'We can't leave him unshod' WWYD

Emilieu

Emilieu

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Hope this makes sense, i'm in a bit of a frazzle.
Deano went in for futher investigations into his lameness today. If it is navicular as they suspect then I had decided I would start by trying him barefoot - I have enlisted the help of a specialist who came highly recommended on the phoneix forum and is coming to see him next week. He advised me to say to the vet to leave his shoes off if they took them off to x-ray which I duly did today. The vet's reply was 'if the pain is coming from there we cannot leave him unshod.' Pretty definate. Feel a bit lost, like i would be insisting he left my darling boy in pain just on a whim of mine. What would you do? All opinions welcome, thank you xx
 
Unshod or specialised shoeing.

I have to say I'd be getting 2nd/3rd/4th farrier opinions over vets personally. OH's (farrier) dad would sometimes and wouldn't other, very dependant on the horse.

Hang on, who is putting the shoes back on?! If clinic farrier, then I'd have a chat with him not vet. If your farrier, let him talk to vet.
 
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You need to have a proper chat with your vet about it. My mare is currently unshod due to navicular diagnosis and I had the full support of my vet after we sat down and discussed the options. Her lameness was almost gone after 8 weeks without shoes and 2 trims by an excellent trimmer, my vet kept an eye on what we were doing but didn't interfere.

Maybe point your vet in the direction of Rockley Farm?
 
PandorasJar said:
Unshod or specialised shoeing.

I have to say I'd be getting 2nd/3rd/4th farrier opinions over vets personally. OH's dad would sometimes and wouldn't other, very dependant on the horse.

Hang on, who is putting the shoes back on?! If clinic farrier, then I'd have a chat with him not vet. If your farrier, let him talk to vet.
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He had phoned because he was worried about being able to get hold of a farrier to shoe him again at this time of year if they took them off. I said 'that's ok i want them off anyway.' Lead. Balloon.

I've just lost all confidence. Feel as if it is so presumptious of me to challenge him when he is the expert. 'It just feels right' isn't much of a scientific argument really.
 
Emilieu said:
He had phoned because he was worried about being able to get hold of a farrier to shoe him again at this time of year if they took them off. I said 'that's ok i want them off anyway.' Lead. Balloon.

I've just lost all confidence. Feel as if it is so presumptious of me to challenge him when he is the expert. 'It just feels right' isn't much of a scientific argument really.
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Book your farrier to go down and remove shoes. Put in writing with vets that you do not want reshod and your farrier is first port of call if necessary.
 
PandorasJar said:
Book your farrier to go down and remove shoes. Put in writing with vets that you do not want reshod and your farrier is first port of call if necessary.
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The problem being that I don't reckon my farrier is going to be keen to remove shoes either which is why i have the trimmer booked in to come next week. There is no chance farrier will be able to go down to remove shoes today. I trust the farrier they have but just don't want to go down the remedial shoeing route as first port of call.
If it needs to be shoes I don't really mind which farrier puts them on but i wanted to try him without first.
 
Could you get the opinion of a farrier that's more open minded about barefoot & will give an unbiased opinion as to what is best for the horse? I'm not saying your trimmer is wrong, or that you should have to do so, but if the vets aren't amenable to barefoot when recommended by a trimmer, the last thing you need is to be stuck in the middle. Whereas if you can find a farrier that does remedial work that doesn't always involve nailed on metal shoes, the vets might be keener to work with you on leaving shoes off.
 
Emilieu said:
The problem being that I don't reckon my farrier is going to be keen to remove shoes either which is why i have the trimmer booked in to come next week. There is no chance farrier will be able to go down to remove shoes today. I trust the farrier they have but just don't want to go down the remedial shoeing route as first port of call.
If it needs to be shoes I don't really mind which farrier puts them on but i wanted to try him without first.
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Then get lots of opinions.

I've several farriers locally who prefer shoes off but will do for the horse, so if there is a real reason not to go unshod they will say. Get a mix of views and the reasoning backing them up. And be choosy if shoes have to go back on. Makes a huge difference. No foot - no horse.

Ultimately he is your horse, put your foot down. x
 
How are shoes going to help alleviate the pain from navicular :confused:. He's already lame in shoes, so obviously they're not working? Seems like a very odd thing for the vet to say. Does this vet understand how a horse's hoof works?
 
I say, if you are paying the money, you get to decide. Look at it from the other way... The vet IS a specialist but you are paying for his services and rightfully should not be making you feel this way.

There are lots of vets in this country and he should be reassuring you not condemning your wishes. This should be talked through between customer and service provider, that which, he is.

Please state your wishes, if he speaks to you like a child, then thank him for his opinion but you would like to get a second opinion. At the end of the day, horse care is down to you, they can only advise. If they cannot find the time to research into methods that have worked for horses lately, that is not your fault, it is theirs.

If I were in your shoes, I would thank him and politely go somewhere else. Somewhere that is willing to take your money AND have adult conversation about the treatment of your horse.
 
I haven't read all the other replies but I would ask your vet why? What is his opinion, what does he think will happen if you leave the shoes off?

I spoke to my vet and farrier extensively about removing the shoes and I stated the facts, told them why I wanted to try what I did and they couldn't really argue! After all, it's my decision at the end of the day and they cannot force you into anything you do not want to do. My vet was more anxious than my farrier ironically as he had seen strasser horses and so was worried about leaving him in pain whilst he transitioned. After reassurances that would not be the case, he came around to my way of thinking and is even planning to visit the barefoot rehab facility in Devon ( ;) ) as he is so interested :)
 
Emilieu said:
Hope this makes sense, i'm in a bit of a frazzle.
Deano went in for futher investigations into his lameness today. If it is navicular as they suspect then I had decided I would start by trying him barefoot - I have enlisted the help of a specialist who came highly recommended on the phoneix forum and is coming to see him next week. He advised me to say to the vet to leave his shoes off if they took them off to x-ray which I duly did today. The vet's reply was 'if the pain is coming from there we cannot leave him unshod.' Pretty definate. Feel a bit lost, like i would be insisting he left my darling boy in pain just on a whim of mine. What would you do? All opinions welcome, thank you xx
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Sorry to hear this. The BFB will be along to advise also ......


All I can say is that a 30 year old here has navicular he is shod all round. They tried normal shoes for a break but he went footy again. He is now back in the natural balance shoes and he is happy again.

They will not leave him barefoot so in his NB shoes he stays
 
As another poster has said, your reply should be "boots and pads " - I wish with all my heart I'd done this when I was in your situation, I went with remedial shoes and it only put off the inevitable, my mare is now barefoot and in boots/pads for hard/frosty ground. (3 months into transition)

I know it is really hard though, you have my sympathy if it helps !
 
Yes I like the boots and pads answer. I don't know why i didn't think of that.
My vet is actually fabulous - both the guy i spoke to (who runs the practice)the girl who is directly dealing with Deano. I am still hoping that we will be able to discuss it all reasonably but his reply just threw me when I was feeling a bit fragile (hate him being away from me and out of my control) and I lost all my confidence in myself and in my arguments! Think he was just puzzled as to what on earth I was on about as i don't think he has considered barefoot at all and was just thinking about getting the NB shoes on.

I'm not going to end up torturing Deano am i? I just want to do right by him.

Leg_end 'barefoot rehab facility in Devon' made me chortle :D

Thanks everyone. Knew this was going to be hard but doesn't make it any easier!
 
Just speak to your vet and clarify why. There may well be reasons that means it is better at this stage to keep shoes on. Also, but if you on an insurance claim, going against your vet may well invalidate some of your claim.

I would draw a deep breath, if necessary write down your questions and ask him. I would not automatically assume the best way forward was barefoot anymore than I automatically shoeing is the ultimate answer. Good luck with your boy
 
Ask Nic Barker if she will speak to your vet, then ask your vet to speak to Nic Barker. If that's not possible, point him at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com



It is so hard when your experts are against you, Emilieu, even if they are wrong (and they are!)

I have just started jumping and galloping a horse which has been lame for the last four years. He is loving life in full work with no shoes on :) His vets and farriers were wrong to insist on remedial shoeing too.

He's my second full rehab, the first had remedial shoes, adequan, cartrophen, HLA and tildren and was still lame. Now, he wins at his National Breed Show, drag hunts, and wins at Elementary dressage barefoot with the lovely people who I gave him to.
 
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I would go with your gut and go ahead with your app with the trimmer. At the end of the day you wouldnt go to your doctor and ask him to give your teeth a check up. You need someone who understands feet but more than that you need someone who understands how a barefoot horse works. There is no point putting shoes back on if your horse is lame in them. Also try not to stress until youve had trimmer out. If hes any good he/she will make you feel ten times better and more confident about your decision.
 
I think what you don't want to do is get too oppositional with your vet straightaway.
So I would say that you want to research all the options so please can he leave shoes off and you'll keep him comfortable with boots and pads while you discuss all the options.
Then with a bit of breathing space you can point him in rockley's direction. You can also arm yourself with research on remedial farriery so you can all have an informed discussion.
 
I think what you could do is explain to your vet precisely WHY you think it would be beneficial to try the shoes off route. He/ she may not be aware of the work done at places like Rockley Farm, as many vets aren't, so you could start by explaining that there has been a good success rate rehabbing navicular horses by taking the shoes off. Say something like "I understand you are skeptical but I think it would be in the best interests of my horse to give it a try. Would you mind looking into the work done at Rockley Farm/ speak to Nic Barker, and then we can discuss it further". I do get that it's very difficult when you want to do one thing but the vet disagrees, because goodness knows we all rely upon the support of professionals! But quite often vets think remedial shoeing is the only way round hoof problems, not because barefoot doesn't work, but because it is the only method they have been taught. Also, as someone on another thread said recently, barefoot can seem to be a bit too much like doing nothing for some vets!

My sister's horse, who I'm currently looking after, went to Rockley Farm in April this year about 12 months after a navicular diagnosis. The farrier who was doing his remedial work had been asked about taking his shoes off (they couldn't keep in sound in remedial shoes, even when x-rays showed the balance of his feet looked quite good) but had said it wouldn't work for him for various reasons. She wasn't exactly anti-barefoot, because she'd been very supportive when I asked her to take my mare's shoes off, but for whatever reason she believed it wouldn't work for my sister's horse. The vet initially took this line, but it got to a point where she said that remedial shoes were just not working for him and the shoes would have to come off. Now, I do wish that we had down about Rockley earlier and had taken his shoes off at the start, instead of going through 12 horrible months of remedial shoeing and extended periods of box rest. I suspect his recovery process would have been much quicker if his shoes had been taken off to start with. His feet were mad when he went to Rockley - they honestly looked absolutely bonkers - but he is now doing incredibly well. 12 months ago we didn't believe he'd ever come sound, but here we are, with a sound and happy horse :D
 
criso said:
I think what you don't want to do is get too oppositional with your vet straightaway.
So I would say that you want to research all the options so please can he leave shoes off and you'll keep him comfortable with boots and pads while you discuss all the options.
Then with a bit of breathing space you can point him in rockley's direction. You can also arm yourself with research on remedial farriery so you can all have an informed discussion.
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Thank you this is what I was aiming to do before panic took over.
Right, deep breath. You are all right. I need to calmly and clearly explain myself - must remember that vet cannot read my mind.

Thank you for sharing your positive stories, just lost my head there a bit i think!
 
Most people have wrote what I would write so nothing to add part from my lad was lame in different types of shoeing and I considered pts as he wouldn't come sound. Barefoot with boots/pads on here was given as a option so I followed it and since the shoes come of he's not been lame and back in work ( been 3 months) I wish I had saved my money on shoes and tried barefoot earlier.
 
Yes I like the boots and pads answer. I don't know why i didn't think of that.
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Sorry - I know my earlier post might have sounded a bit flippant ;) I was on the iPad and it drives me mad trying to write proper replies!

I'm serious, though. "Shod" can include a whole range of footwear, including hoof boots. If you need to get a set of hoof boots quickly, the Ferries (local farriery firm) stock them in their farriers supplies shop (don't know if your practice use the Ferries - they are the usual remedial farriers used around Glasgow, but if so, ask that the farrier removing the shoes brings along a set of hoof boots).

Ask the vet exactly what about "Shod" is going to improve comfort, and whether this can be achieved using a good balanced trim (hopefully balance informed by x-rays they will take), plus hoof boots/pads when not standing on a conformable surface. Point out that "you have heard that navicular is usually caused by shoeing" and that is your rationale for allowing the feet a rest from shoeing to allow them to heal. And that you would at no stage allow the horse to be in any discomfort.

If that answers their questions, you should be able to go ahead.

Not sure which vet practice you are using - some are more open minded than others. One local vet, giving a talk to local riding club on feet and lameness problems actually mentioned using a trimmer rather than a farrier to maintain a barefoot horse.
 
I think OP needs to find out whether

a) your vet is open minded and thinks barefoot can help some navicular horses, but there is a reason why he thinks this horse shouldn’t go barefoot at this point in time.

b)Your vet is not open minded never going to be happy about a navicular horse going barefoot

Many vets and farriers do believe barefoot to be best. But many have also seen it done badly with footsore horses that are in pain, and not great trimming, and therefore aren’t very keen when owners suggest it.

I can see why vets don’t currently whole-heartedly recommend it for problem horses. I don’t think it is the easy route for some horses. It depends on your facilities, your support and your skill set.
 
bouncing_ball said:
I think OP needs to find out whether

a) your vet is open minded and thinks barefoot can help some navicular horses, but there is a reason why he thinks this horse shouldn’t go barefoot at this point in time.

b)Your vet is not open minded never going to be happy about a navicular horse going barefoot

Many vets and farriers do believe barefoot to be best. But many have also seen it done badly with footsore horses that are in pain, and not great trimming, and therefore aren’t very keen when owners suggest it.

I can see why vets don’t currently whole-heartedly recommend it for problem horses. I don’t think it is the easy route for some horses. It depends on your facilities, your support and your skill set.
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I think the reason it's not recommended routinely despite the probability of wanting to is because the lack of absolute regulation.

The EPAUK & UKNHCP are self regulating and improving and are trying to get more vets and farriers on board but it is a slow process especially when you are pedalling against a wall called the FRC who insist that only farriers should be responsible for horses hooves.

Personally I think this monopoly will be to the detriment of horsecare.... ultimately it will be the punters that determine the fate of them. The demand is there (better hoofcare I mean, not barefoot) but the FRC seem to just pretend it's not there and prosecute anyone who tries to do best by the horse. (Cases in point are on the FRC website). Lunacy.
 
Well it looks like we cannot indeed leave him unshod. I did my best but the vet says he is just not a viable candidate at the moment. His pedal bone has dropped and his sole is so thin that to take him barefoot at the moment with the ground so hard would put him at risk of trauma induced laminitis. Compromise is that we will work with farrier to try and get his feet better with an aim to going barefoot long term - at a better time of year.
I'm really disappointed but would never forgive myself if I didn't follow advice and ended up losing him :( so back to the vet next week for xrays and consultation with farrier.
Thanks everyone for your ideas and input.
 
Yeah I know, I was so looking forward to taking them off but she was very clear about it being an excellent option for some horses but not for him :( maybe next year.
On the upside I now know a huge amount more about feet!
 
Emilieu said:
Well it looks like we cannot indeed leave him unshod. I did my best but the vet says he is just not a viable candidate at the moment. His pedal bone has dropped and his sole is so thin that to take him barefoot at the moment with the ground so hard would put him at risk of trauma induced laminitis. Compromise is that we will work with farrier to try and get his feet better with an aim to going barefoot long term - at a better time of year.
I'm really disappointed but would never forgive myself if I didn't follow advice and ended up losing him :( so back to the vet next week for xrays and consultation with farrier.
Thanks everyone for your ideas and input.
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Emilieu you need to take a good look at the diet information on barefoot threads, they apply equally to shod horses. The most likely thing to thicken up soles is diet changes. If they are that thin, then I would also recommend that you test him for Cushings and for IR, because I have now heard of several horses whose only symptoms are footiness, and both those diseases will cause thin soles and dropped pedal bones.

Be very honest with yourself and if he is at all overweight, try to get the weight off as that can affect the feet too.


FWIW I agree with your vet. This frozen ground is murder on horses with thin or sensitive soles and until the risk is gone I would continue to shoe.
 
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