Warning: Sensitive Question re: pts

[3OldPonies]

I’d like, if I may, to use this subject to ask the following question?

Can the hunt/kennels remove the horse if it’s been pts by veterinary injection? I read that only horses pts buy gun/bolt can be removed by the hunt because injection contains chemical’s harmful to the hounds? If so, apologies but how does one dispose of a horse if its been pts sleep by vet? I may loose my old mare this year and will turn to the local hunt/kennels because of the reason they can pts and take horse away all in one?

I also am of the opinion when my horse(s) go to the hunt their spirit will live on within the hounds and when I’m hunting or out in the countryside I’ll know I'm with her again - and I take great peace in that.

My mini shettie was taken by a hunt, although they were one that also operates a cremation service. They can't be fed to hounds if injected.

I like your sentiment about your horse living on through the hounds. I would never choose this option myself though as a friend who's boyfriend is a vets took her to kennels once and she told me some terrible things about them dismembering the horses. Which I suppose they have to do, but I wouldn't want that for any of my chaps unless I had absolutely no choice. But then I wouldn't chose the gun either if I could at all avoid it.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Thank you for raising this OP. Its something we all have to go through but no one talks about it. Tbh I have very little knowledge of the methods of putting a horse to sleep other than basics like injection or bullet option, and I will never allow any horse of mine to go to the hunt. No disrespect to anyone who has or would send their horse to the hunt, but I just couldnt bare the thought of my beautiful horses being dismembered and fed to the hounds.
Anyway sorry for the tangent. I just wanted to say I found this thread very informative and thank everyone for sharing their experiences.

 

[wkiwi]

I guess what happens afterwards depends on how you view life and death. I have worked in a veterinary clinic as well as had my own animals put down (and put down animals myself; including bringing a quicker end to the many injured offerings of cats) and I (personally) feel that the spirit leaves them quite quickly.
I am not at all religious but it seems to me that the body seems like an empty shell left behind within moments. Since i realised this, I have never worried what happened to the body afterwards and have had to choose different methods depending on circumstances at the time e.g. for horses the range includes burial, a local farmers dogs, greyhounds, pet food (and I know some people will cry at that one, but horse cremation hasn't been around that long and in an area with a high water table the practicalities are very limited), and the hunt. I have been lucky in that everyone I have dealt with during and after the actual moment has been extremely professional and made it as easy as possible.
I do remember a conversation around the age of 9-10 in the school playground about whether we wanted to be burnt or eaten by worms after death and i think i voted for cremation at the time because I didn't like the thought of the worms, (aren't childhood memories fascinating) but having been near death more than once myself, and seen many animals in their last moments, I really do think it is how an animal dies that is important rather than what happens after.
I think it is our modern culture that makes the topic taboo, as i know people from different cultures and races where discussing death of humans and animals is quite routine, grief is accepted and acknowledged without having to be hidden from workmates etc, which i think is easier than no one talking about it.

 

[Equine_Dream]

I guess what happens afterwards depends on how you view life and death. I have worked in a veterinary clinic as well as had my own animals put down (and put down animals myself; including bringing a quicker end to the many injured offerings of cats) and I (personally) feel that the spirit leaves them quite quickly.
I am not at all religious but it seems to me that the body seems like an empty shell left behind within moments. Since i realised this, I have never worried what happened to the body afterwards and have had to choose different methods depending on circumstances at the time e.g. for horses the range includes burial, a local farmers dogs, greyhounds, pet food (and I know some people will cry at that one, but horse cremation hasn't been around that long and in an area with a high water table the practicalities are very limited), and the hunt. I have been lucky in that everyone I have dealt with during and after the actual moment has been extremely professional and made it as easy as possible.
I do remember a conversation around the age of 9-10 in the school playground about whether we wanted to be burnt or eaten by worms after death and i think i voted for cremation at the time because I didn't like the thought of the worms, (aren't childhood memories fascinating) but having been near death more than once myself, and seen many animals in their last moments, I really do think it is how an animal dies that is important rather than what happens after.
I think it is our modern culture that makes the topic taboo, as i know people from different cultures and races where discussing death of humans and animals is quite routine, grief is accepted and acknowledged without having to be hidden from workmates etc, which i think is easier than no one talking about it.

I do see what youre saying. I completely agree that its how the deed is done that matters more than anything. When my boys time comes I want it as quick and painless as possible.
I know once its done all thats left of them is the shell. Everything that was them is gone but to me its still would be my boy, even though I know the life and spirit has left him. He has carried me, made me smile, listened to my problems and let me bury my tears in his neck. I owe him the most dignified end possible and I include the disposal of his body afterwards. The thought of him being fed to hounds would just haunt me.

 

[wkiwi]

I do see what youre saying. I completely agree that its how the deed is done that matters more than anything. When my boys time comes I want it as quick and painless as possible.
I know once its done all thats left of them is the shell. Everything that was them is gone but to me its still would be my boy, even though I know the life and spirit has left him. He has carried me, made me smile, listened to my problems and let me bury my tears in his neck. I owe him the most dignified end possible and I include the disposal of his body afterwards. The thought of him being fed to hounds would just haunt me.

I used to feel the same, but is the memories you have (very poignant) that is the part that is left - consider making a diary while you can. I have all my horses old diaries of what we did each day (started as training records but ended up with all sorts of things in). They have been in storage for at least the last 6-8 years and i recently got them sent to me; fantastic memories some of which i wouldn't have recalled without a trigger.

 

[Equine_Dream]

I used to feel the same, but is the memories you have (very poignant) that is the part that is left - consider making a diary while you can. I have all my horses old diaries of what we did each day (started as training records but ended up with all sorts of things in). They have been in storage for at least the last 6-8 years and i recently got them sent to me; fantastic memories some of which i wouldn't have recalled without a trigger.

Aww what a beautiful idea. It must be lovely to be able to relive all those precious memories. Thank you for that x

 

[touchstone]

I’d like, if I may, to use this subject to ask the following question?

Can the hunt/kennels remove the horse if it’s been pts by veterinary injection? I read that only horses pts buy gun/bolt can be removed by the hunt because injection contains chemical’s harmful to the hounds? If so, apologies but how does one dispose of a horse if its been pts sleep by vet? I may loose my old mare this year and will turn to the local hunt/kennels because of the reason they can pts and take horse away all in one?

I also am of the opinion when my horse(s) go to the hunt their spirit will live on within the hounds and when I’m hunting or out in the countryside I’ll know I'm with her again - and I take great peace in that.

I think it depends on the individual hunt, some have cremation facilities for injected horses. You can also join the Fallen Stock Company for free and they will send you a list of available options and costs in your area for euthanasia/disposal or just disposal. It sounds morbid doing it in advance, but will make it easier to decide on the day if plans are already in place.

 

[Tory27]

I think it depends on the individual hunt, some have cremation facilities for injected horses. You can also join the Fallen Stock Company for free and they will send you a list of available options and costs in your area for euthanasia/disposal or just disposal. It sounds morbid doing it in advance, but will make it easier to decide on the day if plans are already in place.

Thank you I didn't know that. Very useful to know.

 

[fathorselover]

I had the knacker man come and put my old mare to sleep- she went with her head in a bucket of carrots and apples, he was kind and professional and the deed was done with her winched up onto the truck within minutes. There was an awful lot of blood which i wasnt prepared for. Up until this point i have avoided the thought, but does anybody know what happens to the body when it is the knackerman that comes?

 

[Clodagh]

Pet food probably.

 

[3OldPonies]

Someone I knew before she moved away from the area dared to ask her knackerman - he told her very bluntly that the horse was off to become lion food at Whipsnade.

 

[fathorselover]

Thought it might be something along those lines!

 

[flaxen]

Up where i live they go for mass incineration if collected by warrens. We have a company that also do individual crem or communal crem. When i lived in gloucestershire i had a horse put down by my works knackerman ( worked in an equine vets ) she was sedated by one of the vets at work and he shot her. She went to the cotswold wildlife park at burford. He used to take shot ones there quite often as big cat food and wasnt fussed with a bit of sedation in them. If we had euth'd them with somulose or mag sulph ( in theatre only while still under ga ) they went for incineration.

If we had any greys with white tails going for routine crem/ hound food he asked us to bag their tails in rectal gloves and tape it on to keep tail clean as he sent them for rocking horses.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I guess what happens afterwards depends on how you view life and death. I have worked in a veterinary clinic as well as had my own animals put down (and put down animals myself; including bringing a quicker end to the many injured offerings of cats) and I (personally) feel that the spirit leaves them quite quickly.
I am not at all religious but it seems to me that the body seems like an empty shell left behind within moments. .

This was brought home to me quite forcefully when I had an elderly Labrador pts at home. She was lying in front of the fire on a rug, when the vet came in. The six other dogs that we had at the time were trying to get to fuss the vet but were very careful not to stand on the old girl or even bump into her. We sat the others down and the vet knelt on the rug with the Lab and did her stuff. Immediately that the vet stood up, the others, in particular a Rottweiler who had been very good with the oldie as she deteriorated, were in a frenzy trying to get the vet's attention. They took no more notice of the body than they did of the rug and stood on both with equal disregard.

We have had several horse pts over the years, using both methods and I will always choose the gun over injection if at all possible. There hasn't been much blood to clear up ime.

 

[Barnacle]

The amount of blood really just depends on what is used to shoot the horse and the angle... It doesn't mean anything more. It won't change how the horse died. I mean, it's instant regardless - so don't worry about that aspect.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

Amount of blood depends, as others have said, on the angle of entry of the bullet and which parts of the brain are destroyed by the bullet. The bullet should enter the head at such an angle that it goes straight through the frontal lobes then through the hind brain and down into the top part of the spinal cord. However, bullets occasionally deflect, horses move.. If the bullet destroys the hind brain (the part which lies just at the top of the spine) then the heart stops instantly = less blood. If that part is not completely destroyed, then the heartbeat continues to beat for a little while = more blood.
Think of it like the difference between "brain dead" and just plain "dead" in people. Either way, the horse is entirely unaware of what is happening from the instant that bullet enters the brain. That's the important thing.

 

[Illusion100]

Even with cremation, they generally have to chop the horse up a bit to fit the parts in efficiently. Most think the horse is burned intact.

If your deceased family member had to be hacked to fit into the 'oven' no-one would stand for it.

It is true, once life leaves the body all is left is an empty shell but humans aren't put into the food chain. No-one would tolerate a pack of wolves chowing down on dear old Nan.

I'm always amazed at how humans think.

We really do prioritise ourselves.

ETS: Sorry OP, I think my painkillers have Philosophical side effects, I didn't mean to divert your thread but the drugs coursing through my veins have taken over.

 

[Barnacle]

I actually would not be at all opposed to humans getting eaten by other animals after they die. I don't feel sentimental about dead bodies... Once something is dead, it's dead.

 

[Illusion100]

I actually would not be at all opposed to humans getting eaten by other animals after they die. I don't feel sentimental about dead bodies... Once something is dead, it's dead.

What do you want to feed? Polar Bear would be my option for my corpse, doubt it would get much of a meal though!

 

[maxapple]

When I had my old horse Pts he bled a lot. I wasn't expecting that (I didn't hold him so didn't see it, but had to go back to the yard with a friend to clear up in the field once he had been collected) he'd been ill and had been on lots of drugs so I assumed that might have been a contributory factor.

In terms of disposal he went to London zoo. I thought that was a nice circle of life ending for him.

 

[sula]

Illusion, no worries Alec, thank you! I don`t know that I could do what I did as a general rule but I could this time because of who it was and how well I knew her horse. It was the right thing to do and I`m glad I did it and that`s a nice way to feel.

Thank you all so much for the honesty, courtesy and understanding shown in this thread. As someone stated previously, it`s useful to talk about subjects which, for some, is considered taboo.

I, too, am very philosophical about death and view the body as the shell that housed the spirit, soul, whatever you want to call the vital spark that gives rise to life. There are rites and rituals that we go through as individuals which ease us on our rugged way through grief. I had always intended to have my horse at home but sadly events overtook us and that never happened. Perhaps it was for that reason that I chose to have his body cremated so that when we eventually have the house we have the offer on, the ashes will be buried on the land. I surprised myself that I wanted to do this as I didn`t think I was in the least bit sentimental about the remains of physical life but this was important to me. Incidentally, I was surprised by how heavy the ashes were and how large the box containing them would be.

Equally, I had always intended to ride my horse to my wedding and as this couldn`t happen either I tucked a be-ribboned lock of his mane into my bag and we had a little sugar pony on top of the cake so at least he was represented. Luckily, the very same friend whose horse I stood with, rescued him before he was eaten by my little cousin who had already consumed the tractor (I didn`t want anything to be too serious on our wedding day so had lots of little jokey things like a tractor for the OH as a nod to his background )

Actually, maybe I am getting more sentimental in my old age!

 

[fburton]

Amount of blood depends, as others have said, on the angle of entry of the bullet and which parts of the brain are destroyed by the bullet. The bullet should enter the head at such an angle that it goes straight through the frontal lobes then through the hind brain and down into the top part of the spinal cord. However, bullets occasionally deflect, horses move.. If the bullet destroys the hind brain (the part which lies just at the top of the spine) then the heart stops instantly = less blood. If that part is not completely destroyed, then the heartbeat continues to beat for a little while = more blood.

Minor quibble... The heart will continue beating if the cardiac centre in the medulla (hindbrain) is destroyed. Because the heart has its own pacemaker inside it, it won't just stop. Whether it beats faster or slower would depend on how much residual input the heart gets from surviving nerves. However, assuming the heart has no input at all, it will actually beat faster because the parasympathetic vagal tone, which normally keeps the heart beating more slowly, is removed. So whether more blood is expressed after shooting will depend primarily on which vessels are severed and, perhaps to a lesser extent, on whether the horse was agitated at the time of shooting.

Think of it like the difference between "brain dead" and just plain "dead" in people. Either way, the horse is entirely unaware of what is happening from the instant that bullet enters the brain. That's the important thing.

Absolutely. No argument there.

 

[wkiwi]

In regards to 'afterwards' - I know in America that you can get the ashes made into an artificial diamond (human or animal ashes). So if anyone wants to have their family member (human or animal) worn close to them for ever more...

 

[Jaffa]

The best PTS I ever knew about was a childhood friend whose father was a MFH. When the time came for her pony to have to be despatched they just led it up to the stable block in earshot of where the hounds were kept, and had a good old blow on the horn......... and at that precise moment Did The Deed. What better and more fantastic way for a hunting pony to go - I've always remembered that.

I remember seeing an old episode of the James Herriot series and someone's hunting horse was PTS, they arranged for the hunt to at the yard, showed the MFH blowing on the horn with the hounds barking at the same time and even though it was a TV series that stayed with me and after reading your post I remembered it again.

Not much makes me goes all misty eyed but that certainly did

 

[Clodagh]

Surely there would be a lot of blood whether or not the heart was still beating as the head falls to the ground and has a hole in it, therefore if a largeish blood vessel has been damaged blood will flow, with gravity, to the lowest point?

 

[fburton]

It can make a huge difference if the blood is being forced out at pressure - compare the result of severing an artery versus a vein. Also, slowly flowing/oozing blood is liable to clot, staunching further flow.

 

[sula]

It can make a huge difference if the blood is being forced out at pressure - compare the result of severing an artery versus a vein. Also, slowly flowing/oozing blood is liable to clot, staunching further flow.

This. What I saw was clearly arterial - bright red - and pumping because the heart continued to beat for some while after death. It was the same with my horse who was pts by injection, the heart continued to pump, for the reason explained above. Similarly, the nerve pathways were still discharging impulses therefore there was a fair bit of residual activity mainly of the limbs. I mention this only so that others who may not have experienced pts before may be aware that this is quite normal and indeed to be expected.