We ALL want barefoot research except the BEVA?

OK I wasn't going to comment as these posts are covering such wide ground from Rockley bashing to barefoot worship but as Bryan's owner I would like to make the following points specifically about Bryan:

1. Bryan was competing at 1.50m level (show jumping) prior to his injury. So I think that covers the competition horse aspect!
2. Bryan was totally written off following MRI due to the complexity of his foot injuries combined with his age - advised to "cut out the middle man (ie the vet) and go direct to the local knackerman".
3. I have had two other horses within the last two years diagnosed similarly and having followed all my vet's advice to the letter they were both eventually put down. I wanted to see if there was any alternative even if it only meant that Bryan could return to light hacking and be affordable to keep (without expensive remedial shoeing and drugs) for someone who just wanted to have him on loan. This was about QUALITY of life for the horse. The Rockley rehab process in my opinion is far better for the horse than six months box rest and a year in the field, and the veterinary route had not proved successful for me in the past.
4. I agree Bryan is not level yet but he is sound (horses do not have to be symmetrical to be sound) and in no discomfort. His stride length is improving all the time and although I never expected him to return to competition it certainly looks like a possibility now!

I sent Nic the videos to show how he was progressing ie still changing. He is only 14 weeks into working without shoes and his feet have changed totally and are still changing. I have many other horses which are all shod.

Right off to hug some trees and cuddle some fluffy bunnies......
 
thanks for posting lottie, good to know a bit more about him :).

As for the money.. I bought some pea gravel recently and having seen how much of it Nic has that cost a fortune! ;) :D
 
Delta99 said:
Sweetie, I booked my horse in at Rockley after reading all the glowing reports of all these horses coming sound there.
I did not take him on the day he was supposed to go as I would have had to make a 4 hour journey in a trailer, in 50 mile an hour winds and no one in their right mind who cares about their horse (or in fact other road users!) would do this.

Nic Barker's only concern was the cost the one day delay would have for her.
No concern about the welfare of the animal. (I'm sure a 24 hr delay would have been very costly at £ 125 a week for living out plus whatever grant she gets for the vets referrals!)
I'm afraid that this is not the type of person I want to look after my horse.
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as far as i am aware, Nic get absolutely NO money from vet referrals or from insurance companies (owners may find some of their claim is covered by the insurance but its purely up to the owner to pay Nic's fees)

and i do know that Nic took great deliberation about your situation; she hates saying to people they can't come. it was NOT based purely on money as you seem to state. what your posted doesn't make clear is that the horse on the waiting list after you was getting lamer and lamer by the day whilst being on boxrest and having to wear some of the most ridiculously high wedges I have ever seen. In comparison, from what i understand of your situation, your horse was already barefoot and you had started the rehab yourself and had made Nic no guarantee that it would only be a 24hr delay (obviously, please feel free to correct me on this, i don't know your situation, only the conversations i had with Nic). the decision was therefore made based on her judgement of the horse most in need of the rehab - purely welfare grounds. Given my understanding of the situation, i would also have make exactly the same decision.

I'd also just like to remind people of the 'rockley scholarship' where Nic has is rehabing someone's horse for free except for a small contribution to cover feed. Is that the action of someone who is only concerned about financial decisions or someone who really wants to help as many horses as possible?

i'm really glad your boy is improving with you. i've only tried to present here what i know of the other side of the decision about your horse and apologies if anything i have said about your personal situation is not accurate; i just want people to have a few more facts to make their own minds up.
 
I just wanted to add a couple of things.

Firstly as someone whose horse was at Rockley, my experience of Nic Barker in no way matches what has been said and was certainly not a money grabbing expensive approach.


Various people made money trying to fix my horse, but Rockley was not at the top of this league table.

It cost me the same as 5 day livery in Herts so didn't cost me anything compared to the thousands NFU paid out in non proven treatments and remedial farriery in the 18 months before he went.

Having said that, I think there is some validity in the competition horse point in that it is unlikely to happen. If mine had been owned by a professional rider, I don't believe that as much trouble would have been taken. I think he would have been pts or if lucky given to someone to hack lightly. I am not saying that professional riders don't care about their horses, they do and will do the best for them, but they take a much more practical approach and a horse with long term and recurrent issues is not going to be kept. Not saying it couldn't work, just that it's more likely that leisure riders go down this route. Like Lottie1, my hope was he would stay sound enough at least for light hacking as he wasn't even staying field sound so I'm thrilled that we've gone further.


In terms of the research, I don't know if it matches required criteria as it's not my area. However I don't have such rose tinted views of this fantastic research that is happening outside of this. The clinic where Frankie had his MRI, followed up outcomes as part of a study. This took the highly scientific approach of a questionnaire for the owner to fill in, I was asked as a lay person to assess my horse current grade of lameness etc

As for whether he was sound when he returned, the day after he came back we took him up to RVC where he was assessed by the same vet in the same place an trotted sound on a 10m circle on concrete for the first time in 2 years.
 
Depends if people have the knowledge, confidence, support, facilities, time etc to do it at home...

Wonder why vets don't recommend? They do in my neck of the woods... can't say that for everyone.
 
Delta99 said:
Ok, as a final thing to say to this, Nic did not say I could not take my boy there. I was very very hesitant about sending him there to begin with and when her only concern was financial, that was the end of it for me.

At no point did Nic mention that there was another horse that was getting lamer every day (and why on earth would the owner let that happen??! The shoes could have been taken off at home and the rehab started before the horse went to Rockley.)

Talking about money, given £ 125 per week at Rockley and the number of horses I saw there minus the cost of the horses living out, by my calculation Nic clears at least £70,000 per annum after tax so even if you take into account maintenance, I would say that's a pretty good income for a few hours work every day.

Once again I'm not saying that she isn't doing a lot of good but I will continue to try to give people who are thinking about sending their horse there a more objective view.
At the end of the day one does have to wonder why vets are not recommending barefoot as a treatment option.
Incidently Nic spoke to my vet and informed me that he was very positive - yet he did not give me a referral to Rockley.

Lottie1, I'm not actually sure Brian is one of the horses I was referring to but if he is I'm sorry you had to see this, I'm sure reading on a public forum that your horse is lame is very upsetting. (unlevel = lame, I'm afraid).
My concern with this was that Rockley and people on this forum lead others to believe that 12 weeks at Rockley and the horse will be sound and back in full work when this is clearly not the case.
At least that has now been revised to the time at Rockley is only the beginning of the rehab - at which point one has to wonder why anyone would spend approximately £3000 when the beginning of the rehab can be done at home for around £300?
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So you are suggesting the Nic doesn't charge at all and do it all for free?

Do any other rehab yards offer their services for free?

I personally don't suggest to anyone that their horse will be sound after 12 weeks at Rockley....I point them in Nic's direction and let them contact her and then make their own decision.

Perhaps I have more faith in the intelligence of the posters on this forum, it seems.

As all the posters who have replied on this forum that have actually sent their horses to Rockley, have had positive views....I would suggest you appear to have a axe to grind with your statements on here and your negative pms to people considering Rockley.

That does not strike me as a balanced view in my book.

If we could have a poster who had indeed sent their horse to Rockley and had negative things to say - I would be more inclined to listen to them.

As it is, it saddens me that you have put such energy into trashing someone's reputation on this thread.

I hope you and your horse continue to do well.
 
I have never, in my years on this forum and when I was very bf sceptical and had many a 'discussion ;)' read that 12 weeks at rockley produces a fully rehabbed/sound/in full work horse . . :confused:. It does provide a unique environment, it may give some horses and excellent head start, and is most probably easier on a lot of owner inclined to worry (like most of us do about our beasts!) On which note I am off to worry about my 5.5 weeks in barefooter and take him for his daily constitutional :).
 
Have to say I'd like to know how you've come to the figures you've given in your post Delta99? As far as I can tell 12 weeks of rehab at £125 is nowhere near £3000? More like half of it! I also find it interesting that you think Nic makes so much money! Nic has 7 rehab horses at a time, nowhere near the crowd of 20 you quoted me by pm, and owns only 4 of her own!

I have a very good friend who runs her own yard and struggles to make money charging more than Nic does for livery. I honestly fail to see how you can imagine Nic to be rolling in money for what she does.

I truly believe you have something of a grudge for some reason, and since your comments are so far from the reality of Rockley I'm afraid I don't think your views here are credible, especially when, despite being firmly negative about Nic and Rockley, you're using exactly the same methods to treat your horse!

Might I also suggest you go back and read some of your own threads about your horse where you post about how the lameness has improved but isn't gone and you've been riding for about a month. Then you can tell us again how you don't like riding lame horses!

Again, we're all glad your horse is doing well. :)
 
If rockely is happyf ro lots of positive posts, they have to expect some negative. Interesting anyway! I've always said a commercial operation can have issues when it comes to saying they can fix anything-which is often the attitude that rockely comes across as having-it's not in their interest to say no, they may not be doing it on purpose but something has to pay the bills. Nothing wrong with it, but should be pointed out to anyone thinking it's all about the horse-bills have to be met.
 
And yes, unlevel is lame.. that is the part of the barefoot world that makes mos tof us uncomfortable-the happiness to work a lame horse. Lame on a circle generally means lame!
 
I agree with you that it's dangerous to make out that one method can fix everything, but I'm not sure that idea has come from Rockley.

When I first contacted Nic via email to talk about the possibility of my horse going there she was quite careful to say that she couldn't guarantee that he would come sound again.

In fact Nic was very careful to advise me that all rehab horses are taken for one month initially to see if any improvement can be made, so that a decision can be made as to whether or not completing the full 12 weeks of rehab would be beneficial.

I think the key point here is that everyone involved wants to see their horses improve, I don't think it matters which way that improvement is achieved. Barefoot has its place as do shoes. I don't care which works for my horses as long as something does. I currently have one shod and one barefoot so personally I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

If my horses are happy so am I. :)
 
SusieT said:
. that is the part of the barefoot world that makes mos tof us uncomfortable-the happiness to work a lame horse.
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Actually it was the vets who were telling me to "bute him up and work him through it" and that was a major factor for me in sending him to Rockley and trying barefoot as I wasn't prepared to do that.
 
SusieT said:
And yes, unlevel is lame.. that is the part of the barefoot world that makes mos tof us uncomfortable-the happiness to work a lame horse. Lame on a circle generally means lame!
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Yes but lame from what?
 
I missed that post SusieT. Horses can be unlevel for many different reasons, some completely unrelated to their hooves.

Again I repeat, I've not seen Nic ride a lame horse. I have however seen a friend struggle with vet advice to ride her lame mare because the vet believed that doing so would strengthen the problem area. Much as I might disagree it did work for her girl.
 
Oberon said:
So you are suggesting the Nic doesn't charge at all and do it all for free?

Do any other rehab yards offer their services for free?

I personally don't suggest to anyone that their horse will be sound after 12 weeks at Rockley....I point them in Nic's direction and let them contact her and then make their own decision.

Perhaps I have more faith in the intelligence of the posters on this forum, it seems.

As all the posters who have replied on this forum that have actually sent their horses to Rockley, have had positive views....I would suggest you appear to have a axe to grind with your statements on here and your negative pms to people considering Rockley.

That does not strike me as a balanced view in my book.

If we could have a poster who had indeed sent their horse to Rockley and had negative things to say - I would be more inclined to listen to them.

As it is, it saddens me that you have put such energy into trashing someone's reputation on this thread.

I hope you and your horse continue to do well.
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Brilliant post!
 
People are allowed to say poisitve things-people are allowed to say negative things. That's how being a commercial business happens. An unlevel horse unless there has been a mechanical change (arthodesis for example) is avoiding putting weight somewhere that is sore. Work sound horses all you want, but there are several videos of horses with 'powerful movement' and 'bouncy trots' etc. at home supposedly doing really well that are mincing along, being pushed to perform which isn't in the horses best interest.
 
Delta99 said:
Ok, as a final thing to say to this, Nic did not say I could not take my boy there. I was very very hesitant about sending him there to begin with and when her only concern was financial, that was the end of it for me.

At no point did Nic mention that there was another horse that was getting lamer every day (and why on earth would the owner let that happen??! The shoes could have been taken off at home and the rehab started before the horse went to Rockley.)

Talking about money, given £ 125 per week at Rockley and the number of horses I saw there minus the cost of the horses living out, by my calculation Nic clears at least £70,000 per annum after tax so even if you take into account maintenance, I would say that's a pretty good income for a few hours work every day.

Once again I'm not saying that she isn't doing a lot of good but I will continue to try to give people who are thinking about sending their horse there a more objective view.
At the end of the day one does have to wonder why vets are not recommending barefoot as a treatment option.
Incidently Nic spoke to my vet and informed me that he was very positive - yet he did not give me a referral to Rockley.

Lottie1, I'm not actually sure Brian is one of the horses I was referring to but if he is I'm sorry you had to see this, I'm sure reading on a public forum that your horse is lame is very upsetting. (unlevel = lame, I'm afraid).
My concern with this was that Rockley and people on this forum lead others to believe that 12 weeks at Rockley and the horse will be sound and back in full work when this is clearly not the case.
At least that has now been revised to the time at Rockley is only the beginning of the rehab - at which point one has to wonder why anyone would spend approximately £3000 when the beginning of the rehab can be done at home for around £300?
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i really think you need to check your math - £125 x 12 weeks = £1500, not £3000. I've got no idea where or why you are bringing up this £70000 figure - what on earth does that have to do with anything!? Nic takes a maximum of 7 rehab horses at a time, i don't know how many you seem to think she has but its certainly not herds of 20+ which seems to be what you are implying. and they don't all live out all the time, so there are stabling costs to consider and the cost of the upkeep of the tracks - the pea gravel is not cheap and given the lovely exmoor weather, does need topping up quite regularly. Personally, I think £125 for full livery including exercise is very cheap! i'm on assisted DIY at home and was paying nearly £200 a month for shoes - sending my horse to rockley actually didn't work out any more expensive than having him on livery.

you mention that your vet didn't give you a referral - well Nic only takes horses on referral, so the fact that you were going means you did get a referral. maybe not written, but your vet would have had to have given Nic his permission somehow.

and i think many vets don't recommend it because they are unaware of the benefits; which is exactly what Nic was trying to address by submitting to BEVA... i.e the original topic of this post, which has now decended into how much money Nic makes a year! oh shock horror, must be a barefoot thread :rolleyes:
 
regardless of the facts (who cares about facts lol, why let them stand in the way of a good story!? *rolls eyes*)

god forbid that an equestrian professional make a bloody living out of their job (and for £125 they'll not be buying a ferrari quite yet), much better that they subsidise the horse owners expensive, luxury hobby.
 
SusieT said:
dreams-what is your connection with nic? you seem to know a lot about the business..
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i'm a rehab owner (Nico's my boy if you have read her blogs) with a background in equine research (hence why i encouraged Nic to try to publish her results). The things I know are only from long conversations with Nic about the rehab process, and from things I have observed whilst i have been down there, because, contrary to Delta99's opinion, Nic is very open and realistic about exactly what she does with these horses and the outcomes she expects at the end
 
I don't know can't dreams but I've given exactly the same facts earlier in this post and I know the things I know because my horse is a Rockley rehab currently and I've spent a great deal of time following (translate to mean pestering) Nic and seeing what she does. I'm sure anyone who's had a horse at Rockley would be able to say the same.

I can promise you she's not driving a Ferrari ;);)
 
I started to write a really long reply addressing all the points I wanted to make having read this post, however, most of it has already been said so instead I will say with this:

I have been out this afternoon in the sunshine on a lovely hack on my horse, and these last few weeks I have been schooling my horse with a view to returning to competition (local level dressage – alright it might not be badminton but whose to judge, its what we did before he went lame). This is on a horse who, if it wasn’t for Nic probably wouldn’t be here as everything else had failed.

The fact that his rehab cost me the same as his livery at home is neither here nor there, but as I sat on my horse this afternoon the feeling was priceless, and its down to Nic for helping me and my horse to still have afternoons like that.

It is perhaps slightly irrelevant but it underpins why I think people like Nic should be supported for the work that they do and while scepticism is to be expected, and indeed its good to question things because that is how we learn. I am however appalled and angered at some of the personal and downright rude comments and assertions that have been made about her.
 
Wish I could quote you nic83, brilliant post. Nic deserves to be treated with the respect a hardworking professional*should be given, not undermined by people who clearly don't know anything about her or what she does.
 
He would, bless him, he's up for anything! Doing really well too, and coming home in a couple of weeks, I can't wait! The most amazing difference for me has been the speed he wants to go downhill at now! He used to crawl down any slope but now he's striding out better than ever.

How's Nico doing? :) x
 
bikerchickone said:
He would, bless him, he's up for anything! Doing really well too, and coming home in a couple of weeks, I can't wait! The most amazing difference for me has been the speed he wants to go downhill at now! He used to crawl down any slope but now he's striding out better than ever.

How's Nico doing? :) x
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you must be looking forward to him coming home now! sounds like he is really on the mend.

Nic's doing fab. He's really muscled up now and is so much more powerful from behind than he used to be. its interesting that although going barefoot has sorted his front limb lameness out, certainly at the moment, its had the biggest impact on his movement behind. i think the front end still has a little way to go, but he's improving all the time. need to get him jumping soon if we are gonna go to the reunion! :)
 
Fantastic news, really pleased for you, he's such a lovely lad. I'm hoping we'll be able to get to the reunion too, but definitely not going to be jumping since it terrifies me lol! So glad he's doing well. :) x
 
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