Weight problems, getting desperate

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montysmum1

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Thank you for reading this, I am feeling rather desperate!

I’ve not had my horse for very long (5 months), and in this time we have had a few legs problems, but they are coming on nicely, and I thought we were making good progress, until my vet commented that she thought he should have put on more weight by now, and was generally looking rather dull (he was extremely underweight when I bought him).

On her advice, and that of a nutritionist, I changed his feed (gradually, over the course of a week) onto a much more calorie intense, high soya diet, with additional Soya oil and feed balancer. He also has ad lib good quality haylage when stabled and is turned out over night on very good grass for an average of 14hrs. But he is still precariously balanced between thin and thinner…

He has had his teeth rasped a few months ago, and is regularly wormed. He has had a full blood test, with the results showing EVERYTHING well within the normal ranges, so we ran a glucose absorption test to see if perhaps he has a problem with absorbing the nutrients, but this has come back perfectly normal too.

Vet thinks now something much more sinister is going on internally, and without expensive scans, which the insurance won’t support as it is ‘pre-existing’, and vet thinks will result in same outcome, we should pts!! :(

Does anyone have any helpful suggestions or ideas? Please
 
Is he just not putting weight on, rather than losing more? And is he actually eating a decent quantity of the food & happy in himself?
Other thing is while he may have been wormed he could still have them. For the cost of getting a worm count you could rule that out at least. And how old is he?
 
That is a worry, my first thought would be internal parasites of some sort if the blood isn't showing any major organ malfunction.

I have in the past given a horse the sort of diet you are indicating and it just didn't work, he couldn't absorb it and it just shot through him and in fact got thinner.

I switched to a high fibre diet with extra meals (thinking he would fade away and die without all the extras :o) but he didn't he got back to his optimum weight. The only 'extra' I added was Thunderbrook supplement and then Ready Mash in the winter.

It is hellish hard to get weight back on sometimes, do you use a weigh tape every month?
 
As in Vets:

I would try the insurance route, as no one can say definitively that the weight loss is through a pre-existing condition.

But, just to run through things with you:

How many feeds a day are you giving?

Try out in the day, and in at night.

Are you rugging against the poorer weather?

What age is the horse?
 
He's 7. He has a very good appetite and eats everything he is given. His weight fluctuates, he puts on a little, then loses it again for no apparent reason, we don't get past thin. I've not done a worm count, that is a really good suggestion, thank you. I wormed him with Equest and Equimax when first arrived (under vets advice), and he has been regularly wormed since so vet says this is very unlikely, but certainly worth a try for the sake of a few pounds.
 
Amymay - hadn't seen your post before my reply!

He has 3 feeds a day, and is well rugged (but not over-rugged) against any adverse weather. Unfortunately daytime turnout is not an option at my yard, unless he goes out on his own, which would stress him as he enjoys the comapny of his herd mates. And he is 7.
 
Is he an ex racer? Sometimes horses show hardly any symptons of ulcers... If the worm count etc.. Comes back clear I would be inclined to get him scoped, just to be on the safe side..
 
When you say he gets as much haylage as he wants, how much is left when you turn him out?

How much work is he getting?
 
Is he happy & lively in himself? Pain can be a major cause of weightloss. Maybe speak to the vet & see if he could have a course of danilon, if it makes a difference to his weight then at least you know its pain, even if not what it is. Plus how happy he is in himself would play a big part in how long I'd keep trying for.
 
We have treated him for ulcers, as I made the same assumption, and it made no difference, which i guess is why the vet thinks this is unlikely, but thank you for the suggestion.

He has also had a month long course of Danilon, which made no difference either.

There is usually haylage left over when he goes back out, so he is never left with none. (what is left is removed and replaced with fresh the following morning)

He is currently not in any work, and hasn't been for about 6 weeks now. Initially because of a lameness issue, but this is now rectified, I am delaying brining him back into work because I am reluctant to make him burn any more calories!!

He seems happy, but not 'perky'. He has his ears forwards 99% of the time, and is always pleased to see me/food/field/friends, just no 'spark'. Especially considering how much he is eating!!
 
How long have you had him and been trying to put on the weight ?

When I got my first boy in Nov 2010 he was very underweight, it took about 8 months before I was happy with his weight, we think he had a very bad worm burden and between good feeding, regular worming and the right amount of exercise he came good, but it did take a lot longer than I expected.

He was 5 1/2 and is registered ISH but looking at his passport his dam is TB, sire is ISH, so he is very thoroughbred in type.

Good luck, it is a struggle isn't it
 
What feeds are you currently using? My TB who's digestive system is rubbish has been put onto Pure Feeds condition, and it's helped put loads of weight onto her.

Other suggestions I can come up would be either to try Bailey's Outshine, and/or Champion Milk Pellets.

Have you tried anything like Globalherbs Immuplus and Detox.
 
I've been trying for 5 months. Am using topspec at the moment. The problem is, he starts to put weight on, begins to look acceptable, then drops it again with no discernable reason. The glucose tests have shown that he has absolutely no trouble absorbing, and his digestive tract is fully functioning, which is why vet suspects all the nutrients/calories are being used somewhere else. His previous owners have said that he was always wormed, but always quiet, and he never ran well racing, but they assumed this was his nature, whereas my vet thinks it's more down to malnutrition
 
If you're getting to last resort as suggested by the vet then I'd try:
Worm Count
Pure Feeds
A move to somewhere that he can go out 24/7 on good grass with some mates.
Twice now "poor doers" have come to lodge with me (one is still there) and they turned out to be quite good doers after all. The only real change was out 24/7 on good grass with others (suitably rugged but not over-rugged) and the outcome was that they needed a lot less food. I know you say he seems happy, and as that is the case this might not be a high priority, but if people are talking about him being pts then it would surely be worth a try for a few months.
 
montysmum1 said:
I've been trying for 5 months. Am using topspec at the moment. The problem is, he starts to put weight on, begins to look acceptable, then drops it again with no discernable reason. The glucose tests have shown that he has absolutely no trouble absorbing, and his digestive tract is fully functioning, which is why vet suspects all the nutrients/calories are being used somewhere else. His previous owners have said that he was always wormed, but always quiet, and he never ran well racing, but they assumed this was his nature, whereas my vet thinks it's more down to malnutrition
Click to expand...

I think you should have a chat with Queenbee on here.
 
Some suggestions from experience...

My horse a pure bred Arab was off colour for quite some time and never really put weight on. After trying all sorts and using Baileys low cal and Outshine for a while. I got a homeopathic Vet out (MRCVS qualified), with the approval of my vet. He re balanced the gut flora and fauna with a course of treatment and after a switch to Top Spec (full fat) Balancer he has never looked back.

P didn't have a worm burden or any other obvious issue. The problems he did have were wide ranging and had my vets (very well respected practice) baffled.

The other thing that sprang to mind was to have your Haylage analysed, think Dodgson & Horrell do it for about a fiver. There is sometimes an organism/bacteria (it may be a botumlism related one?) in Haylage that can cause these type of symptoms.

Hope this helps.
 
Ditto the ref to Queenbee.

I was going to suggest Saracen's Re-leve and their Equi-jewel. Excellent for putting on weight nice and steady without fizzing. But, having read further and seeing that he puts on weight then loses it, and here I'm assuming that the loss is not linked to work starting/being increased, then I'd say investigation route, especially if he does not seem well in himself.

With regards to pre-existing: you don't know for sure that it's pre-existing; and if you weren't aware of it and had no reason to believe 'it' was there, then the insurance should pay up. That's what has happened with three of my horses.
 
Well, now I know I've arrived, Amymay recommending me;) Montys mum, I am by no means a specialist, but I have had quite a bit of experience of late, and have read up a lot on the potential causes of weight loss. what I believe your vet is hinting at is some form of malabsorption, the causes of which can be various and many are not the best prognosis for the horse. There are 2 forms of malabsorption, protein and glucose, having carried out a glucose malabsorption test, it would appear that something is inhibiting your horses ability to absorb protein. As I said, the causes of this are varied some of the main ones are as follows,

A heavy worm burden
Scarring/damage from worms prior to having him
Carcinoma (cancer)
Liver problems
Bacterial infection

dont be overly scared by this list, The fact that your horse has survived for 5 months and has made some progress is very positive and I would assume its possibly something manageable or even fixable and I would not necessarily be looking to PTS for that very reason. I would have assumed that if it was something very sinister you would not be greeting your horse every morning by now.

If it were me then I would be looking at the following management:

Rugging: Never have the horse in less than a medium weight rug, unless the sunshine is out and its roasting, when stabled at night, my mare was actually in a mw stable rug and mw turnout on top, your horse needs to conserve as much energy as possible.

Supplements: Haemavite B + Your horse will be struggling to absorb the nutrients that it needs, B vitamins in particular play an important part in keeping gut function at its optimum, you also need to be guarding against anaemia, this supplement really works well, I swear it is what gave me an extra 4 weeks with my horse... it will bring the 'spark back' feed at the max rate of 50ml per day, it comes in syrup form and is nice and tasty :D http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/Product-1232/Vitamin-and-Mineral-Supplements-for-horses/Haemavite-B-Plus

Probiotic... feed a probiotic at all times, I used protinex, again for optimum gut function.

Milk thistle: for optimum liver function.

I would be considering the equivalent of 3-4 stubbs scoops of a high calorie feed a day, ideally something easily digestable... something like stud nuts, added to this sugar beet and oil, keep the feeds smaller... equivalent to scoops max per feed, and if possible break into 4 feeds a day. over night, fill a lg bucket with soaked allen and page veteran mix or fast fibre with additional oil, or something like Badminton ultra grass (this is coated in oil) I would be wary of using haylage unless you are sure of the quality, as someone said, send a sample off for analysis. There is no reason why you cant feed the soya and the above together, but I would not be feeding for body weight at the moment, I would be feeding as if for grass sickness, lots of high protein feed, but keep pushing oil and roughage to 'keep things moving'

The basic premis is that food is being absorbed, but something is inhibiting this happening at optimum level so you have to increase the amount of high calorie food to try to counter this.

The fact that you are 5 months in is a very positive step, as is the fact that there is fluctuation in the weight, it is clear that there are times when the function is better, your aim at the moment is to ensure that everything is functioning at its optimum level, to give your horse the best possible chance.

A few questions:

When did you last worm & with what?
What product did you treat with for ulcers?
What is the height of your horse, the body score and average weight?
How much haylage does he have at night?
Am I correct that you have just had basic bloods and glucose absorption?
Did your horse show a temperature?
You say coat condition is bad, are there any lesions/sores, is skin condition bad too?
Someone asked about previous home and history... what do you know about his previous home/care/lifestyle?



I will write a bit more, but will wait until I hear from you on the above questions.
 
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I had this problem with my two boys recently, I wormed again having only wormed 3 weeks previously. I also changed them off a soya food to a high calorie bran - both have gained good weight in the past month.
 
Queenbee - thank you for all of that info - i read the posts in Veterinary first and have replied in there too :)

Specific answers to your questions here though...
- last wormer was 'equimax', 9 weeks ago
- We used Gastroguard to treat for ulcers, although there was no alterations to his behaviour so vet said no point in feeding it after 2weeks, but i have kept him on limestone flour 'just in case'
- He is just over 17.2hh. On a scale of 1 - 10, he was about a 1 when i first got him, I have got him as far as a 3, but he has since dropped back to a 2. He currently is 511kg on a weight tape.
- He has had 'full bloods' done, and vet reported nothing significant, all well within healthy ranges. Liver and Kidney function perfect, and no sign of viral/bacterial infection. He has also had a glucose absorption test, results of which were perfect too. (4.2mg before, 8.6 at 120mins)
- He has not yet had a temperature
- This may sound silly, but his coat condition on his main body is actually ok, it's on his head and legs which he looks 'scabby', and small incidental cuts and scrapes don't heal well. The coat and skin on his head is scurfy, dry and flaky. I guess his body fairs better as he's always rugged?!
- I got him from a racing yard, his last race was end of December, I got him mid-Feb. I can only assume he was in a condition fit to race when he did, which means he lost a LOT of weight over a 6-7 week period, but I put this down to lack of food and proper care once his racing career had ended, I am now doubting this! His racing career, was not successful, he pulled up in all but his last race, in which he fell :rolleyes: Vet thinks his lack of success is most likely down to this malabsorption being a pretty well established problem...

Queenbee i cannot thank you enough for your input in this!! :)

HBM1, I came to that conclusion myself earlier today, as our recent drop in weight seems to have coincided with when I changed him to a high soya diet, as opposed to carbohydrates. My vet thinks this is just a coincidence, but I am glad that you have found the same, with positive reults.
 
Racing hmm, id also do the following, contact the yard, ask them what they were feeding him, it may be prudent to put him on a similar diet, also racehorses and ulcers... Do check out the hind gut. Unfortunately if it is not bacterial, viral, worm burden (I doubt) and liver is fine, if you rule out hind gut ulcers and end up looking at malabsorption, it's not good, at best it will be an expensive struggle, defining whether it is ulcers or not is key due to what approach is best... I really hope it's ulcers or worms although I doubt it's the latter :( it also sounds like the immune system is a bit compromised because the body is struggling, hence the skin issues, get a blood tonic down him, racers are often kept on haemavite or similar at the dose of 50mls, as you know I lost my mare, but I truly believe I owe a few very very precious weeks to a capful of this syrupy gloop a day x x if you need any more ideas you can always pm me, I can also give you links to research and literature I found really helpful.
 
Thanku again Queenbee, I forgot 2 mention he has also been on redcell at the 'competition level' dose, with no visible effect :-(
Will definitely look in2 hindgut ulcers though, as this does seem to be our only real hope
 
Don't know whether this will be much help but my friend has an exracehorse who wasn't right and his face and lips would swell up when out in the same field for more than a few days or if the grass was short. This was a year or 2 ago and after many tests was found to be leaking protein from his gut. I can't remember the ins and outs but i can get more details if you'd like them and the name of the vet who specialises in leaking protien that she uses. She put him on Nutriscience Gastrocare after being told she'd be lucky to get 18months before he got too uncomfortable - no harm in trying to help him if the result was to be the same - pts. Role on to April/May this year when he started to act out of character when ridden... Thinking the worst about his leaky gut she phoned the vet for another blood test and prepared for the bad news. The results showed that his protien was within normal range and therefore the gut is no longer leaking. The initial blood test showed his protien levels in the region where he shouldn't be alive! The only supplement for his guts she has used is Gastrcare which has healed the leak as it were, meaning the horse can absorb protein like normal. Unfortunately his out of character behaviour looks to be down to wear and tear after a long racing career being wonky and compensating too much now taking it's toll :-(
 
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