriate as the ball can send them into hyper space or sometimes a play on a tuggy, or a fuss is adequate.

 

[Clodagh]

I am of the belief that you use what works. If training treats motivate and reward a dog - why not use them? For the sheepdogs the only reward they want is to continue to work and a kind word. For my shepherds, I mix up the rewards. They are both ball driven but will also work for food and sometimes food is more appropriate as the ball can send them into hyper space or sometimes a play on a tuggy, or a fuss is adequate.

The labs just want to retrieve, they are mad for it. If I put the game bag on, or even wear my 'working' trousers they have complete melt downs. If they are retriieving they will not eat any treats, they just want the dummy. So I see what you mean about self rewarding behaviour, and how easy it is to use that to train. The spaniel though just wants to hunt, at the end of the day that is why we got her and in September 2019 it will be useful, but at the moment I am having to stop her self gratifying, as hunting to please herself is not allowed. This is hard! I suppose no different to you not allowing your collies to round up sheep when they haven't been asked to, how do you train that on/off?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I am of the belief that you use what works.

yep, I dont really understand why treats are frowned upon by some (not aimed at Clodagh). With Quarrie I used treats and fuss-dog lives to be told he's done a good job and he also gets some food rewards now.
With Fitz it was tricky, he's madly food obsessed but I found it difficult with him to use food as he was missing what he was being treated for (thats a new word btw). That could have been my timing but it doesnt matter if it was really-he's an anxious dog that if he feels any sort of pressure will switch off and not learn anything. so we switched to a toy and fuss and have had much better results.


eta I guess if you're training for a specific job its different. Quarrie's reward for retrieving is to retrieve again-and his reward for waiting/leaving the dummy is to go get the dummy. I use food less and less as he gets older, have found the rewarding him with what he really wants to be way more powerful. I am rambling, hangover-soz.

 

[Clodagh]

yep, I dont really understand why treats are frowned upon by some (not aimed at Clodagh). .

I always thought they were a cop out for proper training - no longer!!

 

[Moobli]

I suppose no different to you not allowing your collies to round up sheep when they haven't been asked to, how do you train that on/off?

Before we even take pups to sheep we train a lie down and "that'll do" recall. It isn't surprising that the first few times they get to sheep there is no way on earth they want to stop, but having an older dog to hold up the sheep (to enable us to catch an errant pup) helps. Recalling a pup, and when he complies, allowing him to then go again also helps stop him from thinking the recall means the end to "play". Some dogs are just hard wired to work and even when just out on the hill for exercise and down time they are constantly scanning the horizon for sheep, but if you get enough control over the dog when he is young he knows he isn't allowed to just go off and help himself. Kennels/runs are also essential for many a young (and not so young) sheepdog who would happily go off and find himself a job if he was left unattended around a yard.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Kennels/runs are also essential for many a young (and not so young) sheepdog who would happily go off and find himself a job if he was left unattended around a yard.

ha, I remember driving home one evening and seeing the neighbouring farm's collie having rounded up some ewes to a gate. no sign of anyone else around-I gave them a phone and he'd got out lol.

 

[Clodagh]

Before we even take pups to sheep we train a lie down and "that'll do" recall. It isn't surprising that the first few times they get to sheep there is no way on earth they want to stop, but having an older dog to hold up the sheep (to enable us to catch an errant pup) helps. Recalling a pup, and when he complies, allowing him to then go again also helps stop him from thinking the recall means the end to "play". Some dogs are just hard wired to work and even when just out on the hill for exercise and down time they are constantly scanning the horizon for sheep, but if you get enough control over the dog when he is young he knows he isn't allowed to just go off and help himself. Kennels/runs are also essential for many a young (and not so young) sheepdog who would happily go off and find himself a job if he was left unattended around a yard.

Yes, that makes sense. Not so easy with rabbits, we even have them in the garden! Long line for now, in high risk areas.

 

[Clodagh]

ha, I remember driving home one evening and seeing the neighbouring farm's collie having rounded up some ewes to a gate. no sign of anyone else around-I gave them a phone and he'd got out lol.

We used to have pony club camp here and the DC had a working collie (she had sheep). He used to go everywhere with her and when he was here he used to round up the chickens, he never hurt one but gently bellycrawled and moved them until he had them either in their stable or by her car. Poor chickens! He did it so gently he never scared them enough to fly over him and away, he just couldn't help himself.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Sorry, OP, this is off topic! The breeder of our spaniel told us to use ball drive to train her, not food. BUT she is completely obsessed with food so I have used treats instead. Will that come back to bite me I wonder? Trouble is she will be a hunter/retriever so I am not sure how to work it. OH takes her for her first lesson next week so maybe best to ask breeder. I don't ever use tennis balls as the labs are so totally pbsessed with them, they lose the plot completely if I have one with me.

All those of you who remember me saying I have never used treats...now I have a spaniel my training snobbery has lessened!

First two were deeply disinterested in food as babies, particularly when out. Current two are very food driven. I guess use what works. I don’t use food at all for rewards, the most highly prized toy is a rabbit fur covered tennis ball, everything else will be dropped for it.