Weight loss, getting desperate

Alma... I ditto this, pancur is as effective, infact they are
Both considered the best on the market, but pancur is just kinder as it works over 5 lower doses not one heavy one, get a probiotic supplement going daily too and I really do reccomend haemavite b + bear In mind that if you are dealing with malabsorption then high protein and calories is the way to go, protein feeds don't aggravate the condition, because absorption is compromised you must up the quantities do compensate. On the other hand if it's hindgut ulcers, the approach will aggravate the ulcers, you really need to be certain what you are dealing with I'm afraid, I also wouldn't be taking the argument that she doubts it's ulcers, this wouldn't be good enough for me, ultimately the prognosis is better for ulcers than malabsorption... Rule this out first either by exploration or treatment... I'd be tempted to explore because treatment would need a full diet change.
 
Id definitely look into it op, and strongly reccomend protinex above pink powder, have used both x be careful with the molasses, I completely get where you are coming from but as a horse gets thinner, the viscosity of the blood increases, the risk of lami is higher bizzarly, with your horse already on steroids now (it is your horse on steroids isn't it?-I get confused lol) the risk of lami is significantly increased, I know it's good to see the energy and attitude but I'd be laying off sugar, ask your vet about a blood tonic, or order haemavite... Does the same job but much better for the horse and helps pack in the minerals and b vits
 
As I said before adding sugar to his feed is like giving an anorexic teen bars of chocolate to eat. None of us would agree that is a healthy balanced diet!

Please please please consider talking to Debbie at Thunderbrook, the basemix has all the mineral etc added to it so you dont need to be paying extra for supplements that are full of binders and fillers and will aggravate ulcers if he has them. The oats and bran will give slow release cals rather than the ups and downs of a sugar rush.
 
Queenbee said:
I have to say that you are assuming this is a problem due to worm burden... and I am arguing that a delicate gut which can cause malabsorption, should not be unbalanced with wormers when the op has already wormed. bomb worm at your own peril and at the risk of your horse IMO. I am not arguing that it isnt effective in some cases, but we are not talking about a healthy horse with a heavy worm burden. Far more chance you will further damage the horse with this method in his current state.
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Horses that I had described earlier were overly thin and not putting on weight.
AND
Despite being regularly wormed! - this is what I am trying to get across - just because a horse has been regularly wormed does not mean that the current program is managing to deal with the current burden.
Bots are still a possibility at this time of year as it takes 10 - 12 months for them to reach maturity in the gut. En masse in the gut they cause enormous damage and need to be removed. Tapeworm also cause major problems since the advent of ivomec wormers as they are not killed by Ivomec and its other relatives.

HAve a read of this article from Wormers direct.
wormers-direct.co.uk

CESTODES

TAPEWORM (Anoplocephala perfoliata, Anoplocephala magna & Anoplocephaloides mamillana)

Tapeworms are an important and potentially very damaging parasite affecting the horse. They preferentially attach themselves to the junction of the small and large intestine the ileocaecal junction. Here, they can cause bowel irritation, intussusception (where one part of the intestine telescopes into another), rupture, or twisting of the intestine.

It is thought that tapeworm may be responsible for up to 20% of surgical colics. Tapeworms are present, to a greater or lesser extent, in the majority of horses.

Parts of the country with acidic soils (for example, heath land), which favour the survival of the intermediate host of the tapeworm (the forage or oribatid mite), tend to have the highest level of infection.

Recent studies have shown that far from being a seasonal problem, tapeworm infection occurs all year round. This is because the forage mite not only lives on pasture, but also survives perfectly well in hay and on bedding, For this reason, six- monthly dosing (at double the standard dose for Pyrantel based products) is an essential port of any worming programme.

Appearance
Tapeworms in horses are generally much shorter than dog or cat worms, they are flat, triangular and relatively short being approximately 8 cm long by about 1.5 cm wide. However the equine tapeworm grow up to 20cm long, white in colour. Rarer species can be up to 80cm long. They live in huge numbers attached to the gut wall at a natural narrowing of the gut (the ileocaecal junction).

Symptoms:
Can cause colic, sometimes fatal, by blocking blood vessels. Current research estimates that over 20% of cases of spasmodic colic are related to tapeworm burden

With a healthy horse in excellent condition it is fine to go by the standard rotation of worming BUT this horse is not in excellent condition and its owner is concerned - it needs to be wormed to definately remove ALL the parasites lurking. While they are there the horse will not recover. 99% of illthrift is due to parasites.

The instructions I was given were given by Equine specialist vets and I really think they do know what they are talking about!

PANACUR is not a broad spectrum wormer - it only affects a minority of species! It does not kill Tapes or Bots!!!

TIGERTAIL - wormers are NOT antibiotics they do not kill the gut bacteria!
 
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Tnavas after having spent 2 months reading every article known to man on malabsorption, causes of malabsorption, worms worm damage, worming, worming in relation to malabsorption, ulcers, worming in relation to ulcers etc, and pts my mare 3 weeks ago, I really really don't want to go further on this... Chances are that it's malabsorption or possibly ulcers and nothing to do with work burden, and if it is worms then pancur should be used. Im not going to argue the point, but I sure as hell hope you never have a horse with malabsorption or ulcers that you decide to bomb drench, and I mean that with the utmost sincerity. Weight loss is not always down to worms
 
Tnavas said:
TIGERTAIL - wormers are NOT antibiotics they do not kill the gut bacteria!
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mmmhmmm I said like antibiotics, i didnt say they ARE antibiotics :rolleyes: funnily enough I deal with a lot of drugs in the cattle industry so have a fair idea what im talking about.

“Wormers” are a treatment! Like antibiotics are a treatment for bacterial infections, yet we recognise that just administering antibiotics in case there might be an infection is inappropriate, and we also know that over-use of antibiotics eventually leads to problems with resistance.
Wormers have exactly the same problems and yet most people continue to use them in a preventative fashion rather than in a targeted therapeutic manner.
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Taken from minster vets fact sheet http://www.minstervets.co.uk/uploads/Files/Worm Control In Horses document.pdf

Also going to take a guess and say youve done no research into the links between laminitis/footy flare ups and worming? All due to the effect on the gut, the ability to absorb food and the overdose of harsh chemicals in a very sensitive environment.
 
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Tiger Tail - after working with horses for over 40 years and in that time being responsible for the welfare of hundreds of horses I've not yet had one that has had a laminitis/footy flare up following worming. What does cause problems is the feeding of ALL processed feeds and insufficient work.

We are discussing a thin horse not putting on weight! Bombdrenching with an Ivomec and Praziquontal wormer once a week for three weeks in a row is a sensible treatment. From years of practical experience!

Queen Bee - so sorry to hear of the loss of your horse.

We will have to agree to disgree.

Panacure 5 day does not kill a broad enough range of parasites - so is an expensive waste of money.
 
Just something I've remembered - many years ago I had one horse that always looked light in conditiondespite being fed a bag of feed at every meal.

It turned out that he had a neck problem causing sufficient pain to cause him to stress off every grain of food.

After several chiropractic treatments he came right. Immediately he started to put on the weight and was never a problem after that.

Worth having a chiro look over your horse.
 
I'd keep it simple. Worm with Panacur Guard 5 day and make sure you dont uder dose. ALso Praziquantel for tapeworm. Feed ad lib hay not haylage and cooked oats and linseed gruel.
 
Tnavas has a point re the neck thing, slim chance but not improbable, although I'd expect to see reluctance when eating dinner. One of my vets came out with a student for Ben the other day and was very very vocal that she should never inject into the neck and if she is at college and sees someone doing so, she should give them hell even if it's a tutor. He said if you inject there and the horse developed an access it's a death sentence because they will be in so much pain they wont be able to eat or drink. He said if you see a horse suffering from such an abscess it will stay with you for the rest of your life :( interestingly I've Also remembered that on one of the articles I read on malabsorption (40 Pgs long!) it's basically talking about the fact that the gut is so delicate that any worm burden... No matter how small can have a huge effect on the horse, it reccomended creating an environment where worms just can't live in the first place, in america they have 'strongid t, which Is a very low dose daily wormer, a long term daily wormer is reccomended by the specialist and had things not deteriorated rapidly in the last week for ebony we were going to either apply for an import licence for it (takes a couple of days) or get Liverpool to calculate equivalent dosage for an existing wormer over here, you see it is a low enough dose to do no damage to gut but high enough to stop parasite burden from happening. I will hook up to computer op and find this document, some of it is scary reading but the treatment plan in there is basically regarded as the best chance for recovery in malabsorption cases.
 
Ok.... First of all, thank you again all for your help and advice! I've had a long chat with my Vet today to discuss the points raised in this thread and the other one in NL...

She thinks the pain option is ruled out by a course of Danilon he was on for a few weeks, which saw no change to his weight or demeanor.

We are doing Fecal testing for pH and/or blood to test for possible hind gut ulcers, although she thinks this is unlikely as he has no colicky symptoms or diarhoea, and worm count. Tapeworm was ruled out at blood testing last week. I guess I am hoping for a worm burden, though she says this is unlikely as well due to previous test results and severity of weight loss combined with lack of diarhoea/colic symptoms.

We are changing over from topspec conditioning cubes to high fibre cubes, plus cooked oats, keeping up with the balancer and alfa a, sugar beet and barley, soya oil and 'propell plus' for now, only making changes one step at a time!
 
montysmum1 said:
Ok.... First of all, thank you again all for your help and advice! I've had a long chat with my Vet today to discuss the points raised in this thread and the other one in NL...

She thinks the pain option is ruled out by a course of Danilon he was on for a few weeks, which saw no change to his weight or demeanor.

We are doing Fecal testing for pH and/or blood to test for possible hind gut ulcers, although she thinks this is unlikely as he has no colicky symptoms or diarhoea, and worm count. Tapeworm was ruled out at blood testing last week. I guess I am hoping for a worm burden, though she says this is unlikely as well due to previous test results and severity of weight loss combined with lack of diarhoea/colic symptoms.

We are changing over from topspec conditioning cubes to high fibre cubes, plus cooked oats, keeping up with the balancer and alfa a, sugar beet and barley, soya oil and 'propell plus' for now, only making changes one step at a time!
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I have just found this on another forum... dont know if its of interest:

I have a horse that had right dorsal colitis brought on by a sensitivity to bute. His diagnosis was by ultrasound. As I understand it, that is the only way to diagnosis it except post-mortem. Ultrasound can detect gut wall thickening which is indicative of areas of inflammation. Even then, you need a good ultrasound machine and a good person reading the results. Best to have it done at the biggest teaching hospital near you.

It's a theory that fermentation of high fructan hay that forms lactic acid might cause or at least exacerbate this problem.

Also, if I were you I would be soaking any hay or haylage you give to him for 12 hrs for a couple of weeks to see if this helps the situation
 
The horse with the neck problem ate well from a raised feeder but would take forever to eat from the ground up to an hour - except for a few days after the chiro had been. I also noticed that he didn't graze as much as the others.

Painkillers did nothing to change hos behaviouir at all. He was grumpy to work with.

The two photos below were taken only a few weeks apart - following manipulation under general anaesthetic

2fcc76b9.jpg
TnavasatDressageChamps.jpg
 
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Queenbee, that link was great, really interesting reading, thank you.

With regards to soaking they hay/haylage for 12 hours, won't this leach out any goodness which he desperately needs?

What is your opinion on feeding him a grass replacement (like ready grass, or bucket loads of alfa a, or even grass nuts) instead, as I am having trouble persuading him to eat much haylage anyway now and I don't want to waste any days if possible...? He's still wolfing down his hard feeds and always eating grass in the field.

Tnavas, he did have a physio out to see him about 12weeks ago and they didn't mention anything then, and he always eats from the floor without seeming at all put off. Thank you for the suggestion though. Your boy looks lovely, I'm glad he's doing so well
 
in horse and hound 17th may page 12 there is a letter;
unoticed killer op you need to read this!
could he have swallowed something inedible?
 
montysmum1 said:
Queenbee, that link was great, really interesting reading, thank you.

With regards to soaking they hay/haylage for 12 hours, won't this leach out any goodness which he desperately needs?

What is your opinion on feeding him a grass replacement (like ready grass, or bucket loads of alfa a, or even grass nuts) instead, as I am having trouble persuading him to eat much haylage anyway now and I don't want to waste any days if possible...? He's still wolfing down his hard feeds and always eating grass in the field.

Tnavas, he did have a physio out to see him about 12weeks ago and they didn't mention anything then, and he always eats from the floor without seeming at all put off. Thank you for the suggestion though. Your boy looks lovely, I'm glad he's doing so well
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I believe (I think someone may have even posted it on here) that 50% of the calories on here are derived by the fermentation process inside the hid gut. What you need to do is get rid of all the potential fructates, haylage carries bacteria too, not what you want in the gut when for whatever reason it is unstable. I would be feeding as forage that is as empty from sugar and bacteria as possible, basic fibre to keep the gut moving (along with a probiotic as discussed) Fast Fibre is excellent, and if you ring allen and page they will send their area rep out for a yard visit and they will give you a free bag of feed... although I suspect in this case they would reccomend their veteran mix, which I would in your case feed in a big tub trug soaked like a soup overnight, Id also be looking at badminton ultra grass (it has added oil) again, if you ring badminton they can send you samples and they will probably send you a £5 gift voucher which you can put towards purchasing a bag to trial. Grass is by far the best form of calories when it comes to forage, so Id say yes to ultra grass (or similar) and Id be looking at A&P veteran instead of FF (ideally) but the actual make up of Hay and Haylage... the type of sugars in there can antagonise the gut, so soak and provide the calories from another source... eg oats (which you are doing) Ring mollichaff too, they have an excellent nutritionalist (internationally acclaimed), she works for many of the top companies freelance, they will give you her name and number, Id run through your horses problems and possible diagnosis, she will be able to advise you on possible current additions or tweaks to your regime and hopefully, if you horse comes through this on a maintainence diet, to keep him as well as possible.

I would investigate the possibilites of an ultrasound and also a peritoneal tap, the tap can give a really good indication as to the cause of the problem, but personally I would go for the US first. I suppose it really depends at the end of the day on how far you want to persue this and your financial situation, these are harsh but very relevent questions that you need to ask yourself, if money is not an issue, then with your horse surviving after 5 months and having made some progress from where he was when you acquired him, I would be hopeful that whilst not an easy or cheap journey, you may find a positive resolution with the right tests, diagnosis and maintainance plan
 
montysmum1 said:
Queenbee, that link was great, really interesting reading, thank you.

With regards to soaking they hay/haylage for 12 hours, won't this leach out any goodness which he desperately needs?

What is your opinion on feeding him a grass replacement (like ready grass, or bucket loads of alfa a, or even grass nuts) instead, as I am having trouble persuading him to eat much haylage anyway now and I don't want to waste any days if possible...? He's still wolfing down his hard feeds and always eating grass in the field.

Tnavas, he did have a physio out to see him about 12weeks ago and they didn't mention anything then, and he always eats from the floor without seeming at all put off. Thank you for the suggestion though. Your boy looks lovely, I'm glad he's doing so well
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Is he on a blood tonic? If not please please please.... order a bottle of haemovite B +

If you have to stick 5 large tubtrugs in there with various fibre based foods at night, do it. if he will take soaked feed... go for this, it is easier to digest than a normal mix... often lack of appetite is a by product of a depressed immune system, give it a boost and you buy yourself some time at least. I would now be asking your vet to ring the specialists for second opinions at somewhere like liverpool vets, I am also happy for your vet to ring mine to discuss the case and any similarities or ideas if that would help.
 
He's on 'propell plus' which is an iron rich blood tonic, and has been for about 5weeks now. I've spoken 2 Allen and Page this morning, and they recommend Fast Fibre as a haylage replacement, which I can pick up locally tonight after work, and they are going to do soke research for me and call me back tomo as they said they hadnt had many queries as severe as my boy :(
Finances are going to become an issue, unfortunately they are not unlimited, so I do have to weigh up what is the most beneficial so I dont waste money on things which wont help him, instead of spending it on things which will.
I will ring my vet after work to discuss an ultrasound again. This may sound awful, but it feels as though she's given up on him and expects him to be pts anyway so isn't that interested
 
OP, have you considered kidney failure?
Just wondering as my horse has just been diagnosed after investigating due to severe weight loss. Blood test confirmed kidney failure, maybe worth asking your vet? Sorry to hear about your horse I know how you must be feeling :(
 
Not sure if this will be any help but its worth a shot:) I have a 17hh boy who was not putting weight on either, only difference is he had the squits! Vet involved, initial thoughts were colitis/hind gut ulcers. Bloods taken which like yours came back completely clear, Vet now think hind gut ulcers/IBS, didn’t really give me any advice as to what to do. Did a lot of research. I initially put him on Protexin Quick Fix to give his guts a kick start, Pink powder, yea sacc etc made no difference what so ever. Then changed to their gut balancer and I also have him on Happy Tummy Charcoal. This seems to have done the trick he put on 200kg in about 3 months, being fed good quality hay, Alfalfa A unmolassed, full fat soya (not oil) and linseed lozenges. I don’t want to tread on any toes here but you can over worm a horse, but equally if the incorrect amount of wormer has been given there could be a chance of resistance. I would be using the Panacur 5 day course as it us not so harsh, but I would definitely be feeding the Quick Fix along side. Another thought is stress?? Just ideas:):)
 
What sort of yard is he on? Is it a busy large one or small quiet one? Might it be worth trying one of the opposite that he is on to see if a different environment works?

Is he on full livery, or DIY? If its full, are you sure that YO is feeding him three times a day?

My horse has been very thin, and a combination of a move in yards to a much quieter one, with more staff and grass, and different feed have really realled helped her. She's also believed to have a really rubbish digestive system too, which hasn't helped.

Have you considered an iridologist?
 
wench said:
What sort of yard is he on? Is it a busy large one or small quiet one? Might it be worth trying one of the opposite that he is on to see if a different environment works?

Is he on full livery, or DIY? If its full, are you sure that YO is feeding him three times a day?

My horse has been very thin, and a combination of a move in yards to a much quieter one, with more staff and grass, and different feed have really realled helped her. She's also believed to have a really rubbish digestive system too, which hasn't helped.

Have you considered an iridologist?
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Spooky I was just about to suggest the same!! Have thought about food intolerance??
 
My horse was exactly the same when I moved yards. Had blood and poo work ups, fed ad lib forage and Alfa oil with fibre beet by the bucket load, he just wouldn't put on weight. Moved yards again back to horses he'd lived with for 2 years previously and he was fine. It could just take time for him to settle
 
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