War Update: Harry = 1, Me = 1, Stalemate = 2

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Festive_Felicitations

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A rather long war report - however ideas if you make it to the end would be appreciated.

At the beginning of last week Harry was going great guns. We seemed to have gotten over the 'jump on Felicity' game and were going for long walks in hand. Standing quietly to have a bridle put on, feet mucked out & rasped. Lunging in a very grown up fashion with loose side reins to the headcollar etc. I though he was enjoying life as I was no longer beating him up daily, I certainly was!

Well I don't know what happened Thursday pm but since last Friday it has been war :cool:

Fri pm was going to just go for a walk as I was tired, but as he was leaping about decided to lunge first (in just a headcollar - mistake 1?) Well after about 2 circles he stopped dead whirled to face me and went straight up on his hind legs. I ignored him and suggested he went back to trotting circles he did - sort of - obviously in afoul tember kick out out at the whip, grabbing the rope in his mouth and leaping around. Just as I was about to call it a day he went up on his hind legs again, and as I didn't want him to finish on that note pushed on.

To cut a long story short he spent alot of time on his hind legs and demonstrating his natural talent for performing textbook capriole, courbette, the mezair, the croupade, and levade. Personally I'd rather Piaffe and Passage... :rollseyes: All of this earned a firm NO and lots of growling/swearing.
Managed to end on a goodish note in that we went for a short walk with no major arguments (he was juat a bit tired at this point) and lots of 'good boy' pats.

Unfortunately due to work I only had time to feed and a pat at him (while dodging teeth :mad: ) till Sunday pm - Round 2.
Well this is the one he won. I put the side reins on in an attempt to give me the upper had, well it failed not only can he perform all of the above with side-reins he got angry enough to start coming at me across the circle on his hind legs and making dedicated attempts to kick me in passing - needless to say this earnt him an earful and a few solind belts with the whip (I know, I know your not meant to hit horses with the lunging whip).
He was getting dangerous enough to scare me (not that easy) and he got what he wanted basically barged back to his field, stood long enough to take everything off then buggered off. He'd also managed to strain all the mucsle in my left arm.

Round 3 was Wed PM - after talks with mum decided to try and 'old irish' (?) trick of putting the sircingle (spell?) & side-reins on in his field and leaving him to fight it out on his own with me not present. Theory being getting it though his thick skull that no matter what he does he can't get them off. I hid in the shed where I have full view of his field incase he got into trouble. Well he fought :eek: and after 3/4 hour appeared to give in so I went and caught him gave him a brush and a quick lunge stopping before we got into a major fight but he was still going-up on his hind legs etc. Stalemate 1.

This morning's aim was not to pick a fight and try and go for a walk. When he went up on his hind legs and made a good attempt at boxing my ears I went 'ape shite' at him. I 'went up on mine' and growled and basically chased him away (while he was still on his hind-legs! Sort of worked in that he stopped rearing and kept out of my space but refused to lead any where at all. Eventually got him back in his field. Stalemate 2

The thing is none of the above has been done with laid back ears, or any form of evil bad tampered expresions. When he comes down from his rears he stand 4 square, neck arched, ears pricked watching you as if to say: Well? What ya' going to ey? Beat that punk!

So this weekend we are swapping him and Beau around as mum has a good round yard close at hand and hopefully with slightly better facilities we can have a few all out fights in a safer environment (for both of us) and have us win and get it though his skull that buckling down is better than fighting.

We did find out recently that his dad was gelded recently (at 7) and we're beginning to wonder if there was a good reason behind it.... :cool:

Anyway any ideas on how to win this battle? Or reassuring stories of people who owned demon babies that turned into super 'adults' would be nice.

Tangerine or Pink Lady apple if you got this far! ;)
 
Gosh, he does want to be the dominant one, doesn't he?! It doesn't sound like much fun. I haven't got anything useful to suggest I'm afraid, but I can offer long-distance moral support!

Is he still entire?
 
Crikey, the little toad.
Umm, have you tried lungeing him without the sidereins, but to a bridle, with lunge rein through inside bit ring, over top of head, through outside ring, and clipped to inside ring - so, it is very held and stable, but definitely to the mouth if he's v naughty.
i'd bin the sidereins for the forseeable future because it sounds as if they're stopping him from thinking forwards.
if you aren't already i would summon up your most Ferocious Sergeant Major Voice to do a 100 decibel WALK ON or GO FORWARD the moment he even thinks about playing around. they can't object to the voice the way they can to the whip imho... and if you're ferocious enough they can be very impressed by it! ;) ;)
if he's the sort who might just set off on the lunge without side reins on, i'd loop the lunge rein behind your back so you can lean back into it to anchor him.
obv i would always be wearing hat, good gloves and body protector while persuading aforementioned little toad that it is My Way or the Highway...
 
I've been letting rip at him vocally :D In my most terrifying Chilean groom voice and a choice selection of spanish swear words (I learnt from one of the best how to shout horses into submission!)

I agree the side reins are annoying him but he is a little bit easier to control with them on... He is no better with out them and I do try with out at first. Will try and percervere without them at all for a few days and see where we end up.

Hard hat & gloves check, BP being collected at the weekend. Mud ski-ing perfected? Check! :cool:
Will try the bridle thing in the morning - if you never hear from me again you can guess it backfiered... :eek: ;)

Thanks for the ideas!
 
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Do you have access to a round pen?

Mine was NOWHERE near as naughty as yours, but she did try to not go forwards, and show the whole world her tummy on a regular basis.

I found it very easy to keep driving her forwards when loose in the round pen - sometimes it did take a smack on the bottom with the lunge whip when the feet were flying!
 
Def echo Kerilli's idea but also why not cut out the hard feed? it won't kill him for a few days and will help you no end as it could be contributing to the vicious cycle whereas with no feed at least if you tire him out and get through to him he's not all pepped up again the next day! What is he by?
 
Some really good suggestions above, all I would add is make sure you have someone with you for moral support, things can seem a lot less scary when you have reassurance from the side lines. Whizzing you lots of positive vibes from here, to say keep going, hopefully perseverence will win the day! :)
 
Blimey o'riley, he sounds 'challenging'!! Fwiw, my mare had a very very stroppy refusing to go forwards phase. She went for bootcamp with my instructor, and we really turned a corner in day one by chasing her round a round pen with two lunge whips.... Not the prettiest of sights, and a method that would no doubt horrify many on here, but it pushed home the message that it was forwards or nothing, and we were in charge! We found that we really needed two people in the pen, both armed with lunge whips - one to drive from behind and one to keep her out on the circle. We weren't shy of making a bit of contact with the whips if the behaviour warranted it.... Lots of vocal stuff too - growling (and swearing!) when she was bad, but loads and loads of praise as soon as she was compliant.

Once we progressed to lunging we started each session with a really forwards canter, pushing her on if she looked to be backing off at all. This established the forward thinking, and we could then move on to trying to get a nice trot, nice transitions, polite halt etc.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

PS I should add that my horse was green but had been backed for some time before the bootcamp - she knew how to lunge, but was going through a no-I-won't-go-forwards phase. I'm not sure I would be quite so hard on a completely unbacked horse, but maybe needs must in your case. Hmmmm.
 
Felicity_09 said:
I've been letting rip at him vocally :D In my most terrifying Chilean groom voice and a choice selection of spanish swear words (I learnt from one of the best how to shout horses into submission!)
Click to expand...

Ah, marvellous. My Spanish isn't good enough, but I have found that both horses and dogs respond phenomenally well to Obergruppenführerish German... ;) ;)

If he's rearing at you then a soft rope (plaited is ideal, i think it's called a wip-*** or something) across the tummy (or a whip flick perhaps) is a good way of getting them to put their paws back on the floor where they should be... the tummy's vulnerable and sometimes they need reminding that it isn't a very good idea to display it. ;) ;)
I assumed that you'd already knocked all hard feed etc on the head.
Is he bored and being naughty because of it? Are there other things you can do? Will he be led around to look at new stuff etc, or is he fighting you about everything at the moment?
 
Hard feed was cut out on Sunday when it became apparent that this wasn't just a one off bad mood incident. Hay has been changed from medow and lucerne to straight medow. Unfortunately I can't cut out all hay as its winter and there is nothing in the field.

Katie_A - the 2 whips and chasing is the plan of attack this weekend when I have mum to help though we are planning on starting with us outside the round yard given current behavoir.

K - will aim for his tummy next time he goes up, so far I've been more concerned about keeping away from me....
He may be a bit bored as he has no one in with him - sadly not an option. But he has lots too look at and a lots of toys (ropes, a ball) and I see him twice a day.
When I could get him out last week we were going for long walks, and jogs and I think he really enjoyed them but at the moment he is reufsing to even get as far as the gate.

I can't blame him for not being delighted to see me becasue, apart from last week, it is not pleasant at the moment. I've tried being nice/understanding of the fact that he is baby, being made to do stuff is a shock to the system as he has done what he likes for the 1st 3 years of his life etc
But he has to have some respect for me not just try and box my ears.

Thanks everyone for you ideas and good luck wishes, its nice being able to moan at an understanding audience ;)
 
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I'd definitely remove the side reins completely. Feeling restricted is why he is going up.
It all depends on how capable you are at lungeing to be honest, with horses like this there are two options, ensure you stay slightly behind him and just chase him round with the whip until you get any sort of forward movement. Just be very certain he understands what you are asking before you have a fight, we ask ours to walk round on a tiny circle first with us touching them with the lunge whip to keep their distance, I sort of wonder if he isn't quite sure of what you are asking?
If he does know how to lunge and is just being difficult then use two lunge lines through a driving roller with terrets back to your hands. You can loop the outside one round his back end to your hand and it will mean he can't turn in on you. It may even be you need someone else to weild the whip to encourage him forwards whilst you use the long reins to keep him on the circle.
I would be satisfied with any shape circle from this horse, move with him yourself so he can keep moving forwards and do your best not to turn it into a battle. Learning how to battle soon becomes the norm for a difficult horse, and you really need to nip this in the bud now.
As K said a flick under the belly usually brings most horses down to ground, but the side reins are your problem I am sure, ditch them, let him feel free and forward thinking and I reckon before too long he will be fine. Another very old trick is for someone to loop a soft rope through his bridle holding both ends in one hand, and ride another horse round the outside of the circle leading him, once he gets going they pull the rope away and just ride next to him at trot, with you taking over the commands over.
|Oh and we always lunge from the bit threaded over the head too, it ensures control and in skilled hands does no harm whatsoever.
 
Thanks for the suggestions Henryhorn will slowly try them all to see what works...

The side reins are very loose as in they hang in loops 90% of the time and only really come into effect if he tries to put his head on the ground. The inital 'explosion' occured when I tried to lunge without them...
He does know perfectly well what he is meant to be doing but has decided that he'd rather NOT.
 
henryhorn said:
I'd definitely remove the side reins completely. Feeling restricted is why he is going up.
It all depends on how capable you are at lungeing to be honest, with horses like this there are two options, ensure you stay slightly behind him and just chase him round with the whip until you get any sort of forward movement. Just be very certain he understands what you are asking before you have a fight, we ask ours to walk round on a tiny circle first with us touching them with the lunge whip to keep their distance, I sort of wonder if he isn't quite sure of what you are asking?
If he does know how to lunge and is just being difficult then use two lunge lines through a driving roller with terrets back to your hands. You can loop the outside one round his back end to your hand and it will mean he can't turn in on you. It may even be you need someone else to weild the whip to encourage him forwards whilst you use the long reins to keep him on the circle.
I would be satisfied with any shape circle from this horse, move with him yourself so he can keep moving forwards and do your best not to turn it into a battle. Learning how to battle soon becomes the norm for a difficult horse, and you really need to nip this in the bud now.
As K said a flick under the belly usually brings most horses down to ground, but the side reins are your problem I am sure, ditch them, let him feel free and forward thinking and I reckon before too long he will be fine. Another very old trick is for someone to loop a soft rope through his bridle holding both ends in one hand, and ride another horse round the outside of the circle leading him, once he gets going they pull the rope away and just ride next to him at trot, with you taking over the commands over.
|Oh and we always lunge from the bit threaded over the head too, it ensures control and in skilled hands does no harm whatsoever.
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Just to reiterate two points in this "voice of experience" post for emphasis . . . even very loose side reins have an effect and they can irritate some horses MORE if they are swinging. I had one a little while ago that couldn't tolerate ANY mouth pressure and would only go if the reins were either removed or secured snugly so they didn't wiggle. She didn't toss her head around or back off, she bucked for England, spun to face you, charged off etc. After we backed her I finally convinced the owner and her vet to investigate more thoroughly and they found - after some time and trouble - a significantly fractured front molar. I'm not saying your horse is in pain (frankly, even if he is, his behaviour is unacceptable and you can't even start to investigate if he has a point until he works with you a bit) but just as a note that things are not always as they seem - no one watching the aforementioned horse casually would have seen the pattern or suspect a mouth issue.

And on the "understanding what the driving aids mean" point, I've just been reminded of this, too, by a horse that definitely did not understand that the stick meant go forward, she was sure it meant "stop" or, if pressed "buck". The first day was grim as I just had to keep asking until she made the connection - at one point she stopped and dug a HUGE hole in her confusion and anxiety. The second day she started off not great then remembered the previous lesson, then ran through the same stages much more quickly. The third day she went off the stick like a normal horse and it hasn't been a significant problem since. But she genuinely did not understand, despite having been hit many times, and everyone up to this point assumed she did understand and was just being difficult. I'm sure she had an original reason for it going the way it did, but mostly it had become a habituated response. I see reactions along that spectrum all the time. I always check to see if I get that little "snap" in the horse from the longewhip/stick, not just that the horse goes when I happen to be using the stick, as that's not definitive.

It's so hard to say without seeing, but I've had a couple of similar horses to work with. One, the first time I longed it, about 20 people materialised to watch!!:eek: It ran at me both rearing/snapping and in reverse gear as well - I'm sure the onlookers got their money worth. He did come around quite quickly but I'll admit we had a real "come to Jesus meeting" as my friend calls it, where I just booked out a completely open time and kept at it. It wasn't pretty and I can count how many horses I've had similar discussions with on one hand, but his next stop was the can so there wasn't anything to lose. Again, it took a couple of days to "stick" and we had some bumps along the way when we got to other tasks he objected to, but he did get with the program quite quickly and went on to be a very good jumping horse.

So there is hope. :)

All that said, I'd agree don't get into a battle you can't win. Is there anything he consistently likes doing? Can you "trick" him into behaving and then extend the boundaries?

Do you know the horse's breeding? This inclination does seem to run in families. (Coincidentally, I'd worked for the people who owned the sire of the above horse, so maybe part of my advantage was I wasn't too surprised by his behaviour. ;) ) It doesn't change anything but if his family does contain similar reprobates their experiences might give you some more likely to be useful tools to try.
 
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Thanks for the words of wisdom Tarr Steps.
I am taking on everything everyone has said about the sidereins and will definetly be scrapping them for the forseeable future and going back to basics. It just seems odd the order in which things have panned out - but the maybe it makes total sense to Harry :cool:

Teeth is something I've been planing on having looked at mainly becasue he likes chewing anything so much, however he is still teething so that could be why.

He lunged very well for 2 weeks before this started and seemed to have the move away from the stick concept. We did spend a week very slowly introducing the whip and lunging as his default reaction is to move into pressure not away.

We do know his breeding and I'm planning on calling the owners of his sire today to ask for some more information about temprament. Met his mum and she seemed perfectly aimable and laid back, though she was just chilling in a field.

The only thing he appeared to like doing (aprat from eating) was going for walks but at the moment I can't even do (well not brave enough to try) that as I'm too likely to loose a chunk of arm or have my ears boxed.

In all fairness to him I should say that once I managed to lead him to the trailer last night he walked straight in on his own - like a total Pro. Stood quietly while I did the ramp up, travelled well and came off at the other end very sedately.
 
Having had a youngster who liked to beat up humans, I can heartily recommend the help of a more dominant, grown up and sensible horse. I have a boss mare who put said youngster firmly in its place in the field after a two week battle of wills (no one was hurt), and who I then led the youngster with - at the slightest sign of misbehaviour both she and I would turn on the youngster, who decided fairly quickly that two against one wasn't funny and stopped being a *****. Said youngster has been safe for years now, but still has a streak in her, and has to be in a field with a more dominant horse or she starts trying to push it with everyone except me (our battles were legendary lol, she's not forgotten those!).

Seems like your guy is used to being in charge in the field, and doesn't see why he should do what someone else asks him.
 
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