Weight Loss -unexplained so far

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aniford

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Hi
Im desperate for ideas and help. 21 yr old mare lost weight in winter and Ive been trying to get weight back on since January. All types of feed combinations tried, including high fibre, veteran mixes, sumo muscle builder, supplements -red cell, collovet, calmer, thyroid herbs, liver herbs all tried and failed. Not all at once, feed rations have been tried in different combinations since January.
Holly is still losing weight.
Full blood profile has been completed and tests are inconclusive, everything is around low-med (apparently normal for older horse). Bile salts were a little low and calcium slightly elevated.
Holly does not have worms unless its a drug resistant strain that cant be seen on blood tests or faecal counts. Always been wormed regularly with good quality drugs.
Gastric ulcers are a possibility but symptoms do not fit as digestive system is working well, no colic or discomfort and mare has huge appetite.
Please let me know if you have any ideas, Im desperate now, I dont want my mare going into winter so underweight. I cant bear to watch her become so poor. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Also usual dental check recently, teeth are in excellent condition for age.
Thanks
Ani
 
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Good old fashioned quality grass. Seed hay or seed haylage, rather than meadow varieties. Dengie Alfa-A Oil and if she doesn't much like it, add some good quality crushed oats, which are fattening and really tasty to horses, high in natural oil and very high in natural fibre. Also add Top Spec balancer, the competition one, or another balancer of your choice. Maybe Blue Chip, although I think it is a bit OTT, it does work well to add condition to poor doers.
 
BigRed said:
Good old fashioned quality grass. Seed hay or seed haylage, rather than meadow varieties. Dengie Alfa-A Oil and if she doesn't much like it, add some good quality crushed oats, which are fattening and really tasty to horses, high in natural oil and very high in natural fibre. Also add Top Spec balancer, the competition one, or another balancer of your choice. Maybe Blue Chip, although I think it is a bit OTT, it does work well to add condition to poor doers.
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Hi Thanks for the above,
everything you suggest has been tried except Blue Chip. I really think its a problem with her metabolism rather than something that is correctable with different feed stuffs. I was expecting the blood tests to come back with the likelyhood of her having cancer or that her liver wasnt functioning properly. Apparently thyroid tests are somewhat pointless, according to my vet????
A very worried Ani....xx
 
Unfortunately one thing the vet cannot account for, is age. At 21, she is an "older" horse, and just like humans, some horses age better than others. I hope you get an answer, or a resolution. It may just be, that as an older horse she is going to take longer to catch up the lost weight, than a younger horse might.
 
BigRed said:
Unfortunately one thing the vet cannot account for, is age. At 21, she is an "older" horse, and just like humans, some horses age better than others. I hope you get an answer, or a resolution. It may just be, that as an older horse she is going to take longer to catch up the lost weight, than a younger horse might.
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Yeah Ive thought of that too, in which case the continued weight loss will make her so weak that she is going to be extremely ill by the end of November. If I cant reverse the weight loss by the end of October, the mare Ive owned since she was 3yrs old should be put to sleep to spare her the stress and misery of not being able to get up and down. My heart is breaking but it will be worse if she becomes ill, stressed and miserable.
Thank you for trying to help, it is appreciated.
Ani xx
 
Booboos said:
Pink Powder works well for F who has difficulty putting on weight with no underlying cause. Might be worth a try?
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Hi
Thanks, several different pre-biotic and pro-biotics have been tried. The worst part of this whole scenario is the fact that I dont have any answers about the cause of the weight loss. She did put some weight back on, plateaued, and lost again. In the last month weeks she has lost around 50kg.
Ani xx
 
If her appetite is good, she is either leaking nutrients before they can do her any good, or you are feeding something else. I'm afraid I would be thinking of tumours. Has she been tested for liver fluke? I'm sorry, it must be awful for you and seeing all your efforts not bringing any reward.
 
fatpiggy said:
If her appetite is good, she is either leaking nutrients before they can do her any good, or you are feeding something else. I'm afraid I would be thinking of tumours. Has she been tested for liver fluke? I'm sorry, it must be awful for you and seeing all your efforts not bringing any reward.
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Hi
the vet has ruled out tumours because her white cell count is within normal ranges (full blood profile done). However she is (white) grey and has many obvious melanomas, as melanomas are non-malignant these would not affect her white cell profile.
Liver fluke?? Wouldn't liver function tests show something? I think liver fluke is unlikely but am willing to consider any possibilities. Do you know how Liver fluke is tested for? I asked my vet to get ELISA tests completed before I wormed her with a full spectrum (encysted red/tape) wormer but someone mucked up and they weren't completed.
The only diagnosis I can find that fits her symptoms is hyperthyroidism but my vet is being vague and non-committal about the possibility of a thyroid problem, I understand why.
Thank you for your kind words, yes it is awful, frustrating and heartbreaking. I do not want to leave her to keep losing weight to go down on a winters morning to find she has had colic, panicked and stressed. I want to spare her a miserable, slow demise but it is so hard to give up on her without having a definite answer.
Ani xx
 
I am sure you are not riding her? Just asking in case. Also, could there be any other reason for herweight loss? Is she using up her energy in some other way? Is she rugged? It gets quite cold now at night and is often wet. Is there something worrying her in the night? Some kind of animal noise or animal visitor that is making her fret? Does she have company and shelter? Has there been a change in her life that coincided with the weight loss? Just firing ideas. She is either ill or is using up more calories than she is consuming. Worry and fretting can do this, as can being cold.

In terms of the best way to put weight on. I say haylage, haylage, and more haylage. Good luck!
 
aniford said:
Two-three, feeds are not over-sized. Also hay and haylage has continued to be fed, as the grazing this year is so poor.
Ani
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You need to be feeding 4 small meals a day to make a difference. And rug according to the weather.

If she doesn't improve after introducing a regular feeding regime, and you are sure that are feeding the correct amounts and there are no underlying medical reasons - then this will just be down to old age, and you'll have to make a decision before winter as to how you want to proceed.
 
Wagtail said:
I am sure you are not riding her? Just asking in case. Also, could there be any other reason for herweight loss? Is she using up her energy in some other way? Is she rugged? It gets quite cold now at night and is often wet. Is there something worrying her in the night? Some kind of animal noise or animal visitor that is making her fret? Does she have company and shelter? Has there been a change in her life that coincided with the weight loss? Just firing ideas. She is either ill or is using up more calories than she is consuming. Worry and fretting can do this, as can being cold.

In terms of the best way to put weight on. I say haylage, haylage, and more haylage. Good luck!
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No she isnt being ridden now, I brought her back into gentle hacking work after she put a good deal of weight on but then after she plateaued and lost weight again her saddle isnt fitting so she isnt being worked.
She was stressing and running up and down the field with the mare she has for company so I started giving her a calmer, which seems to have worked.
She has been rugged up pretty much for the whole year, especially if it is raining and I check the night time temperatures daily. Yes she has company and shelter. I live almost right next to her field so I can see her most of the time.
Yes she is ill, there has to be something causing the weight loss or maybe it is just her age. Something in her body is not working properly, its a case of finding out what and whether it can be corrected.
Thank you for firing ideas, they are all things Ive already kind of dealt with though, Im hoping someone may come up with something Ive not thought about!
Ani xx
 
i assume that as you've had a lot of vet input that you have had her teeth checked?

sorry if you said already, and ive missed it. ;)

watch also that you are not over rugging, as she will loose condition that way as much as if she was too cold.

cant think of anything else other than the above, and old age. i hope you find the answers you need, and she makes steady improvement for you. ;)
 
Ok, so far the replies that make sense are to treat for Liver fluke. Ive just read some stuff and it seems possible, as liver fluke infections are often chronic. It is 10yrs since she was kept on grazing where sheep were also kept but if this has been a low grade, chronic infection it may explain why she has lost weight gradually. Thank you for the suggestion, I will ask the vet about this possibility.

Also, yes ok, I can try feeding more often though if she does have an underlying chronic condition Im not sure that the frequency of feeding will make a significant difference.

At least I have two possible remedies, which makes me feel better, sorry I forgot to include the 'quotes', Thank You though!
I will keep checking for further suggestions!
Ani xx
 
be positive said:
I assume she has been tested for cushings.
How is she drinking.
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No she hasnt been tested for Cushings. There are no typical Cushings symptoms?
As far as I can tell her fluid intake is normal, it is hard to judge as when she is turned out she rarely drinks from her stable water bucket.
Urine is normal so I assume her water intake is OK.
Thanks
Ani
 
whisp&willow said:
i assume that as you've had a lot of vet input that you have had her teeth checked?

sorry if you said already, and ive missed it. ;)

watch also that you are not over rugging, as she will loose condition that way as much as if she was too cold.

cant think of anything else other than the above, and old age. i hope you find the answers you need, and she makes steady improvement for you. ;)
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Hi
yeah thanks, dental check was completed a few weeks ago. Her teeth are checked by the vet regularly.
I try not to over-rug, difficult when she is a mare that doesnt tolerate being cold and/or wet.
Than you.
Ani
 
The one thing that put weight on a poor horse that medically had nothing wrong was yearling or very good stud cubes,it seemed to be the higher protein that helped.
We had also tried balancers etc. first and this was last resort,it worked fairly quickly as far as I can remember.
 
Also, yes ok, I can try feeding more often though if she does have an underlying chronic condition Im not sure that the frequency of feeding will make a significant difference.
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And if there's no underlying condition it will make a huge difference (again unless the factor is simply old age).
 
be positive said:
The one thing that put weight on a poor horse that medically had nothing wrong was yearling or very good stud cubes,it seemed to be the higher protein that helped.
We had also tried balancers etc. first and this was last resort,it worked fairly quickly as far as I can remember.
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OK thanks. I thought about trying stud cubes before I bought the sumo muscle builder, shes been on the sumo about 10 weeks and its not made a difference.
Ani
 
Im sure you have done this but I know someone who really struggles with weight loss who hadn't and it made a HUGE differance to her horse.

But have you actually weighed out the recomended amount of feed rather than fed by volume? Some times it is much more than you think

Also have you thought of using a nutrtionalist?

Feed company help lines are useful.

I know someone who used an independed nitritionalist who was excellant.
 
Ok you're going to think I'm a wacko for this suggestion but I have seen it on many occasions with TB's.

you say she put on weight and then lost it after you started riding. Your saddle has caused this. It's not weight loss but muscle spasm and tightness. Your saddle has pinched either side of her spine and at first the problem was localised but the more you put that saddle on, the more the muscle tightness has spread. You get to the point where all along the top line of the neck, back, quarters and down the hind legs is very contracted. The horse looks thin... you shovel all sorts of food in, muscle builders, top line feeds. Well shovel in as much as you like as it won't change a thing unless you get a seriously good physio in.

The worst case of this I saw lost all it's top muscle and fat and started to look like a rescue case. This was caused by a wintec pro dressage with CAIR where the CAIR had got a bit flat and was pinching. They shovelled in tons of feed with no difference. It only came to light when I asked to try their saddle on my mare. I got off after 3 mins as horsey didn't feel right and found her back and quarters in spasm. I knew it was the saddle as it was the only thing that changed. I had to wait 2 weeks for the horse physio and in that time it seemed like the top of my horse disappeared. Luckily it only took 2 visits to sort out for her.

Try it, get a really good phyio out for your horse and hopefully you'll see a difference in a few days. Keeping the rugs on helps keep the muscles warm so your horse will look better on those days and calmers also help muscle relaxation. What have you got to lose? please give it a go.

Hope it helps.
 
Who told you that melanomas weren't malignant? Copied from reputable website:

Types of melanoma:

Melanomas are caused by a disturbance in melanin metabolism, but it is difficult to predict how a particular nodule is going to progress over time.

The vast majority of melanomas remain benign throughout the life of the horse and grow slowly over a number of years. They rarely spread, although the lump itself may increase in size and become a problem in some areas.

The less common sequence of events is that the slow-growing melanoma suddenly becomes malignant and spreads via the blood or lymph to other sites within the body such as the liver, spleen and lungs.

Very rarely, melanomas can be malignant as soon as they form and in these unfortunate cases, the condition progresses rapidly.

If it was me, I'd suspect anything until it was definitively ruled out. In the meantime, have you tried Yea Sac as it aids hind gut digestion and acts as a very very mild appetite stimulant. Commonly used when there has been liver damage but in your mare's case, it can do her no harm to try it.
 
mini-eventer said:
Im sure you have done this but I know someone who really struggles with weight loss who hadn't and it made a HUGE differance to her horse.

But have you actually weighed out the recomended amount of feed rather than fed by volume? Some times it is much more than you think

Also have you thought of using a nutrtionalist?

Feed company help lines are useful.

I know someone who used an independed nitritionalist who was excellant.
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Hi
Thanks, yes Ive spoken to several feed company help lines and feeds are weighed. Some of the information has been conflicting, so not terribly helpful.
Cheers Ani xx
 
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