Weight of hay needed for weightloss - can someone remind me?

Casey76

Casey76

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Hiya, can someone remind me if the weight of hay needed for weightloss is 1% of the target weight, or 1% of the current weight?

My mare is now on emergency measures due to hard crest and neck fat pads for the first time ever :(
 
Use a bit of common sense ..... 1% is 5Kg dry matter for a 500 kg [may be 16.00hh] ..... most shetland ponies would think that was a just enuff, lol....
Hay would be 85 -88 % DM, haylage 80 to 85%.
I just would feed at 2% of forage to bodyweight to be honest, its always risking colics unless you can trickle feed every 2-3 hours 24/7, and there will be some wastage twixt "cup and lip".
A lot of folks try a giant trug of plain chopped straw, damp, I assume.
Make sure horse gets plenty of brisk track walking.
I don't believe in starvation box rest unless vet is adamant there is no other way.
Weightape weekly, taking a 2 week average for loss.
The weight loss should be more accurate than the bodyweight reading as shown on the tape.
Allow 10-12 weeks to get back correct weight.
 
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You can soak both hay and haylage for an hour with no risk of fermentation even in summer, but you should add minerals and salt if on a very strict [stabled] diet.
I recommend weighing the forage then soak 1-2 hours and rinse, then feed, this will reduce the DM you are actually feeding, due to loss of the sugar, and dust.
 
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I've had a review of Bailey's feeding following three vet visits last Sunday and Monday to my horse who was colicking with splenic entrapment. I asked if he thought I was overfeeding him as I was giving him 22lbs of hay a day and he said 1.5% of the body weight for weight loss and 2% for maintenance and this includes ALL forage (hard feed and grass and hay).

So I've cut him down to two 5lb nets overnight and two 4lb nets in the day - he's currently out for 2 hours a day of fairly good grass in a small paddock which he shares with another but its hard to quantify grass. He has two very small hard feeds in the day.
 
Rather than reducing volume (and runninng the risk of them running out) I feed fatties lower sugar forage.

For a little loss, first cut rather than second cut hay (we also cut our first cut first thing in the morning so it is really low sugar, 2nd cut we cut in the evening to maximise the sugar for the winter months).

If more loss is needed I would soak, and if a lot of loss is needed I would feed a mix of hay and straw.

I'd always feed enough so they have some left in the morning and cut out all hard feed except the minimum to give any balancer/medication
 
EQUIDAE said:
If more loss is needed I would soak, and if a lot of loss is needed I would feed a mix of hay and straw.
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Straw has a very high percentage of indigestible fibre so is more likely to cause an impaction, especially in winter when horses don't drink enough water. Impaction colic is more of a risk for horses on a diet of straw or any other type of tough, stemmy type forage. If you chop the straw into short pieces before feeding it can help to eliminate this problem but personally I wouldn't risk it. It is for that reason that I don't bed my horse on it (even though its always been included in the price of the livery package). I asked the vet a couple of weeks ago whether he considered it an impaction risk (Bailey loves eating straw - I only give him a handful very occasionally in his haynet) and he said he thought it was as he would eat his bed.

Depending on how and when it was cut, some straw which contains many of the grain seed heads can be as high in carbohydrates as good-quality grass hay. The indigestible fibre (which gives straw its shiny appearance) is not calorific but the actual body of the stalk may contain high amounts of digestible starch and carbohydrates.
 
Thanks everyone for your comments.

I can't do anything about the hay, it is all home grown, but the parcels of land are spread over a wide area, and each bale is usually completely different to the next. So one day I might have fine meadow-type hay, in three-four days it may be tough and straw-like. In a good year, we would have three cuts (May, Jul and Sep), but it depends on how it is put into the barn, and how it is brought out - and that is something I have no control over.

For the time being, Tartine is getting 3kg of rinsed hay on a morning and 3kg on a night, and is out during the day with a muzzle on - where she will be getting less to eat than in a hard-standing pen with ad lib hay.

I've asked that Tartines food (which was only a balancer anyway) be stopped, and only to give a handful of chaff (unmollassed) to be given instead, so that I can give her a separate supplement in a handful of soaked grass nuts on an evening.

I wrote an email to my YO, explaining why I wanted the change in food (it's easier for me to write in French, than to explain verbally, and I never know when/if I'm going to see the YO), and that I'm concerned , and could he please explain to the part time staff.

So far I've been called "nasty" and "horrible" for putting a muzzle on Tartine; I've also been told that I'm over reacting and that Tartine already has nothing to eat in her field. Well sorry, but I'm not going to ignore bright flashing warning signs like a hard crest. It makes me feel like never going on holiday again...
 
applecart14 said:
Straw has a very high percentage of indigestible fibre so is more likely to cause an impaction.
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A common myth that comes from horse getting impaction after being out in the winter on bare paddocks, given too little hay overnight and them gorging on their beds - yes this will cause impaction. If they have enough forage that they are never without then they won't gorge. Horses can digest straw - they can digest fibre and metabolise the resulting formaldehyde, unlike the human gut.

I've always fed my fatties on straw with no issues. I've never fed straw over winter as they tend to need more calories anyway.
 
EQUIDAE said:
Horses can digest straw - they can digest fibre and metabolise the resulting formaldehyde, unlike the human gut.
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To clarify, horses can digest most types of fibre (unlike humans), but they struggle to digest lignin. Most straws are high in lignin, so horses can digest far less of the fibre in straw than they can in less-lignified fibre feeds such as hay. Hence straw fills them up, but doesn't give a lot of calories.
 
FrankieCob said:
I'd be more worried about reducing the hay of a colickly horse than I would ever be about straw
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Mild displacements often respond to withdrawal of feed. This allows the colon to empty and return to its normal position. Bailey couldn't have the injection which is usual in cases like this as it could have caused him to have a fatal arrhythmia as he has 2nd degree heart block.

I have reduced his hay intake since the colic (in conjunction with vets advice).
 
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my 16hh cob/id/tb was put on a diet by the vets after weighing in at 670 kilos.... he lost 120 kilos over a year by a strict diet of 10lb hay at night, which had to be soaked for for at least 12 hours.... he also had to have a grazing muzzle on when he moved onto a new field.... he's a very lazy chap so exercise had to be lots of trot / canter transitions and he could walk for hours without using up a single calorie... good luck! it's tough but my boy is much better for it now....
 
TGM said:
To clarify, horses can digest most types of fibre (unlike humans), but they struggle to digest lignin. Most straws are high in lignin, so horses can digest far less of the fibre in straw than they can in less-lignified fibre feeds such as hay. Hence straw fills them up, but doesn't give a lot of calories.
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Lingin is the outer coating of the straw which gives it its shiny appearance, therefore all straw contains it.
 
applecart14 said:
Lingin is the outer coating of the straw which gives it its shiny appearance, therefore all straw contains it.
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Sorry, this statement is quite wrong. Pretty much all vascular plants have lignin in them, and yes, it does play an important part in cell wall function. Lignin provides the cell walls with strength, but it's found on the inside, and not the outside, and it also helps with water conduction.
 
FrankieCob said:
And that was my point.

I'd rather mine had straw and constant food through his gut than not. Each to their own.
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And if I were to give him constant food through his gut (which is obviously the best thing) he would be the size of a house.

And that is my point. FM I can't win on this forum. If I cut back his hay to keep him slimmer I get slated. If I let him stuff his face I get slated.
 
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All I know is that straw takes a lot more digesting than hay. My mare is on straw for various reasons, and always has a much bigger "hay belly" than when on shavings or pellets - assuming that the fermentation process to digest straw produces more gas.

So, despite her being on limited hay, she does have her bed to nibble on - though she is much better about that than she was when I first bought her ;)
 
HeresHoping said:
Sorry, I am not trying to cause an argument - I perhaps should have phrased things better. I think the article makes a bit of a sweeping statement. Cell walls comprise cellulose and silica, too. Lignin content will vary across straw types, making some more digestible than others.
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Ok I understand. The last thing I want is an argument too, believe me!

I personally still wouldn't bed my horse on it let alone feed it in a net, but that's just my personal opinion based on my horses problems. Its a shame as it would save me £900 a year as shaving are so expensive @ 2 bales per week! :(

I feel I am right that I need to cut him down on his hay as he does leave quite a lot the next day, now his bed is bare of hay and I've not cut down that much so need to find a happy medium. If I can keep his weight down it will help is arthritis and joints too. He has been more energetic since his hay has been reduced even though its only been over a week so hopefully I will have a fitter and healthier horse by the end of it. :)
 
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QuantockHills said:
and he could walk for hours without using up a single calorie... good luck!
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ha ha, just like my horse. We have loads of hills by us and as I hack such a lot I would expect him to be much fitter than he is and much slimmer! Looking fat is very deceptive though, I don't feel he is fat as you can not only feel but see his ribs it really is grass and hay belly and the starving of hay for 32 hours when he had colic just proved the point that looks can be deceptive. Maybe I should starve myself for 32 hours! :)
 
applecart14 said:
And if I were to give him constant food through his gut (which is obviously the best thing) he would be the size of a house.

And that is my point. FM I can't win on this forum. If I cut back his hay to keep him slimmer I get slated. If I let him stuff his face I get slated.
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You seem to want to take offence in anything thats said to you. Where has anyone slated you for feeding ad lib hay?! But just for the record, the two options you mention in your post arent they only ones, the others are just more work and more money and therefore you will have untold reasons why you cant do those either. My horse is losing weight with constant food. My small, fat, incredibly good doer cob. There are ways of feeding good doers adlib and not have them gain weight.
 
Casey76 said:
Thanks everyone for your comments.

I can't do anything about the hay, it is all home grown, but the parcels of land are spread over a wide area, and each bale is usually completely different to the next. So one day I might have fine meadow-type hay, in three-four days it may be tough and straw-like. In a good year, we would have three cuts (May, Jul and Sep), but it depends on how it is put into the barn, and how it is brought out - and that is something I have no control over.

For the time being, Tartine is getting 3kg of rinsed hay on a morning and 3kg on a night, and is out during the day with a muzzle on - where she will be getting less to eat than in a hard-standing pen with ad lib hay.

I've asked that Tartines food (which was only a balancer anyway) be stopped, and only to give a handful of chaff (unmollassed) to be given instead, so that I can give her a separate supplement in a handful of soaked grass nuts on an evening.

I wrote an email to my YO, explaining why I wanted the change in food (it's easier for me to write in French, than to explain verbally, and I never know when/if I'm going to see the YO), and that I'm concerned , and could he please explain to the part time staff.

So far I've been called "nasty" and "horrible" for putting a muzzle on Tartine; I've also been told that I'm over reacting and that Tartine already has nothing to eat in her field. Well sorry, but I'm not going to ignore bright flashing warning signs like a hard crest. It makes me feel like never going on holiday again...
Click to expand...

You're doing the right things. Don't feel horrible... it's not forever!. Don't forget to up the exercise and provide herbs or a bit of linseed to help the digestive system cope with high acidity during periods of the "diet".

Letting Tartine get laminitis is far more cruel in my books.
 
EQUIDAE said:
Rather than reducing volume (and runninng the risk of them running out) I feed fatties lower sugar forage.

For a little loss, first cut rather than second cut hay (we also cut our first cut first thing in the morning so it is really low sugar, 2nd cut we cut in the evening to maximise the sugar for the winter months).

If more loss is needed I would soak, and if a lot of loss is needed I would feed a mix of hay and straw.

I'd always feed enough so they have some left in the morning and cut out all hard feed except the minimum to give any balancer/medication
Click to expand...

From my understanding, hay cut before June 22nd will be higher in feeding value ie more sugars and starches than later cut hay which has less digestible dry matter. The thinking was that cattle would benefit from a less stalky hay, but for many HORSES, stalky is just what we want.
The racehorse is often fed a ryegrass haylage, but a lot less than a leisure horse, and if this haylage was given to a leisure horse ad lib it would be soaked to remove sugars and increase the proportion of fibre in the forage.
I hope that helps....
 
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Bonkers2 said:
From my understanding, hay cut before June 22nd will be higher in feeding value ie more sugars and starches than later cut hay which has less digestible dry matter. The thinking was that cattle would benefit from a less stalky hay, but for HORSES, stalky is just what we want.
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This isn't what the nutritional analysis of my hay has shown. The first cut, which has gone to flower is always lower in sugar.
 
EQUIDAE said:
This isn't what the nutritional analysis of my hay has shown. The first cut, which has gone to flower is always lower in sugar.
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I was talking about the effect of date of cutting on single cut hay, any second cut forage will grow differently because the plant will only go to flower and seed once per season.
When we humans suck on a bit of sweet grass, we select a juicy bit near the active growing part, not the dry [upper] fibrous part.
The % of sugar in Dry Matter analysis will reduce in proportion as the stalkiness [ %age of fibre] increases.
 
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Bonkers2 said:
I was talking about the effect of date of cutting on single cut hay, any second cut forage will grow differently because the plant will only go to flower and seed once per season.
When we humans suck on a bit of sweet grass, we select a juicy bit near the active growing part, not the dry [upper] fibrous part.
The % of sugar in Dry Matter analysis will reduce in proportion as the stalkiness [ %age of fibre] increases.
Click to expand...

But I wasn't and you quoted me - I was talking first cut and second cut hay. I'm well aware of how it works - I grow my own hay specifically for sugar contents (except last year when the weather was pants and I ended up with standing foggage)
 
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