We have toilet issues.

[blackcob]

I knew I spoke too soon, the halo is slipping off those pointy ears...

She's very, very reluctant to toilet outside. She poos on the stable yard (while I'm mucking out she's tied to a long line and trundles around the yard or chews her kong) but seems very nervous about doing it - the first time she yelped and cowered back against the stables, despite my immediate and enthusiastic praise. She's only pooed in our back yard once, and that was because we caught her about to squat in the house and put her straight outside, then praised when she finished up out there.

She had a 15 minute walk at 7.00 this morning, just came back from a 45 minute walk at 11.00 and while I was taking off my wellies she went straight upstairs and pooed on the floor.

I couldn't scold her as I didn't catch her in the act.

She did the same yesterday - she had lots of little walks throughout the day, plus a last wee break at 10.30, but didn't wee the entire day - then when we put her in the crate last thing she immediately weed in the crate.

Once she's actually weed she's clean for a full eight hours through the night, but she simply won't empty her bladder outside before she comes to bed.

We're trying to crack the separation anxiety she has and have had some success but there's no point trying to leave her for longer periods if she's got a full bladder and will wee out of anxiety.

Any ideas?

 

[CorvusCorax]

You say she yelped when she went, what is she being fed? Sounds like it actually hurt her. Did he have a bone or eat anything sharp or hard?

I would try and confine her to the area in which she can actually go inside.
No one wants to pooh where they go to sleep, right?
So no easy access to all areas of the house at the moment.

She is just a wee bit insecure and isn't so sure of her place yet.

My fella will hold it for hours rather than go in his run, the first section of our walk includes a mad dash to the nearest bit of grass so he can go.

You will eventually learn her routine, when she is fed, when she needs to go. Keep an eye on her for the next few days and when she starts to circle and look like she is about to go, step in and put her out, loads of praise when she does go.

At this stage, when she is new, you will NEED to watch her to learn her routine.

(Oh and do you think her previous owner would have told her off, done the 'face-rubbing' thing if he caught her pooing? If she seems that desperate to do it when you are not there?)

 

[blackcob]

[ QUOTE ]
You say she yelped when she went, what is she being fed? Sounds like it actually hurt her. Did he have a bone or eat anything sharp or hard?

[/ QUOTE ]

The poo was large but really soft, proper Mister Whippee style.

She hadn't been with us for long at all then and I think it was a bit of stress-runs, subsequent poos have been large but firmer. I think she was scared that I was going to react badly, while she yelped she was holding eye contact with me.

She hasn't had any bones yet, while we're trying to establish a toilet routine she has two set mealtimes and I take the bowl up afterwards even if she leaves a bit. She's on Hills large breed puppy dry kibble - the same as she was fed previously - and I was hoping to keep her on that until about 9 months and then gradually change over to something else.


[ QUOTE ]
(Oh and do you think her previous owner would have told her off, done the 'face-rubbing' thing if he caught her pooing? If she seems that desperate to do it when you are not there?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly, although he seemed to know what he was doing so I'd be disappointed if that was the case. He mentioned that he walked them on MOD land so I wonder if he's discouraged them from pooing outside (and facing the wrath of the MOD if they find poo), but she won't even go in our yard.

She definitely knows she's not meant to go inside - she cowers and hides while I'm cleaning it up.

She slept in a crate in her old home, although she shared it with another dog. I'm really surprised that she'll wee in the crate, I've never met a dog yet that will do that! She had literally been outside five minutes before she peed in the crate yesterday, and she seemed very happy to do it in there and didn't cower or hide at all.

The only thing I haven't tried is taking her out for a walk and not coming back until she's toileted, as suggested by some sources I've been reading, but she can hold both for 24 hours.

 

[blackcob]

I just went to the toilet and came back to find that she'd weed on her downstairs bed - she'd been let out five minutes previously - I'm trying so, so hard not to be angry.

If she'd just go once outside we'd crack it, I am the master of over-enthusiastic, treat-giving, tug-toy-playing praise for good behaviour!

I've never ever known a dog to go to where it sleeps to wee.

 

[Spudlet]

There's no chance she's got a little UTI from the stress of the move is there?

 

[blackcob]

Are there specific symptoms of a UTI in dogs? When she goes (on the rare occasion I've seen her) she doesn't strain, there's plenty of wee and it's not a funny colour or cloudy or anything. She drinks immediately after a meal and then another couple of times throughout the day.

She's going to the vet's on Wednesday to be microchipped so I will ask him to give her nether regions an MOT as well.

 

[kirstyhen]

Otto won't poo whilst out on a normal lead, he will on the lunge line, but not on a short lead. Perhaps that is part of the problem?
Also does your garden have a grassy patch? Otto won't go on concrete, fussy little swine he is!

Otto used to pee in his bed, and ours given half the chance

How big is her crate? Is it big enough she can pee one end and lie down in the other? if so you need to section it off somehow so that it's only big enough for her to lie down in, that way she should be more reluctant to pee exactly where she lies. If it's small, then I'm out of ideas

 

[spaniel]

This sounds like time needed to settle to me.

I know its hard not to feel cross when she is getting it all wrong but even internal 'crossness' (??) is picked up by a sensitive dog so it may be worth taking the view that you couldnt care less for a while. Once she stops the cowering when poooing (and when you are clearing up) then may be the time to start requiring her to perform in the correct place.

I think that while she is still anxious (and I have no doubt that she has had a hammering at the old home for pooing indoors) you are perhaps asking too much to resolve all the issues in one fell swoop.

 

[Spudlet]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there specific symptoms of a UTI in dogs? When she goes (on the rare occasion I've seen her) she doesn't strain, there's plenty of wee and it's not a funny colour or cloudy or anything. She drinks immediately after a meal and then another couple of times throughout the day.

She's going to the vet's on Wednesday to be microchipped so I will ask him to give her nether regions an MOT as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, that's what I'd be looking for so maybe not.

Henry refuses to go at home too unless in dire straights, generally he holds until we go out.

 

[MollyMoomin]

[ QUOTE ]

Also does your garden have a grassy patch? Otto won't go on concrete, fussy little swine he is!

How big is her crate? Is it big enough she can pee one end and lie down in the other? if so you need to section it off somehow so that it's only big enough for her to lie down in, that way she should be more reluctant to pee exactly where she lies. If it's small, then I'm out of ideas

[/ QUOTE ]

Herman is the same - he might poo on a road walk but not wee - he won't even cock his leg (which as something he has only recently 'learnt' he's keen to do this as often as he can!) Maybe it splashes? Also we had a huge crate for him to 'grow into' but it wasn't until he was about 20weeks (and significantly bigger than when we bought him) that he stopped soiling overnight, despite a last thing half an hour walk before bed.

One thing I swear helped us with Herman was the DAP diffuser and spray - he was calmer on a night and didn't wake up as often - less opportunity?

There was another suggestion I had but I can't remember what it was

I'll post again when I remember...

 

[Nickijem]

Aww Blackcob, I do feel your pain.
I am NO expert at all but I do know that it is really early days so try not to get disheartened. She is bound to be unsettled still.
I bragged about Purdey being house-trained then yesterday we had 3 wees in the house!
Today, she has been better although I'll try not to speak too soon.
You are doing a great job with her, I'm sure she will soon sort out her issues!

 

[CAYLA]

It is not uncommon for a dog to hold or refuse to pass in certain areas in a new environment, specailly a one devoid of scent or as suggested the stress factor of being in a new environment and introduction of new routines, you will never know 100% if she was fully house trained before you took her either, this comes with the teritory of taking on adult dogs.
she would certainly have been in a crate as u would see sign of stress so he is obs not lying about that, but if she did share it is highly uncommon a dog will pass a motion whilst crated with another dog.....I have trained many a difficult toilet case by having them share, and as much as I have commonly whitnessed dogs defecate/urinate in their own crate when alone, I have never seen a sharing pair do it.

You need to create a routine, and if u can down size the crate or divide it to lessen the space and place a plastic bed within in, so she has to curl up in the space, u can gradually increase the space as u go, keep her in the same room as u at all times, so when she begins to pass a motion like u already have , guide her out the door even if she has started, as u suggest when in a different room u cannot correct or guide her.
Also try some puppy pads and spray and training spray and try placing some in the yard area to encourage her to start to pee and scent to encourage her to carry on.
It's not uncommon for them to hold urine for a good while in a new home (as gazey)

amy held on and held on then she finally woke her in the early hours of the 2nd or 3rd morning for a pee

 

[MollyMoomin]

:lightbulb: You can get a scent marker to use in a garden... I'll try and find a link to what I mean

Here - the Pee Post!

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
:lightbulb: You can get a scent marker to use in a garden... I'll try and find a link to what I mean

[/ QUOTE ]

It's prob the smae as I mentioned above, it will be a type of training spray

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
:lightbulb: You can get a scent marker to use in a garden... I'll try and find a link to what I mean

Here - the Pee Post!

[/ QUOTE ]

I have bought a few of those.....cheaper than that

but that is still cheap.....anyhow I did get good feed back from dogs but not so good for bitches but def worth a try to get that initial scent introduced.
I origionally got one for the akita x shepherd I rehomed as had seen one in the whole salers and mentioned it as a joke and the fella asked me to get one, and he did say it was good.

 

[MurphysMinder]

The fact that she is cowering after she has done it makes me think she has been punished for going in the wrong place and is now really stressed about where to go. When you walk her is she walked on grass? I know mine prefer to go on grass than their concrete runs, they will hold on for ages until they hit the green stuff. Also when you walk do you give her time to sniff and look for a spot, rather than walking briskly along? She has had a lot of changes, apart from a new home if she was crated with another dog she would probably have been quite dependent on that if she was with it from a young pup, so I expect she will need to get used to being away from that too.
I imagine it is just going to take time, if you can manage to stay out on her walk until she has weed, or perhaps come back from the walk and stay in the yard until she has done so, she will hopefully get the message that is the right place to go. Might also be worth checking with her previous owner what command he used so you can use the same one.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not uncommon for them to hold urine for a good while in a new home (as gazey)

amy held on and held on then she finally woke her in the early hours of the 2nd or 3rd morning for a pee

[/ QUOTE ]

She still isnt in the same routine as my two

They are both completely regular now - pee and poo in the morning, pee and poo when I get home, pee last thing at night.

Amy just does it when she feels like it, I have given up worrying as she is ALWAYS clean inside

Which is more than I can say for Flick, even after having her for a year

 

[blackcob]

[ QUOTE ]
:lightbulb: You can get a scent marker to use in a garden... I'll try and find a link to what I mean

Here - the Pee Post!

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried the cheapskate version of using the wad of paper towels I mopped the wee up with and putting them in a nice spot in the yard, she was keen to sniff them but has yet to be stimulated to perform near it (if there's any pee scent left, it's snowing heavily now!). I don't mind if she doesn't learn to go in the garden, I know some dogs won't go on concrete no matter what, but she's given the opportunity several times a day to go on lots of different surfaces.

 

[blackcob]

For some reason my last (gigantic) post in response to MurphysMinder has been deleted. o_0

Anyway, the condensed version was that if she doesn't wee or poo on a walk, from now on she stays in one room with me and I watch her like a hawk - the second she squats it's out to the yard with praise. There will eventually come a point where she's forced to go in front of me and then I can take her outside.

She's walked on all surfaces - I tend to walk her briskly forward in the village because she's easily distracted by people and dogs, and it gives us a chance to work on her focus on me and stop her pulling, but once we hit the fields she's told 'go on then' and is allowed to wander as much as she wants. She's extremely scent orientated, stopping every five yards to sniff, with muggins here trailing on behind squeaking 'go weewee!'

Today we've covered grassy fields, dirt fields, muddy and leafy forest and even a big pile of woodshavings that several dogs had already made use of.

It's breaking my heart because she's obviously stressed about the situation, I just want her to do one pee outside so I can make a huge song and dance about it and reassure her that it's the right thing to do.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Good good

Does she stay out in the back yard for prolonged periods yet?

My dogs don't wee or poo in the house (IT WAS HIS ANTIBIOTICS, OK???) because they know it is a treat to be inside - outside is for walking, pooing, inside is for sleeping and being really, really good.

I am not suggesting you make her an outdoors dog but once you get into a routine I am sure you will see a difference and there is no harm in being out back for a while.

 

[blackcob]

Nah, she won't stay in the yard unless one of us is there - she's never been left alone before and utterly hates it. With the use of stuffed kongs, a stopwatch and me coming in and out every few minutes like a wally she's now happy to stay in the kitchen (mop-clean floor and nothing to destroy

) for up to 20 minutes without howling. Hopefully she'll soon be able to do the same out back.

She's incredibly good in the house otherwise, she goes to her bed when asked and stays there, totally ignores us eating at the table and plays when we initiate it. She jumped up at OH when he got back this evening but when he said a firm 'down' she immediately sat and waited for him to take his coat and shoes off before going for a calm fuss, brilliant.

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not uncommon for a dog to hold or refuse to pass in certain areas in a new environment, specailly a one devoid of scent or as suggested the stress factor of being in a new environment and introduction of new routines, you will never know 100% if she was fully house trained before you took her either, this comes with the teritory of taking on adult dogs.
she would certainly have been in a crate as u would see sign of stress so he is obs not lying about that, but if she did share it is highly uncommon a dog will pass a motion whilst crated with another dog.....I have trained many a difficult toilet case by having them share, and as much as I have commonly whitnessed dogs defecate/urinate in their own crate when alone, I have never seen a sharing pair do it.

You need to create a routine, and if u can down size the crate or divide it to lessen the space and place a plastic bed within in, so she has to curl up in the space, u can gradually increase the space as u go, keep her in the same room as u at all times, so when she begins to pass a motion like u already have , guide her out the door even if she has started, as u suggest when in a different room u cannot correct or guide her.
Also try some puppy pads and spray and training spray and try placing some in the yard area to encourage her to start to pee and scent to encourage her to carry on.
It's not uncommon for them to hold urine for a good while in a new home (as gazey)

amy held on and held on then she finally woke her in the early hours of the 2nd or 3rd morning for a pee

[/ QUOTE ]

Would it help if OP picked up some poop and actually placed it outside in the yard, where she wants the dog to go? Maybe when outside pup will smell her own scent and perhaps associate it as a toilet area? The same could be done for wee, if the OP wipes a rag outside in a few areas after cleaning up an accident.

I have issues in reverse with Harvey. He rarely wees or poohs on walks as he's not confident enough, I presume, to leave his scent where he can smell other dogs. He waits until he gets into the yard and then goes before we go back in the house. Quite funny really.

 

[CorvusCorax]

[ QUOTE ]
Nah, she won't stay in the yard unless one of us is there - she's never been left alone before and utterly hates it. With the use of stuffed kongs, a stopwatch and me coming in and out every few minutes like a wally she's now happy to stay in the kitchen (mop-clean floor and nothing to destroy

) for up to 20 minutes without howling. Hopefully she'll soon be able to do the same out back.

She's incredibly good in the house otherwise, she goes to her bed when asked and stays there, totally ignores us eating at the table and plays when we initiate it. She jumped up at OH when he got back this evening but when he said a firm 'down' she immediately sat and waited for him to take his coat and shoes off before going for a calm fuss, brilliant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad that you are getting her used to spending time alone because IMO dogs need to get used to spending at least some time alone.
Obviously mine are outdoors dogs and used to spending time on their own, but when a dog is in company 24/7 and for some reason someone is unable to come home due to some sort of emergency, or has to work late etc, it really is good to let them know that the sky will not fall in if they do not have constant company.

Oh and sorry to badger you

replace 'down' with 'off' - down should mean to 'lie down' or replace that command with 'flat' or 'drop' - if a dog is lying on the sofa and you say 'down' - well, you see where the confusion lies, don't you?

It's already lying down.

Glad to hear she is doing well otherwise

 

[Patches]

dogshelf - I love that term for getting off the sofa. I've always used it. Humans sit on sofas, dogs sit on the dogshelf aka floor.

 

[blackcob]

[ QUOTE ]


Oh and sorry to badger you

replace 'down' with 'off' - down should mean to 'lie down' or replace that command with 'flat' or 'drop' - if a dog is lying on the sofa and you say 'down' - well, you see where the confusion lies, don't you?

It's already lying down.



[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, lol! Only OH actually has to tell her, I just have to point and/or glare and she immediately sits. Makes me feel all alpha.

I am sure what few training techniques I've been using will be put through the wringer when we start classes, she's got her first puppy socialisation class in a fortnight...

 

[blackcob]

[ QUOTE ]
The same could be done for wee, if the OP wipes a rag outside in a few areas after cleaning up an accident.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I did that with some wee - I used paper towels to mop up the worst so I could put the bed in the wash and then put two piles of the wet towels in the yard to provide a sort of target area. She gave them a good sniff but then ignored them, you never know she might go back to them again on her evening wee break. Fingers crossed.

 

[blackcob]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm glad that you are getting her used to spending time alone because IMO dogs need to get used to spending at least some time alone.



[/ QUOTE ]

There will come a point where she'll have to be alone for up to four hours at a time so I wanted to start as early as possible. She's been left up to six hours before but with another dog so we're pretty much starting from scratch.

At the moment OH is leaving work early some days and I'm skipping one lecture a week so she's never on her own but we can only realistically sustain this for a few weeks, so here's hoping I can get her up to half an hour at a time this weekend!

We're going to visit a friend this weekend whose two lovely calm dogs can be left in the house all day, I'm hoping some of their calm nature will rub off on her.

 

[Patches]

Firmly crossed fingers here for you.

 

[MurphysMinder]

The more I read about her the more I think she is actually quite stressed at the moment. She seems far too well behaved for a 6 month old pup, apart frm the house training.

Sounds like you are doing everything right and hopefully she will settle down soon and become a normal mad pup, and you will no doubt be wishing you had the quiet little soul you have now.

 

[blackcob]

She's had a mad half hour this morning, the personality is definitely coming through.

She nicked a carrot out of the horse's feed bucket, carried it in her mouth all the way home in the car and then waited until she hit the living room carpet before summarily shredding it (those who commented on the cleanliness of my carpet, if only you could see it now...

)

Oh, and when OH let her out of the crate this morning she immediately attempted to climb onto my face in bed, with as much wet nose and flailing paws as possible.

She did both a wee and a poo on the stable yard this morning, I'm amazed you all didn't hear me squealing 'WEEWEE GOOD GIIIIIRRRLLL' and basically throwing a party about it.