Waterford Fullcheek - what next???

CobSunshine

CobSunshine

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I've been using this for around a year, the full cheeks have sorted my nappy boys spinning, the nature of the waterford means when he does decide to nap off and lean on the bit the links break up so he can't?

JHL_Pro_Full_Cheek_Waterford.jpg



I'm looking for a change of bit for a while to stop his random cantering/galloping off he's started doing after a dog jumped up and started clawing him 3 weeks ago. The same reaction he had to the dog he has started doing now to get out of going on certain ride routes he knows are quite long. He's a welsh section D and I guess quite clever now he's learnt his new "trick" and I can't stop him.

What would be a good bit to stop the above behaviour?

I was thinking a Pelham, but want some suggestions.

Thanks!
 
FfionWinnie said:
Schooling him? Desensitising him? If you get a stronger bit and he starts ignoring that what will you do then?
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He's schooled in the menarge every night, and hacked most days if light allows too. He's just trying it on, but getting dangerous with it, today he galloped down a sloping muddy hill, skidding in places, he has a huge powerful neck and now he's realised he can push through the bit it's impossible to stop him. I only want to reschool him with a different bit, then move him back to the waterford which he normally hacks beautifully in, very plod along
 
a couple of things.. have you thought about different nosebands? Also, bits with 2 sets of reins might be an option so you can ride on the snaffle and only pick up the curb rein if needed? Either a pelham or a gag would work in this way. A pelham is a better option if the horse puts its head up to tank off, whereas a gag is better if the head goes down. Another option - i used to ride my nappy horse out with a Degogue, using 2 reins which worked well. When needed, picking up the degogue rein prevented him spinning and taking off, it stayed knotted unless it was needed and the other set were on a snaffle.
 
Tricky one because the majority of horses ridden in a Waterford respect it and will not run through it! You need to work out where he responds to most. Does he respond to poll pressure or would evade it as such? What about a curb chain? Etc

Perhaps it's more so dealing with the situation as well. I appreciate its not easy to deal with a strong horse but maybe you need to look at what you do and be ready for it before he does it.
 
If he's happy with the mouthpiece then I would ask what does he do when he takes off - head down or head up? If head down then maybe try the waterford gag (I have mine in the 3 ring so I can change depending on what I am doing). If he throws his head up then a curb bit may be better for him. Welshies are (IME) strong in their neck and I know people say "schooling is the key". That's all good and well but, quite frankly, if your horse decides to take off, all the schooling in the world may not help and I would rather be safe so, if a more appropriate bit is the answer then so be it. People refer to bits as 'strong' or 'severe' bit IMO it's what the horse (and you) are happy with. A bot that appears severe for one horse may have no effect on another so I do not like referring to bits as severe or mild.

It's always good to try a few new things. I would trial a curb (ie pelham) or a gag and see what works best.
 
This is exactly why harsher bits used because good basics haven't been worked on just mask it for a while before the horse becomes dead to that too. Then you eventually run out of bits to 'move up' to. Horse is now so clearly dead in the mouth even a waterford isn't uncomfortable enough to stop him. I don't care if his neck alone is 500kg of muscle, the mouth is just as soft, until someone toughens it up by misusing a strong bit. Sort out the schooling, if he even had basic schooling he wouldn't be napping, spinning, or tanking off, you'd be able to work him through any moments. I'm not saying every horse should go in a snaffle 100% of the time, but neither should the mouth be seen as 'brakes' or the biggest factor in control. It takes two to pull on the reins.
 
FfionWinnie said:
He needs schooled/trained in the situation he is misbehaving ie on a hack. Is he being fed too much for work done, sounds likely.
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On a lami field as a very good doer, and fed half a stub scoop of Happy Hoof a day.


NeverSayNever said:
a couple of things.. have you thought about different nosebands? Also, bits with 2 sets of reins might be an option so you can ride on the snaffle and only pick up the curb rein if needed? Either a pelham or a gag would work in this way. A pelham is a better option if the horse puts its head up to tank off, whereas a gag is better if the head goes down. Another option - i used to ride my nappy horse out with a Degogue, using 2 reins which worked well. When needed, picking up the degogue rein prevented him spinning and taking off, it stayed knotted unless it was needed and the other set were on a snaffle.
Click to expand...

Thats what I like the sound of having the curb rein only as a last resort when if he plays up. His head does go quite high when he runs off, so it sounds like a Pelham may be the best to try. I'm all for getting a milder pelham, so instead of a waterford, what other options are they? Snaffle's apparently poke the horse in the roof of the mouth as he has a wide cob mouth, so French link pelham? Mullen pelham?


holeymoley said:
Tricky one because the majority of horses ridden in a Waterford respect it and will not run through it! You need to work out where he responds to most. Does he respond to poll pressure or would evade it as such? What about a curb chain? Etc

Perhaps it's more so dealing with the situation as well. I appreciate its not easy to deal with a strong horse but maybe you need to look at what you do and be ready for it before he does it.
Click to expand...

Not sure about the poll pressure question. I'm only looking to try another bit for a very short time to see how he responds. Once he gets a certain nap routine out of his system he'll be good as gold for months on end. ? Typical Welshie pushing the new found boundaries?


ladyt25 said:
If he's happy with the mouthpiece then I would ask what does he do when he takes off - head down or head up? If head down then maybe try the waterford gag (I have mine in the 3 ring so I can change depending on what I am doing). If he throws his head up then a curb bit may be better for him. Welshies are (IME) strong in their neck and I know people say "schooling is the key". That's all good and well but, quite frankly, if your horse decides to take off, all the schooling in the world may not help and I would rather be safe so, if a more appropriate bit is the answer then so be it. People refer to bits as 'strong' or 'severe' bit IMO it's what the horse (and you) are happy with. A bot that appears severe for one horse may have no effect on another so I do not like referring to bits as severe or mild.

It's always good to try a few new things. I would trial a curb (ie pelham) or a gag and see what works best.
Click to expand...

Thanks I find he goes great in the menarge when schooling, but I take him on the farm ride which is a wide open field with no barriers, and this is on solo hacks. A lot of others on the yard don't ride it as the horses get very excited in such an open space. I'm very gentle with my hands too and wary to stop this current behaviour before I end up coming off and hurting myself.


Littlelegs said:
This is exactly why harsher bits used because good basics haven't been worked on just mask it for a while before the horse becomes dead to that too. Then you eventually run out of bits to 'move up' to. Horse is now so clearly dead in the mouth even a waterford isn't uncomfortable enough to stop him. I don't care if his neck alone is 500kg of muscle, the mouth is just as soft, until someone toughens it up by misusing a strong bit. Sort out the schooling, if he even had basic schooling he wouldn't be napping, spinning, or tanking off, you'd be able to work him through any moments. I'm not saying every horse should go in a snaffle 100% of the time, but neither should the mouth be seen as 'brakes' or the biggest factor in control. It takes two to pull on the reins.
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I don't 100% agree with that. I've seen many perfectly schooled horses that are an absolute nightmare to even get off the yard, and i've been on many yards. Its not as plain cut as saying every horse with basic/advanced schooling will never ever try it on when out hacking.
 
I really dislike waterfords. They are barbaric bits that trap the thin bars of the mouth between the nobbles. If your horse has become 'dead' to this, then I expect his mouth is pretty shot to pot TBH.

You need to start over with his mouth. Ride him bitless for three months and allow his mouth to soften up a bit (if it is not too late and if the nerves have not been damaged). Then go back to basics with his bits.
 
Before my big mare (big as in tank rather than HH!) was retired she was just like your boy. She is a Fell, and has a neck like a stallion. Very well schooled, mouth like silk, schooled in a loose ring french link.
However on a hack would spin and bolt with no reason or warning, and could set her neck in any bit and go. I found that an army reversible bit (which is a driving bit) was perfect for her - http://www.saddler.co.uk/shop.html?cr=2452&pr=2165&pdesc=military_reversible_pelham_bit - May be worth a look?
 
Wagtail said:
I really dislike waterfords. They are barbaric bits that trap the thin bars of the mouth between the nobbles. If your horse has become 'dead' to this, then I expect his mouth is pretty shot to pot TBH.

You need to start over with his mouth. Ride him bitless for three months and allow his mouth to soften up a bit (if it is not too late and if the nerves have not been damaged). Then go back to basics with his bits.
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He's definitely not become dead to it, he hacks out perfect in company, usually perfect on solo hacks, but does try it on now and again. He has great brakes and steering usually :)
 
MudMudGloriousMud said:
Before my big mare (big as in tank rather than HH!) was retired she was just like your boy. She is a Fell, and has a neck like a stallion. Very well schooled, mouth like silk, schooled in a loose ring french link.
However on a hack would spin and bolt with no reason or warning, and could set her neck in any bit and go. I found that an army reversible bit (which is a driving bit) was perfect for her - http://www.saddler.co.uk/shop.html?cr=2452&pr=2165&pdesc=military_reversible_pelham_bit - May be worth a look?
Click to expand...

thanks will look at that
 
CobSunshine said:
He's definitely not become dead to it, he hacks out perfect in company, usually perfect on solo hacks, but does try it on now and again. He has great brakes and steering usually :)
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Therefore you don't need to change the bit you need to tackle the problem, get someone to walk by the side of you around your yard with a dog, or get someone to play in the school with a safe dog whilst your schooling. That's your starting point to getting his confidence back.
 
I didn't say well schooled horses don't try it on. Just that being well schooled gives you a means to stay in control rather than who gets to 'hold' the bit. And I think stronger bits have a place, but there is a big difference between needing something extra for something like hunting, xc etc, or as a tiny amount of back up even. But not as a necessity for basic control on a hack.
 
Give the wonderful people at Neue schule a call and ask for advice they really do know their stuff and their bits are better designed for the shape of a horses mouth. I have found them invaluable ; schooling is a very worthwhile activity but not everyone has a safe area to school their horse /Pony.
 
Have you thought about trying a Kineton noseband?

Do you have lessons on your cob? I had some trouble hacking my nappy mare a few years ago and a few lessons with a good instructor really helped.
 
CobSunshine said:
On a lami field as a very good doer, and fed half a stub scoop of Happy Hoof a day.




Thats what I like the sound of having the curb rein only as a last resort when if he plays up. His head does go quite high when he runs off, so it sounds like a Pelham may be the best to try. I'm all for getting a milder pelham, so instead of a waterford, what other options are they? Snaffle's apparently poke the horse in the roof of the mouth as he has a wide cob mouth, so French link pelham? Mullen pelham?

.
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id try a ported or mullen mouth pelham then. many horses with big tongues and low pallets (like cobs) like a ported mouthpeice.
 
Morning guys, borrowed a french link pelham last night, and he went a lot lighter/smoother than his full cheek waterford, the bottom curb rein stopped him well with gentle pressure. But it was dark so I was only in the menarge.

I've been doing loads more reading since, and going to also borrow a Kimblewick. I like the idea of the Uxeter, on the top slot little leverage, on the bottom slot more leverage, but compared to the pelham there is less shank so the leverage fulcrum/axis is far milder? Also the thicker metal bar should be a lot milder in his mouth than his waterford, also no snaffle action to poke him in the roof of his mouth. Sounds well worth a try I think, before sticking with the pelham, especially if he goes well in it and its milder...




Both of these are ported right for his tongue?

http://www.goytmill.com/cambridge-k...the-horse-bits-accessories-miscellaneous-bits

http://www.goytmill.com/uxeter-slot...the-horse-bits-accessories-miscellaneous-bits
 
CobSunshine said:
Morning guys, borrowed a french link pelham last night, and he went a lot lighter/smoother than his full cheek waterford, the bottom curb rein stopped him well with gentle pressure. But it was dark so I was only in the menarge.

I've been doing loads more reading since, and going to also borrow a Kimblewick. I like the idea of the Uxeter, on the top slot little leverage, on the bottom slot more leverage, but compared to the pelham there is less shank so the leverage fulcrum/axis is far milder? Also the thicker metal bar should be a lot milder in his mouth than his waterford, also no snaffle action to poke him in the roof of his mouth. Sounds well worth a try I think, before sticking with the pelham, especially if he goes well in it and its milder...




Both of these are ported right for his tongue?

http://www.goytmill.com/cambridge-k...the-horse-bits-accessories-miscellaneous-bits


http://www.goytmill.com/uxeter-slot...the-horse-bits-accessories-miscellaneous-bits
Click to expand...

i like kimblewicks, they are a bit ive used with success on strong ponies many a time.

However in your situation, where you are trying to teach your horse and stop this behaviour I would opt for the pelham with 2 reins. The kimblewick and pelhams come in the same mouthpeices. However with the kmblewick, what are you going to do if he starts pi££ing about? Get off and move the rein down to the lower slot? At least in the pelham you can ride off the snaffle rein and only use the curb rein when necessary.
 
I will no doubt be lynched for this but 2 things worked very well on my welsh C mare who had a similar trick.
The first when she span and bogged off was to spin her back the way we were originally going and then kick her on, when she wanted to stop I kept her going so instead of getting out of work she worked harder.
The second (and this is where the lynching comes in!) is I put a set of draw reins on her - knotted and on her neck until I needed them. When she tried to stick her head up to naff off she couldn't because of the draw reins so she soon gave up.

I've found with the Welshies (and the odd Fjord and Haffie!) that I've ridden over the years that if they want to sod off then all the bitting in the world won't stop them - you need to outsmart them ;)
 
FfionWinnie said:
Slotted kimblewick gives more options.
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Thanks :)


NeverSayNever said:
i like kimblewicks, they are a bit ive used with success on strong ponies many a time.

However in your situation, where you are trying to teach your horse and stop this behaviour I would opt for the pelham with 2 reins. The kimblewick and pelhams come in the same mouthpeices. However with the kmblewick, what are you going to do if he starts pi££ing about? Get off and move the rein down to the lower slot? At least in the pelham you can ride off the snaffle rein and only use the curb rein when necessary.
Click to expand...


I'm going to use the bottom rein position out hacking until i'm happy. Then eventually i'll switch to the top slot. Also the pelham has quite a leverage fulcrum with the longer shanks so I think the kimblewick should be a lot milder. I may even go for a leather curb once I see how he goes in it.

One thing for sure though it should be really gentle on his mouth with the port and the thick metal, compared to his waterford.



Broke_But_Happy said:
I will no doubt be lynched for this but 2 things worked very well on my welsh C mare who had a similar trick.
The first when she span and bogged off was to spin her back the way we were originally going and then kick her on, when she wanted to stop I kept her going so instead of getting out of work she worked harder.
The second (and this is where the lynching comes in!) is I put a set of draw reins on her - knotted and on her neck until I needed them. When she tried to stick her head up to naff off she couldn't because of the draw reins so she soon gave up.

I've found with the Welshies (and the odd Fjord and Haffie!) that I've ridden over the years that if they want to sod off then all the bitting in the world won't stop them - you need to outsmart them ;)
Click to expand...


Thanks he can have his moments and loves to try and outsmart from time to time!
 
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