We ALL want barefoot research except the BEVA?

[Delta99]

The study was designed not by me (my degree is in law, not veterinary medicine) but by said vet and Peter Clegg, whose full title is the Professor of Equine Orthopaedics at the University of Liverpool, so I imagine he knows what a study for palmar hoof pain should look like

The full synopsis (which is much longer than 300 words so wasn't used as an abstract) does give details of a control group, which are horses treated conventionally by Leahurst, the Liverpool Uni vet hospital. I don't have details of those horses from them.

I'm still very puzzled by this. I took my horse to Leahurst for the MRI, after having learned about Rockley and making the assumption that Leahurst support barefoot as a treatment option.
Yet their attitude was the complete opposite, under no circumstances was barefoot to be considered - instead, egg bars and box rest were recommended.
I got the impression that the vet's attitude was that I might as well shoot the horse there and then if I was planning to continue with barefoot.



Susie T, I agree with you with regards to soundness, certainly the last 2 videos on Rockley's blog labelled as sound are not sound by my definition either, I do hope that the majority of horses coming out of Rockley look a lot sounder.

I am also somewhat curious why so many horses end up going back to Rockley again, after they have been back with their owner and gone lame again?

Don't get me wrong, I think Rockley are doing a great job where the owners can't manage but it's not as straight forward as people are led to believe on this forum, and as SusieT said, there are different definitions of 'back in full work'. I have heard of plenty of horses sound for hacking and low level RC activity coming out of Rockley but has there ever been an Adv eventer , sj or dressage horse that has returned to that level of work after rehab?

 

[Orangehorse]

Leahurst is providing the Control group, so they are not advocating barefoot treatment.

I know an endurance horse that was going to be PTS after a year's conventional treatment and £5,000 vets bills that was treated by going barefoot. Horse returned to full work and is doing endurance once again, now in hoof boots. There are also plenty of horses that returned to hunting after being retired lame.

Trouble is, often these conditions come on over years, so the horse is maybe middle aged by the time the lameness shows up. Taking out the time to undertake all treatments and months and years go by, so maybe the owner has lost interest in competition by the time the horse is sound again. Many people are very happy to have a live horse able to get out and do something rather than a dead one.

 

[cptrayes]

I am also somewhat curious why so many horses end up going back to Rockley again, after they have been back with their owner and gone lame again?

"So many"?

One went back on hunter livery because the owner was going away for a prolonged spell.

One failed to get sufficient stimulus to the back of the foot and went back to be put back on track after a trim made him lame again.

One is, I think, possibly back there now because the owner, in the absence of a marvellous track system and with an only partly complete rehab in her hands, could not continue his progress.

Horses are typically taken home when they are only partly recovered and it is in the hands of the owners to continue the good work. It is little surprise that some people cannot manage that and a very small number (two?) have returned due to continuing foot issues. One, I think, is still there, the other returned home a long time ago and continues to progess.

 

[cptrayes]

has there ever been an Adv eventer , sj or dressage horse that has returned to that level of work after rehab?

As far as I am aware there has been no horse of this level which has yet gone into rehab, never mind come out of it.


By the way I do agree with you that on the last video of a chestnut horse back at home on a woodchip arena, I would not have been satisified with the way the horse was moving. But everything is relative, and if this horse had been facing a bullet, I'd have been ecstatic at that level of improvement.

 

[Bikerchickone]

I'm afraid I can't quote as I'm on my phone but Delta99 you mention videos of horses who aren't sound labelled as if they were on the blog, would you care to say which ones? I've just been back and looked at the most recent videos and have seen ones with comments that they're in the early stages of rehab and so still have issues, but none purporting to be sound when they aren't. Which ones do you mean please?

I have to say I also find it interesting that you're commenting in a negative way about Rockley when, despite the vets clearly advising you otherwise, you apparently had every intention of sending your horse there at one point.

It's a shame that someone can work long and hard to try to help others and still get pulled apart on here for their efforts.

I can only go with what I've seen for myself and that is the improvement of my own horse and others on my visits to Rockley.

 

[Pale Rider]

I'm still very puzzled by this. I took my horse to Leahurst for the MRI, after having learned about Rockley and making the assumption that Leahurst support barefoot as a treatment option.
Yet their attitude was the complete opposite, under no circumstances was barefoot to be considered - instead, egg bars and box rest were recommended.
I got the impression that the vet's attitude was that I might as well shoot the horse there and then if I was planning to continue with barefoot.



Susie T, I agree with you with regards to soundness, certainly the last 2 videos on Rockley's blog labelled as sound are not sound by my definition either, I do hope that the majority of horses coming out of Rockley look a lot sounder.

I am also somewhat curious why so many horses end up going back to Rockley again, after they have been back with their owner and gone lame again?

Don't get me wrong, I think Rockley are doing a great job where the owners can't manage but it's not as straight forward as people are led to believe on this forum, and as SusieT said, there are different definitions of 'back in full work'. I have heard of plenty of horses sound for hacking and low level RC activity coming out of Rockley but has there ever been an Adv eventer , sj or dressage horse that has returned to that level of work after rehab?

Not a very suprising attitude from Leahurst in my experience.

I don't think its a mystery why an odd horse may return to Rockley on occasion. Keeping horses sound barefoot is a bit like keeping half a dozen plates spinning, there are so many factors involved, which change and interact in different ways. A few plates are bound to fall.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm still very puzzled by this. I took my horse to Leahurst for the MRI, after having learned about Rockley and making the assumption that Leahurst support barefoot as a treatment option.
Yet their attitude was the complete opposite, under no circumstances was barefoot to be considered - instead, egg bars and box rest were recommended.
I got the impression that the vet's attitude was that I might as well shoot the horse there and then if I was planning to continue with barefoot.

Can we know what you chose to do? And if it worked/is working?

There are many vets at Leahurst and you are right, some of them are completely ignorant of barefoot rehabs. My friend was given an extremely poor prognosis for her horse last year and it was sound after about 6 weeks at Rockley. I was going to take it on myself but the insurers would not have paid out if it had not worked, so I couldn't

 

[Tiffany]

I know that I am picking on grammar here, and I apologise for doing it, but it matters.

Tiffany it is not the same as a horse with shoes, sorry. Most of the horses which have recovered with a barefoot rehab have already failed to recover in shoes. Admittedly anecdotally, the number which recover in shoes is far lower as a percentage than the number that recover without them. In addition, the recovery in shoes has some tendency to be temporary and the disease often progresses to make the horse lame again later, (or at least restrict work on hard ground/jumping etc) whereas the same does not, at the moment, appear to be true of a barefoot rehab for which we now have a few repeat xrays and MRIs that suggest it is a genuine cure.

If they have failed to recover with shoes that suggests BF is a last resort rather than something people believe in. I agree some shod horses with a foot condition can't work on hard ground etc although, the same applies to BF horses. We have 3 BF horses on our yard that require boots to hack out.

The workmanship of farriers/trimmers varies considerably and I believe a bad one can do more harm than good with long term consequences that can be detrimental to the horse.

 

[cptrayes]

If they have failed to recover with shoes that suggests BF is a last resort rather than something people believe in.

It don't think it matters why they do it as long as it helps the horse. I went barefoot fully expecting it to fail 7 years ago

I agree some shod horses with a foot condition can't work on hard ground etc although, the same applies to BF horses. We have 3 BF horses on our yard that require boots to hack out.

It is my experience that most horses requiring boots to hack out after a suitable transition period would require their diet to be adjusted and/or more work so as not to need the boots. On the other hand, most conventional foot lameness rehabs who can't manage some ground conditions can't manage it because they are still suffering from the condition they were treated for. I don't actually think that the two are comparable.

There is also nothing to stop a barefoot rehab, once completely resolved, from being shod again. In many cases, preferably by a better farrier than the one it was being shod by before it went lame

 

[Delta99]

As far as I am aware there has been no horse of this level which has yet gone into rehab, never mind come out of it.


By the way I do agree with you that on the last video of a chestnut horse back at home on a woodchip arena, I would not have been satisified with the way the horse was moving. But everything is relative, and if this horse had been facing a bullet, I'd have been ecstatic at that level of improvement.

agree totally that any improvement is good but the two horses I'm referring to are not sound. One is on a rubber surface and the other one is chestnut, the blog mentioned 'big paces' (?)

Also, these days a lot of horses compete at advanced levels by the time they're 6 - 8 yrs, so not old by any means. Yes, I agree that the fact that they are pushed so quickly could be why they are lame but until we see horses returning to that level of work (as some do with shoes), the study cannot be complete.

Can we know what you chose to do? And if it worked/is working?

The horse is still barefoot and almost sound now (only slightly lame on a circle to the right and I'm sure 9 out 10 people wouldn't notice this).

I have to say I also find it interesting that you're commenting in a negative way about Rockley when, despite the vets clearly advising you otherwise, you apparently had every intention of sending your horse there at one point.

Leahurst advised against barefoot, Rockley was never mentioned.
I am not negative about Rockley but I would not send my horse there either.
I have learned a lot by looking at what Rockley do and have copied some things, eg pea gravel but don't agree with other things, eg putting a rider on a lame horse.

As for horses going back to Rockley, there were a few mentioned on the Phoenixhorse forum recently, plus my trimmer (UKNHCP) has mentioned a few - enough to make me question the validity of the rehab but agree, that statement I made is based on hearsay.

 

[tallyho!]

Isn't the point of the study to rehab horses diagnosed with palmar hoof pain (however it is diagnosed as)? It is without doubt a success. In any study there are failures, relapses, got better but not quite... that is statistics. That is the nature of trials.

Why are we focusing on that?

Why are we now talking about random cases and advanced horses etc? If an adv. horse goes persistently lame, I am afraid it is the bullet.

Have we all forgotten that horses were never meant to be ridden. To have shoes. To live in boxes and squares all their lives. Most cope very well indeed thankfully. Some have problems. The ones who have problems rely on us to either end their suffering or try and help.

Egg-bar, heartbar, wedges, boots, glue-ons, barefoot are all a host of tools we can CHOOSE from surely.... all in the name of getting a better HOOF for the horse to get around on at our beck and call. We choose saddles, bits, bridles... why not footwear?

We rely too much on hard facts, when the answers are right there in front of our noses. We only have to open our eyes to see it. Is this the price of progress?

 

[amandap]

I'm afraid I can't quote as I'm on my phone but Delta99 you mention videos of horses who aren't sound labelled as if they were on the blog, would you care to say which ones? I've just been back and looked at the most recent videos and have seen ones with comments that they're in the early stages of rehab and so still have issues, but none purporting to be sound when they aren't. Which ones do you mean please?

I have to ditto this. Time at Rockley in my understanding is the beginning of the rehab period...

All I can say is those of you who wish to follow the advice of expert hospitals and vets, do so. Don't forget to question these experts as well on their thinking.
Many horses go to Rockley as the last chance with guns to their heads when shoeing and vet experts have nothing left to offer. Don't forget this point. Vets could offer rehab to build strong hoof structures by comfortable, controlled exercize of the hooves but how many do?

Some owners are choosing to send their horses there much earlier and I have to say that imo a non invasive rehab, that actually makes sense to me, would be my choice.

 

[Natch]

Silly question alert: how come AANHCP/UKNHCP/UKAEP/AAEP not offered a helping hand? Really sorry if I have missed something and they have and therefore I am forever humbled.

I *think* AANHCP have written and published quite a papers.

Isn't Rockley a part of UKNHCP? I get confused over who is who

 

[Oberon]

Isn't Rockley a part of UKNHCP? I get confused over who is who

Nic Barker was one of the founders of the UKNHCP but has since resigned from the organisation (I believe).

 

[dressagelove]

Nic Barker was one of the founders of the UKNHCP but has since resigned from the organisation (I believe).

How interesting, I wonder why?

 

[Oberon]

Probably has too much on with Rockley to devote enough time to the organisation and take on students etc.

 

[tallyho!]

I get confused over who is who

I really wish Nic the very very best and infact, if there were a fund set up, happily donate towards a fab study. I believe that nature has a place in hoofcare forever.

What you say Naturally is part of the problem with "barefoot" in the UK. There does not seem to be any unity. At least in farriery, there is. Barefoot will never gain credibility as long as the two independent bodies remain divided over what is what. They MUST come together. Hoofcare is hoofcare is hoofcare. Call it what you want but the end goal is exactly the same for all three factions.

 

[Bikerchickone]

I'm sorry Delta99 but you quite specifically messaged me about Rockley back in the early days of my boy being lame to talk about how you had booked your horse in but had doubts because Nic hadn't rehabed any competition horse, and you then changed your mind on the day because the winds were too strong for travel by trailer.

I wouldn't ordinarily quote someone on a pm, but I can't help feeling that your posts against Rockley are quite harsh, and I'm curious about why, especially since you're using a similar method to rehab your own horse currently.

Personally, at this point in time I feel very strongly that Nic has a positive effect on the life of every horse who passes through her hands, and I don't understand why you seem almost pleased that you can point out blog horses aren't completely sound. These are horses still in rehab and still well within the year it takes them to grow a whole new hoof capsule, and if by the chestnut you mean Bryan, he's only recently gone home and still has a way to go, as do they all upon leaving Rockley. Perhaps the comments about bigger strides were referring to his strides prior to rehab as a comparison.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Sorry also have to say, where did you get the idea that Rockley puts riders on lame horses? This is not the case. Rehab horses are not asked to work at all until they are comfortable on conforming surfaces, and even then when they are comfortable they're led from another horse until they are sound for a rider to get on.

I have heard Nic say many times that there is no advantage in working an uncomfortable horse, and on my many visits to Rockley I've never seen a lame horse ridden.

 

[Hollycatt]

The UK is not the be and end all. There are plenty of conferences throught Europe - many in English and also the US. Try those instead!

 

[SO1]

I work for an organisation that runs large medical conferences. They want to attract people to come and often what attracts people are people who are famous within the industry for example Lord Winston is always very popular. The conferences are run as profit making or at very least break even as Nic is not a big name in vet science it is going to be harder to get a look in.

Additionally the hoof is not an area many vets specialise in a lot of them leave this to farriers. If you look at previous BEVA conferences and most medical conferences they split topics into groups such as the stifle, respiratory etc and have several presentations on the same subject lead by a chair. If Nic's paper is the only one they have on the hoof then they won't be able to have a group of presentations on the same topic and it won't be practical to run it even if the reasearch is interesting and scientific. Also if she was going to be making the presentation and is not a vet or does not come from a scientific background and is not known in the industry then it is also more risky as she may not be able to answer some of the more detailed scientific questions.

 

[amandap]

I thought Brian was a competition horse?

Hopefully if the message gets across about the need to allow hooves to mature, get and keep hooves strong from birth then many of these problems horses have will just disappear with a puff of smoke.

Bickerchickone, whatever "type of person" you are I think you seem fab.

 

[TwoStroke]

Well, that doesn't sound like the Nic Barker I've heard about at all. Indeed she was all too happy to try and help me with advice on my barefoot horse, with no financial incentive at all.

 

[amandap]

Don't know what Brian was doing before his problems but... http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/bryan-totally-under-rated-yesterday-so.html

 

[Pale Rider]

Well, that doesn't sound like the Nic Barker I've heard about at all. Indeed she was all too happy to try and help me with advice on my barefoot horse, with no financial incentive at all.

^^Agreed^^
Another vote for Bickerchickone, as well,lol.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Lol, thanks guys, can only say it as I find it, and sorry Delta99 I'm definitely not your 'sweetie'. I believe the problem with your story lies in the inconsistencies, however be that as it may I'm glad your horse is doing well. We each have the right to do as we see fit with our horses. I simply find it interesting that you feel so negatively about one who works so hard for them.

I can only comment as I find. Nic has been exceptionally kind, patient, understanding and informative about every stage of rehab, and not having anywhere near your own professional experience Delta99, I'm sure I've asked many stupid questions along the way. Yet every question has been answered and I've never felt silly for asking. I guess that's due to Nic's infinite patience and passion for what she does.

I believe agreeing to disagree here is the best scenario, since I cannot make your description of Nic and her methods tally with the person and place I have come to know.

Well done for your success at home and I sincerely hope your horse continues to do well, as I'm sure you do mine.

 

[shortstuff99]

Would it seem weird if I said that remedial shoeing and NOT BF worked for my mare? Her rotation reversed she is now back in normal shoes and full work and is sound as a pound! But I am not against BF per se, I think that more research is needed and we can't be set in a 'it must be one way or the other'. Surely we need to diagnose horses on a case by case basis and do whatever works best for that horse? Be it BF, shoes or a mx of both? Being biased in either direction is a sure fire way to stagnate and not improve hoof understanding.

 

[Bikerchickone]

I don't think that's weird at all. I think everyone should do what's right for their horses at the time. Barefoot is working for my cob and currently shoeing is working for my youngster.

Whichever way keeps a horse sound and happy on its hooves is the right way to go. Really glad your mare is doing well Shortstuff, great news. x

 

[shortstuff99]

I agree! And thank you

 

[marc]

Sweetie, I booked my horse in at Rockley after reading all the glowing reports of all these horses coming sound there.
I did not take him on the day he was supposed to go as I would have had to make a 4 hour journey in a trailer, in 50 mile an hour winds and no one in their right mind who cares about their horse (or in fact other road users!) would do this.

Nic Barker's only concern was the cost the one day delay would have for her.
No concern about the welfare of the animal. (I'm sure a 24 hr delay would have been very costly at £ 125 a week for living out plus whatever grant she gets for the vets referrals!)
I'm afraid that this is not the type of person I want to look after my horse.

So, maybe my posts about Rockley do seem harsh to you, but I feel very strongly an accurate picture needs to be painted of this place and believe you me, I have tried to be polite, as I was in my pm to you, obviously the message of 'be careful!' did not get through.

Rockley is not the cure for all horses. Most horses that come away from Rockley are still lame, it doesn't matter whether they are 7/10 lame or 1/10, they are lame nonetheless. I do not ride a lame horse.

Nic was also very cagey about what she actually does, and very evasive about whether any of her rehabs had returned to competition work.
Yes, I'm sure if my horse had gone to Rockley and I saw him now I would say, wow, what an improvement.
But you know what, the horse has shown the same improvement just sitting in the field and I'm nearly £3000 better off.

And please, watch those videos! Those horses are LAME! (of course riding lame horses is not exclusive to Rockley, a lot of people don't realise that their horse is lame.)

Based on what I have seen and heard in the last few months I can only say thank God for that windy day!

And before you ask, I have spent many years working and training for my BHSI in big equestrian centres so trust me, I have acquired a little bit of knowledge about horses.

I do really think it's a great shame that it always comes to this, I always try to be objective and as I said before, for a certain type of owner Rockley is a fantastic place.
Let's just say, it is not the place for a competition horse (there, see, being polite again.)
If you want harsh, please read the thread on Parelli, someone put a post in there that could be applied to Rockley....

I agree with this post. Perhaps the research got rejected because it wasn't written well enough or maybe because it is just pure evangalism. Anyways I'm sure they make plenty of money there. I hope they dont rely on insurance policies to pay them their wages as they will all start to follow NFUs lead.