Weight loss and vet's advice

Sprogladite01

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Has anyone ever been told by their vet to reduce their pony's hay down to 1% soaked - I always thought the absolute bottom line was 1.2% and even then only in "extreme" cases? I've got my little welsh sec a on soaked as he is very overweight - but he is a companion pony who does no exercise whatsoever and a VERY good doer.

I'm just a bit concerned about cutting him down even further as it already feels like I'm starving him and while I can do it, going out multiple times a day to give him tiny bits of soaked hay is draining. He currently goes out for grazing for two hours in the morning, then it's 1/2 kg soaked hay at 10:30am, 1/2kg soaked hay at 1:00pm, honeychop lite (won't eat topchop zero anymore) at 3:00pm, 1kg soaked hay at 5:30pm, balancer at 7:15pm and then he gets 3kg soaked hay overnight. Currently this is very slightly under 1.2% according to his current weight.

His body condition score is around 4 out of 5 and I know he needs to lose weight - he has been on restricted grazing and a strict diet for nearly a year. With all that being said, he is not cresty, has not had lami (yet) and seems to hold it more in his belly than anywhere else. He has also lost some weight since summer, just very, very slowly. Vet has just done a worm count on him too and fecal was negative, waiting for blood test results.

Edit to add: vet also insisted on bloods to test his insulin levels but they came back as in normal range. Same as last year.

I am more inclined to start taking him for in hand walks than I am to cut his hay any further. I've also toyed with the idea of chucking him out full time and seeing if he self regulates - possibly on a track to get him moving. Just a bit worried it's asking for lami given he's a fat native!

Would welcome any thoughts or ideas...
 

The Xmas Furry

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The 2 x M's will usually work on short chubbers, Muzzle and Movement.

My mini companion gets led out at least 4 or 5 times a week, is in at day and out at night. She was prone to laminitis and obesity.
If out with B then she's in a grazing muzzle and can roam a good distance on long grass, currently about 3 acres, usually 3 or 4nights a week, the other nights are in a small diet paddock to keep it down, without muzzle.

Took me 2 years but now she can regulate and have ad lib hay when stabled.
 

Burnttoast

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I would be inclined to do an equibiome test and make sure all his forage is unsprayed, to ensure he's not ingesting any endocrine-disrupting chemicals. It's not always about how much they're eating.
 

smolmaus

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I don't know what the grazing is like obviously but if he's restricted and hungry first thing he could be absolutely hoovering grass in those 2 hours. Even if the grass isn't great he could be offsetting the rest of what you're doing pretty easily when you're working with such fine margins.

While you wait for blood and fecal you could do one of his 1/2kilo of soaked hay rations before he goes out so he doesn't go eating-contest/mukbang mode when he sees grass? I have to do this with my mares nets, she gets a little bit before her night net goes in or she attacks it so single-mindedly its gone in an hour.
 

Aperchristmas

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Firstly I would feed him some hay before turnout because as smolmaus said, he will just be hoovering the grass otherwise - don't put him out on an empty stomach.
Otherwise, I think a track system would be a good next step. He's currently getting almost no movement and that's not great for a horse. If he's already 4/5 on the condition scale, it's worth trying something else as what you're doing now is already tough.
 

Floofball

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Could he go out for longer with a muzzle? I used to put a sec A companion out overnight in a muzzle (all but the worst of winter) and in with soaked hay during the day and he was fine. Also agree with having straw available to eat if hungry.
 

windand rain

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My former laminitic dartmoor thrives on a track he has learned that he can nibble all day so not restricted I did have to make the track a horseshoe as he was too clever by half until one end was blocked off. He could work out the shortest distance to what he wanted so he was fed at one end and had water at the other so had to move as far as possible. He is slim now infact you can see his ribs he is on hay and feed daily too
 

Sprogladite01

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Thanks everyone, some food for thought here. I'll make sure he's got a little something in his tummy before he goes out - didn't even think of that to be honest. I am somewhat reluctant to muzzle him because his time in the field is the only time he gets to socialise freely with his companion and they spend a lot of time grooming together - they are split up the rest of the time so I can completely control each of their intakes. He isn't a "greedy" pony (not obviously so anyway) and is quite picky - he'll often leave the hay if it isn't up to his standards. I had a connie who I recently lost and he was a pig - could eat a day's worth in about an hour I reckon - little man definitely isn't like that. I will get him a muzzle though if all else fails!

I think a track + more exercise is the way to go for him - just need to find the hours in the day. Track will be good for his companion too as she has EMS. Not worried about her as she is losing weight at the moment and hasn't had a lami episode since she came to me (actively laminitic) on loan in October. So feels like she is under control at least!
 

Polos Mum

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If he refuses to eat top chop zero - I'd offer him that, it's nice quality feed grade straw - if he was hungry he'd eat it.
If he chooses not to - that's up to him

If I was only offered nice roast dinner and chocolate cake every day I would certainly turn my nose up at rice cakes and definitely be fatter than I should be.

I think they did some muzzle research which looked at how much they could eat in a 2 hour 'break' it was amazing amounts.

If you adjust your calculation to estimate more being consumed from grazing - does that work better.

If he really was on the limit of low calorie intake - he would be losing weight and he's not - so something is amiss somewhere.
 

Gamebird

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With the regards to the %, 1.2% is the absolute lowest recommended, but it includes ALL of the horse's feed intake - so that is for a horse that doesn't go out at all. If yours gets some grazing, then I think that would be why your vet was happy to drop below the 1.2% hay.

Ponies are also binge eaters. They did some research on ponies that were given 2hrs grazing a day, and their actual grass consumption equalled that of ponies out 24/7. They get to know that time is restricted, so they gorge.
 

Sprogladite01

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You say he's a companion but you don't mention what the horse he's a companion to does. Could you ride and lead rather than take him for in hand walks? It would save you time.

It's a bit of an odd one - he was a companion to my ridden connemara, who I lost in October (the beautiful boy in my avatar). I borrowed a companion for him from a neighbour who is wintering with me so he wasn't on his own. She is only 4 and owner wants her to have a winter break after being broken in last summer, hence why she is with me on loan. He is INCREDIBLY spooky and reactive so wouldn't feel comfortable taking him any further than to my next door neighbour's (huge) arena for walking. He was taken off the welsh hills as a feral 18 month old and then lived in a sanctuary until he was 6, when I adopted him - he's now 8. He has seen very little of the world, probably because nobody wants to risk him exploding if they take him out. I am tentatively starting to think about getting a ridden horse again but don't think riding and leading is going to be an option for us unfortunately - certainly not until we have mastered it on foot first :)
 

Sprogladite01

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With the regards to the %, 1.2% is the absolute lowest recommended, but it includes ALL of the horse's feed intake - so that is for a horse that doesn't go out at all. If yours gets some grazing, then I think that would be why your vet was happy to drop below the 1.2% hay.

Ponies are also binge eaters. They did some research on ponies that were given 2hrs grazing a day, and their actual grass consumption equalled that of ponies out 24/7. They get to know that time is restricted, so they gorge.
Yes, this is why I'm thinking putting him out for the day on a track might be better for him. I'm just worried about lami, especially due to his current weight and because the one I have on loan has EMS.
 

2 Dragons

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Not sure if I'm seeing this right, but it looks like you are feeding him 5kg of hay a day, if that is around 1.2% he must weigh over 400kg which seems a lot for a little section a.
 

Sprogladite01

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Not sure if I'm seeing this right, but it looks like you are feeding him 5kg of hay a day, if that is around 1.2% he must weigh over 400kg which seems a lot for a little section a.
He weigh tapes at 420, but tbh I don't think he's that much - that's more than my connie weighed when I lost him and he's only 11.1hh. My connie was 410 on a weighbridge (he was at the vet a lot so I had him weighed regularly while we were there anyway). However vet is insisting I go by what the weigh tape says...which I have my sincere doubts about given it put my connie at 530!

Just to edit, I found a note on my phone which said little man weigh taped at 330 in July 21 - so a definite increase regardless of accuracy in spite of a reduction of both hay and turnout.
 

JFTDWS

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I can't imagine an 11hh pony which weighs 420kg and is only a 4 on BCS. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems highly unlikely to me - my 14,2 highlands weight tape around there when properly fit (although they do weigh considerably more on a weigh bridge).

I'd imagine your pony weighs quite a lot less, so 1% of the tape value doesn't seem ridiculous. That said, I'd personally look into cutting hay with straw for bulk, track systems and getting him doing some sort of slow work in hand.
 

The Xmas Furry

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I can't imagine an 11hh pony which weighs 420kg and is only a 4 on BCS. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems highly unlikely to me - my 14,2 highlands weight tape around there when properly fit (although they do weigh considerably more on a weigh bridge).

I'd imagine your pony weighs quite a lot less, so 1% of the tape value doesn't seem ridiculous. That said, I'd personally look into cutting hay with straw for bulk, track systems and getting him doing some sort of slow work in hand.
I agree!
My 14hh Fell mare is 440 currently but will trim back to 415/420 when back in full work, weighed on weigh bridge twice yearly.

OP, are you really sure an 11hh pony is really that heavy? ???
 

Leandy

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Agree with others that you need to include his grazing in any calculations you make if you are trying to calculate his total consumption. At the end of the day though, if he is not losing weight then he is getting too many calories, whatever you have calculated his intake as. Just reduce gradually until he starts to lose weight and increase again when he's the right weight. It isn't rocket science. It sounds to me as though your grazing is not suitable for him. I'd be aiming for poorer grazing and more time out moving about.
 

Palindrome

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My 11h welsh shetland cross is about 250 kg.
isn't it 2% of the ideal bodyweight?

I was going to say could you break him to drive but it sounds like it would be difficult.
 

Sprogladite01

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Just to clarify - I definitely don't believe he is 420kg because frankly he wouldn't be able to move at his size! However, my vet is saying I have to use the 420 we've got off his weigh tape as the starting point for any calculations we make re his hay/feed/general intake.

My plan of action at the moment is to set up a track round our winter field this weekend (they are still on the summer side at the moment), get him moving in the field and then also take him for additional in hand walks 3 or 4 times a week, and possibly muzzle him while he's out so he can stay out longer.

Honestly I think a lot of his weight issues stem from the fact he's been standing on the yard bored and dozing unless there's food out there - he was kept in a lot over the last 18 months as my riding horse was going through lameness and other medical issues so he was in to keep him company with food going into his system and no real exercise to work it off - not even casual ambling about because he chooses to snooze in front of the tack room when the food has run out :rolleyes: so I think if we can get him mentally stimulated, walking around in the field, and get some weight off too then he'll be a much happier little guy!
 

JFTDWS

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In that case, I'm slightly perplexed by your original question. If he weighs less than your tape records, 1.2% of that value isn't the baseline amount of forage he can have - because 1.2% of that might be 2.5% of his actual weight. 1% (or even less) of his tape value may be what he needs in order to loose weight - hence the vet's recommendation.

What do you actually think he weighs?

BTW, if you're thinking of a grass track, it's better than nothing, but unless his companion is very high energy, he may not move a huge amount more on it than in a normal field, especially initially.
 

meleeka

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I’d put up a track around at least an acre, no more than 2m wide. You might need to start by strip grazing it (make the track, then block it off and move fence 1m daily until it’s eaten down). If you have another that’s not such a good doer you can feed them hard feed to compensate. When he comes in i’d give well soaked hay in a teeny net and a trug of something like Honeychop Lite and Healthy.

The trouble with stabling is that he’s exercising less, so it’s not really helpful for weight loss if you are then feeding hay. He’s just standing and eating as opposed to exercising while eating. A track is the only way I can keep my fatties happy during the summer months and I’m amazed at how trim it keeps them.
 

GreyDot

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5kg seems quite generous for a Sec A - firstly, I would get him weighed. Round here you can get a travelling weighbridge person to come for £10. Am surprised your vet is going off a weightape as they can be very incorrect.
Definitely set up a track system or bare paddock. You said you have access to an arena a short distance away. I would be getting that pony some exercise. He's only a section A, so even if he is spooky, you could work on the ground manners and get him walking nicely next to you until you get to the arena and then start building up walk pole work, some free schooling, get the body moving.
With spring just a couple of months ago, I would be wanting to shift that weight pronto.
 

smolmaus

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However, my vet is saying I have to use the 420 we've got off his weigh tape as the starting point for any calculations we make re his hay/feed/general intake.
Thats not wrong but if he isn't losing weight on the "starting point" value then that's a sign that the starting point is just too high.

I don't have a section A but I do have a cob with a big barrel and short legs and I might as well pick a number out of a hat as use the number the weigh tape gives me. You can keep track of weight loss or gain on the tape but if you know 420kg is wildly high then there's no point using that number at all. Thats just me being a pedant about weight-loss maths, I think you already have a good solution moving forwards. If you still don't see weight loss when he's moving more on a track just keep taking 10% off his hay ration every week or two until you do and don't worry so much about the exact numbers. Metabolism is too variable to get caught up in exact calculations.
 

LittleLegs&Co

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I've got 4 mini shetlands - and weight is a never ending problem! But - I have learned that they actually do better with access to ad-lib forage 24/7. They have to have food going through their system almost constantly to keep their hindgut healthy - if their hindgut is happy it's easier to keep them at a better weight. Tracks are amazing - mine are now on a track spring/summer/autumn, and they've been slowly working through the long grass in the middle over winter (out 6am-3pm, in overnight, no muzzles except when I was first setting the track up). I'm lucky that mine aren't actually that greedy and now do regulate intake well as they know there will always be something to eat, but if he's eating hay rations too quickly you could double or triple net it to make the holes a bit smaller? Mine also get a small feed just to get a couple of supplements in - since moving to soaked plain grass nuts as the carrier they've been noticably healthier and their weight has dropped. A tiny amount of nuts swells up to a decent looking feed. For some reason any of the 'commercial' feeds including balancers just didn't agree with them at all!
Exercise will help, but my skinniest two are actually the ones that don't work. My driving ponies definitely look a bit better covered at the moment! As for him being a handful to walk out - practice makes perfect ;-) and if you've got an arena get him doing ground work & 'free schooling' in there!
 

Annagain

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It's a bit of an odd one - he was a companion to my ridden connemara, who I lost in October (the beautiful boy in my avatar). I borrowed a companion for him from a neighbour who is wintering with me so he wasn't on his own. She is only 4 and owner wants her to have a winter break after being broken in last summer, hence why she is with me on loan. He is INCREDIBLY spooky and reactive so wouldn't feel comfortable taking him any further than to my next door neighbour's (huge) arena for walking. He was taken off the welsh hills as a feral 18 month old and then lived in a sanctuary until he was 6, when I adopted him - he's now 8. He has seen very little of the world, probably because nobody wants to risk him exploding if they take him out. I am tentatively starting to think about getting a ridden horse again but don't think riding and leading is going to be an option for us unfortunately - certainly not until we have mastered it on foot first :)

At least you don't have to ride another and walk this one at the moment though.
 
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