Warmblood Breeder's Studbook Stallions Report

Congratulations MD_bec!! Is Boston bred by Karen Jones/Lockyers Stud? If so, I remember seeing him as a foal and he was stunning then!
 
thank you Wisnette
yes we bought him & his brother from karen at lockyers last year
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Gosh yes, MD_bec, huge congratulations!

As we were not eligible for the championships and had a long drive ahead we didn't stay til the end.
However, I saw your lad in the jumping section and his movement was spine tingling!
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What are the future plans for him?
 
Bananaman
Thank you & ditto, thought your boy had so much presence, infact have some very nice hi-def video footage of him - PM me if you like?
Not sure of future plans at moment, lots of phone calls recieved since Sunday!
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Yes, although you can't see Spider's.
I have to admit I'm disappointed with the photos, most of the stallions were gorgeous but you wouldn't know it from these shots.
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The moving shots are generally better but sadly but none of Spider moving which is what he does best!
The ones of Boston floating off the floor are lovely.
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does anyone know how the chestnut stallion at the end of the morning did? handled by phoenix national stud?? not on the website maybe a new stallion for next year
 
Hi Foxfolly,

I'm not too sure why Calloot didn't grade, but the judge did mention that his conformation wasn't up to standard. Perhaps they didn't think his paces covered the ground enough compared to the others? He was quite a 'chunky chappie' as my friend put it, but his jumping was amazing!
 
Thanks, it just surprised me and Mum a lot.

But is suppose we didn't see him close up, worries me about my boy not being up to standard... I'll have to get some good pics and get everyone to do a conformation critique on him!!
 
Just back from WBFSH General Assembly (more info when I have had time to digest it all :-)) but must start by congratulating Spider and all his connections in person now that I am able to:-). He showed superb presence, was outstandingly correct and really filled the eye, so well done.

And well done too to Boston, a super sort produced to the very top of his form (ie he would certainly not have looked out of place in the final selection in any studbook in mainland Europe and I rarely say that in the UK :-)) and a worthy champion. I must admit I also liked Lee's Breitling colt -- as much for his delightful calm temerpament as anything else -- and I am sure he will be both another star for Lee and a very useful husband for all those well-bred but very scatty mares we all have in the back paddock <ROFL>

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Hi Foxfolly,

I'm not too sure why Calloot didn't grade, but the judge did mention that his conformation wasn't up to standard. Perhaps they didn't think his paces covered the ground enough compared to the others? He was quite a 'chunky chappie' as my friend put it, but his jumping was amazing!

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I'm afradi it is a classic example of the truth of Dr Haring's saying that a stallion must be a riding horse plus. He may have been able to jump but IMHO his conformation did leave quite a bit to be desired and in-hand he was not the most impresssive mover. That, and his rather old-fashioned type (chunky is a nice polite word for it) mean that he is not really what the studbooks of today are looking for, and he could just as well compete in jumping as a gelding without any negative effect on the stock being produced in future years. The Midt-West Ibi Light/Diamond (?) colt was another example of one of the entries that would have made a nice riding gelding but was never going to be a stallion and the one sad thing about these gradings (for whatever UK studbook is concerned) is that a worrying number of colt owners are stil not able to see just how unsuitable their youngsters are as stallion prospects even after nearly 30 years of public stallion gradings here. But hopefully eventually the message will hit home some time.

BTW, although UK studbooks often have slight differences of emphasis in type as to what they grade Calloot also failed with SHBGB for pretty much the same reason so perhaps the owners will take the hint now and give him the snip so that he can jump to his heart;s content without hindrance of BSJA stallion rules.
 
I suppose that is fair enough, they have their type that they wish to promote and he didn't fit the criteria. Also can fully understand if his conformation was questionable. As I said above I wasn't near enough to judge that.. only saw the jumping!

I would imagine his owner would keep his balls, with the temperament he had I would suspect he could easily go through the BSJA assessment, which I assume he can do to be able to compete?!
wait til he makes it big time in competition... then hope he gets invited back... bit like Chilli morning!!
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Oh Pippa I missed this!!! Fantabulous news!!! I absolutely ADORE Spider and loved meeting him and getting cuddles! His successes couldn't ha[[en to a more ldeserving owner and producer!!! I was asked a while back if I was going to keep Matilda and breed her to him........ interesting question don't you think lmao!!!
 
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I suppose that is fair enough, they have their type that they wish to promote and he didn't fit the criteria. Also can fully understand if his conformation was questionable. As I said above I wasn't near enough to judge that.. only saw the jumping!

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As a member of the audience for the loose jumping you would have had ample opportunity to assess his conformation whilst he was waiting around between runs down the lane -- and even if he was on the move all the time his type would have been evident as this is the overall impression the creates horse which can probably be viewed better from afar anyway:-).

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I would imagine his owner would keep his balls, with the temperament he had I would suspect he could easily go through the BSJA assessment, which I assume he can do to be able to compete?!

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The BSJA assessment is not only based upon jumping ability, which is why only two passed at Towerlands a couple of week ago. The BSJA grading judges (of whom Geoff Glazzard who grades for both the AES and SSH and who was the sj judge at the Futurity final this year is one and whose judgement I certainly respect) are looking for the sort of quality that they think will grade with one of the studbooks when finally presented. Also this approval is only for 12 months anyway by which time the stallion will be required to have been graded as a stallion by a recognised studbook in order to continue competing in BSJA classes. So no escape clause for unworthy stallions there either :-)). I have a feeling that the £1000 dispensation fee is also only for the first 12 months as well but I may be wrong there.

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wait til he makes it big time in competition... then hope he gets invited back... bit like Chilli morning!!
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Given the above, I don't think there is much of a chance for him as a jumping stallion with the BSJA, so being invited back on winnings is not at all likely for him for either WBBUK or SHBGB. Unlike Chilli Morning -- whose problem lay in solely in his inexperience and lack of competition record rather than any conformational or type problems -- whatever Caloot does in the way of performance cannot compensate in stallion grading terms in any studbook for the shortcomings of what they refer to in Europe as 'fundament'.

Well, thats my opinion anyway, but then what do I know about grading stallions?<ROFL>
 
I hope you didn't take offence at my previous post as it was by no means meant to belittle yours... But I am feeling that your post is now having a bit of a pop at me for not seeing that he wasn't the right type!

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As a member of the audience for the loose jumping you would have had ample opportunity to assess his conformation whilst he was waiting around between runs down the lane -- and even if he was on the move all the time his type would have been evident as this is the overall impression the creates horse which can probably be viewed better from afar anyway:-). ?

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I have never claimed to be anything more than I am, and am certainly no expert on stallion gradings, yes I can say if I like a horse or not, and I think I have a good eye for a nice horse... but please don't belittle my comments as if it should have been glaringly obvious... maybe it is to those who are experienced at this, but no it wasn't to me which is why I genuinely asked and I apologise if you feel I should have known, but be fair, we all have to learn somewhere which is why I went in the first place.

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The BSJA assessment is not only based upon jumping ability, which is why only two passed at Towerlands a couple of week ago. The BSJA grading judges (of whom Geoff Glazzard who grades for both the AES and SSH and who was the sj judge at the Futurity final this year is one and whose judgement I certainly respect) are looking for the sort of quality that they think will grade with one of the studbooks when finally presented. Also this approval is only for 12 months anyway by which time the stallion will be required to have been graded as a stallion by a recognised studbook in order to continue competing in BSJA classes. So no escape clause for unworthy stallions there either :-)). I have a feeling that the £1000 dispensation fee is also only for the first 12 months as well but I may be wrong there.?!

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I appreciate your knowledge on this, its interesting to know more about it.
As I said I felt he had a lot of jumping ability so maybe my amateur view again...But I think you might be wrong re the registration, the way I read it you can keep going so long as you stump up the rediculous registation fees..(£500 for 4 & 5yo's and £1000 or a stallion over 6) and obviously your stalllion behaves himself and doesn't get banned!!

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Given the above, I don't think there is much of a chance for him as a jumping stallion with the BSJA, so being invited back on winnings is not at all likely for him for either WBBUK or SHBGB. Unlike Chilli Morning -- whose problem lay in solely in his inexperience and lack of competition record rather than any conformational or type problems -- whatever Caloot does in the way of performance cannot compensate in stallion grading terms in any studbook for the shortcomings of what they refer to in Europe as 'fundament'.

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I was only joking hence the
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Only following on from what was mentioned in the earlier thread about Chilli Mornning and we all had a bit of a
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about it!! Sorry if its upset anyone!!

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Well, thats my opinion anyway, but then what do I know about grading stallions?<ROFL>

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I do appreciate your imput as although I have no idea who you are it is obvious you know hell of a lot more than I do!!

I want to learn from the experienced people on here not make enemies, I apologise if I am unknowingly getting peoples backs up with what I am posting!!
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' the old fashioned chunky type and not modern type stallion'

Can someone post various pictures or links to stallions which show this I'd like to see. Thx
 
Making a forum member ‘feel’ belittled for asking questions achieves nothing – in-fact it would almost have the reverse effect and reflect badly on the author and maybe a more ‘constructive/educational’ reply could have been made. (Although I don’t disagree with what ciss wrote).

While totally in agreement with the requirement for today’s sport horses/sires to be of modern type and more than just a riding horse, it was interesting to see that one of the stallions who successfully graded was commented upon by a friend (and one of Ciss’s respected experts) as likely to become
an old fashioned model/type later in life.
 
But that is one of the points that always comes up at gradings - no one has a crystal ball. So they have to judge on what they see on the day, good or bad. There have been many stallions that passed by the skin of their teeth - and a few who famously didn't but who found success later, although the fact that the same couple of examples always come up would suggest it's not as common as people might like to believe - who have excelled, perhaps because of extremely correct production, perhaps because of late maturity, perhaps because sometimes you never can tell. After all, they are still babies!

Also, books do recognise that there needs to be a selection of stallions available so they have nothing to lose by accepting an otherwise exceptional individual who might mature slightly lighter or heavier than the breed standard, especially if it looks more or less as desired at presentation, since that suggests it's not going to get too far off in the end. A horse that is already very heavy or clearly way behind in maturity and consequently very light is not as good a bet as it is UNLIKELY to mature close to the ideal. If by some fluke it does (apparently Chilli Morning's situation) then great, represent without prejudice.

I took a horse to a Hanovarian inspection once that had been bred from an old mare by a dead stallion, particularly because the owners wanted an "old style" horse. Not surprisingly, he was turned down because, as the Chief Inspector said, what's the point in going backwards? The blood was already available in many other stallions, many more modern, and even in a few "throwbacks" that were more old type.

Also, a book has little to lose by NOT taking a particular borderline stallion. Remember it's a "big picture" numbers game for the breed as a whole and there is certainly no shortage of stallions. The bigger danger, from a development point of view, is giving someone "permission" to produce other than the desired type. In fact many books can "unapprove" at least young stallions if their first crops are consistently substandard. This may all seem extremely unfair to the stallion owners but you have to remember the goal is to produce the best horses, not to be "fair" in every possible way. After all, a grading system favours the superior model - that's kind of the point!
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There are a couple books "famous" for being far more fair and inclusive. Generally they are not respected and any competitive success they show comes from "piggy backing" on more established books but registering produce that is completely the result of the much sterner system.

I really don't think anyone is trying to belittle anyone - these discussions tend to hit nerves and not everyone agrees, which is how the world works. BUT if you present to a particular book I think it's understood one agrees with their practices and understand their standards, even if one's own horse falls short.
 
Ok for a novice what is ideal type in a warmblood - any examples of ideal and non ideal? On WBS(UK) website this is all I can find on the type/aim for their studbook

The aim of the Society is to produce sound, athletic and modern Warmblood competition horses of excellent movement and athleticism, suitable for all equestrian disciplines and to have British teams mounted on our British bred horses

And I look at the stallions graded and just picked out two of different type (to my eye).
Woodcroft Garuda K - Aldam Mill Dubloon

Are these two horses either side of the ideal standard but in spec? I just want to try and undestand the requirement in terms of type. I understand the move away from the carthorses used 50 - 100 yrs ago - but what does coarse, old stamp mean, does it mean different things to different people? Thx
 
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