Weird field behaviour - aggression

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Trot_on

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Hi all

Just wondering if anyone else can help me shed some light on my horse's behaviour/have experienced something similar.

Bit of background - I've had horse 11 years, turned out with mares and geldings in the past but spent all his time while I've had him with my other horse too... sometimes other horses are added to the mix and most the time, he's very happy in a herd.

Most of the time, this is totally fine - they all get along and my other horse is very quietly dominent in any herd.

The horse in question is an odd one - not a born leader and doesn't do well in 'leadership' herd roles - so luckily it works well with my other horse. Generally, he is a total sweetheart to handle and ride, good fun, loves getting out and about, easy to to with other horses around, travels well with other horses, like company but also happy to go alone etc

On the very odd occasion, when a new horse has either been introduced to the herd or escaped into his field, he sees red and literally goes into 'wild horse' mode - he's out to kill, driving the horse up and down a fenceline at gallop while attached to it with his mouth. He is fast, so it's rare the other horse can outrun him. The only way we've managed to stop him from killing the horse is by getting the victim horse out while blocking my horse off with spades/coats/whatever we can find to wave at him to get him away (he will try take down anyone between him and the victim horse). Once victim horse is out the way, he forgets within seconds and reverts back to being the sweetest horse to handle and not in anyway dangerous.

This has happened 5 times in 11 years...
  1. Once with a very stallion-like Welsh Sec A in the field next door - I thought my horse was going to go through the electric fence to get to it. Luckily I was there and removed pony and they never went next to each other again. My horse is normally terrified of electric fencing.
  2. Second time was with a colt that I had said I wasn't 100% comfortable with them trying to introduce to the herd due to my horses previous behaviour (and at that point putting it down to it being directed at horses with testosterone). Managed to let colt gallop out of the field and close gate before my horse ran out to seperate them. They'd been introduced previously over a fence and it was time to see if colt would be accepted into the herd.
  3. Third time was a friends horse who escaped into his field - friend's horse thought my horse was playing... luckily too big to be too concerned!
  4. Forth time was a shetland who wriggled under a fence to say hello... they often say hello happily over the fence! Poor pony got galloped up and down a few times before we managed to let him make an escape while my horse was temporarily being told off by my other horse. He was pretty badly marked from my horse - I felt awful
All of these have happened at the initial introduction (planned or unplanned). He's shared his field with lots of horses inbetween these without issue, groomed, being friends, played. Generally, if the initial introduction goes well, then he's settled and gets on with his life.

Then this most recent breaks that rule. He'd been introduced, knew the horses for years across different yards, been out riding loads, shared trailer etc we introduced the herd incredibly slowly and carefully and once in the same field, they were getting on really well (four horses)- they're lived together for about 2 months on 24/7 turnout - grooming, grazing together, and then my horse switched and yesterday he attacked one of the other horses. I've no idea why, they have lots of food, we don't treat them in the field.

The only pattern I think there is is someone is generally always present (thank god!) Obvioulsy, we're always present for introductions but as this herd had been together for a few months now, they've been out 24/7 and often unsupervised. This happened yesterday when people were in the field poo picking. I'd dread to think what would happen if he did this when someone wasn't around to rescue the victim horse.

The thing is, when I say attack, it's not just a little bite or kick, it's a full on frenzied attack and will not stop for anything and has a total personality transplant. I've not known anything like it and he's smart with it... he gets so close that they can't get him but he can stay attached to them and drive them along. It's very scary to witness.

They will now be securely seperated and I won't ever risk introducing another horse two my two as I no longer feel like I can trust my horse, whereas before, we were happy so long as the initial meeting went well, which we've always done slowly and carefully to gauge how he will react. I wonder if he's a bit riggy, but I'd expect the behaviour to be more consistent.

I cannot stress how lovely this horse is when he is 'normal', and how wild he goes. He doens't show this behaviour in any other situation and is not aggressive at any point when ridden/handled.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this before with their horse?
 
Kaylum said:
Is he protecting the other horse?
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I don't believe so... the other horse is in no way vunerable and very obviously the boss of the field. He is very much every horses friend, so I do wonder if it could be that he's jealous then my other horse becomes friends with other horses... but I think violent horse would become agressive towards every horse they shared a field with then, not just odd ones.
 
Have you had bloods run to check the testosterone levels? Ie a rig test?

The only other thing that comes immediately to mind is the potential for a tumour of some sort - are you able to discuss this with your vet or ask for a referral?

It seems quite extreme behaviour for it to be a non-veterinary thing, however, I have/have known a few true geldings to occasionally act out of character like this, and I have had to step in on the odd occasion to drive one out of the herd to bring them back to their senses. When the 'drive'/'chase'/'rage' mentality kicks in it can take a fair bit to bring them back to Earth - usually exhaustion if nobody's there to step in.

Sorry, that's probably not much help.
 
I was wondering if it could be neurological/brain tumour, too.

I’m afraid that I’d never trust a horse with a random flip switch like that, not in any sphere, even if currently the aggression has only been shown to other horses. Beyond my red line, unless a definite medical cause can be found and treated.
 
He does have Melanoma so it could be a tumour of some sort.Though he doesn’t show any other signs of having any type of neuro issues.


If it was more regular/seen in any other type of situation, I’d agree with you Tiddlypom but the second the victim horse os removed, he’s completely back to normal again and acts like nithig happened. It’s not even like his adrenaline is up. So weird. He is 100% reliable in any other situation.

The more i write down the weirder it sounds!

Haven’t had a rig test done, but it has been at the back of my mind to do one. Vet is with us for dentals next week so i’m going to ask.
 
I have known horses with brain tumours before and while i know it affects them all differently, he doesn’t act like those horses at all. They’d be more consistent in their behaviour across all aspects of their life, not just one particular moment.
 
I had a horse that would attack others. At first we thought it was random but it got worse over time and we worked out that it was triggered by air pressure drops and strong winds. I had him put down when the others all became afraid of him. We wondered if he suffered from some kind of migraine. He was always nice mannered with people.
 
rabatsa said:
I had a horse that would attack others. At first we thought it was random but it got worse over time and we worked out that it was triggered by air pressure drops and strong winds. I had him put down when the others all became afraid of him. We wondered if he suffered from some kind of migraine. He was always nice mannered with people.
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That’s really interesting and I’m sorry you had to have him PTS.

It’s definitely not weather related and the others weirdly don’t appear scared if him after it’s all over (the shetland tried to get back in again!)
 
My old horse, a mare, used to claim a horse in the field as her own and violently attack anything who went near it. Hence spending most of her life on individual turnout. She was quite predictable, though. Lovely to handle and ride and hacked in company and all that.
 
Do you think it could be his sight?

I knew a mare at the RS I learned at who was mostly blind, and they only found out after putting her on individual turnout due to having random bouts of aggression with other horses. At first, it was mostly targeted at unfamiliar horses, but she eventually became aggressive with ones she knew, presumably as her sight got worse. She was always very good with humans and she was 100% in the school, although she did get a bit nippy if complete strangers tried to tack her up. It took them a long time to figure it out, and it seemed very random. Some horses wouldn’t get attacked, some would. It was also relatively infrequent.

This was all when I was too little to be aware, she’s still alive, she’s on individual turnout but she can say hi to other horses over the fence.
 
Hmmm, I am inclined towards the tumour thing. Is he grey? Has he ever had Lymes disease? My old mare unfortunately got Lymes disease and became extremely unpredictable, but she was more standing around looking relaxed and enjoying the day one minute and then suddenly exploding into a nightmare dervish galloping the field, trying to attack me if I was in the field but never the other field companions. She did eventually recover enough to retire but too dangerous to ever ride again unfortunately. But it was intermittent she could be fine for a long time and then suddenly explode again.

I think definitely needs a vet's input. I hope you get to the bottom of it but I would not be letting it in a field with any other horse if it were mine.
 
I’m sorry you are going through this, I hope you get to the bottom of it for his sake, and for the other horses! I don’t think I’d be comfortable having him turned out or near other horses if he was mine with this behaviour sadly x
 
A friend of mine kept a pony in a mixed herd.

Lived in the same herd for a few years with no trouble.

Seemingly at random one day, the herd turned on her mare. She came in with something like 16 bite/kicks.

I guess to us it seems random, but there must be something that triggers it, even if we never figure it out.

Im another who would never turn this horse out with others again. I guess if you want to risk it with your own horse then its your prerogative, but youre right to not put anyone else's horses at risk.

My first horse was a sod in the field (not quite like what you describe mind you) and I remember feeling rotten about it.
 
I’ve had 2 geldings like this before , tested negative for being a rig. One turned out to be in pain upon X-rays, the other I still have. He is territorial/protective of his friends and introducing newbies is really, tricky for the same reasons you say. If introduced in his not usual field with lots of grass he’s too busy to care but if it’s his field nope. He doesn’t have any health issues he’s very protective of his herd/fieldmates , so we just do pairs turnout now, not worth the stress.

Having said that he hasn’t (that I’m aware of) attacked one he’s been in with for a while randomly , it’s newbies, he also hasn’t caused any injuries.

Can you just make his turnout more secure/electrified to stop any break ins and just keep him alone or with your other horse?

I know how you feel though so have my sympathies like having the bad child at school , but sadly we can’t just have a word or put them on a naughty step.
 
Caol Ila said:
My old horse, a mare, used to claim a horse in the field as her own and violently attack anything who went near it. Hence spending most of her life on individual turnout. She was quite predictable, though. Lovely to handle and ride and hacked in company and all that.
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Thanks for this - this sounds most similar but more predictable. He is 100% with my other horse so from now on, he will only ever have him as a companion and no other horse will be allowed to share their field. Same with mine - lovely to travel with others/hack with them/ tie up around them etc
 
HaplessHorse said:
Do you think it could be his sight?

I knew a mare at the RS I learned at who was mostly blind, and they only found out after putting her on individual turnout due to having random bouts of aggression with other horses. At first, it was mostly targeted at unfamiliar horses, but she eventually became aggressive with ones she knew, presumably as her sight got worse. She was always very good with humans and she was 100% in the school, although she did get a bit nippy if complete strangers tried to tack her up. It took them a long time to figure it out, and it seemed very random. Some horses wouldn’t get attacked, some would. It was also relatively infrequent.

This was all when I was too little to be aware, she’s still alive, she’s on individual turnout but she can say hi to other horses over the fence.
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Ah, thanks for sharing. This is interesting as he can be spooky sometimes too, thought I just put this down to personality, green hacking and begin a Connie.

He doesn't show signs of sight loss in other situations - reads jumps really well, brave out XC in all weathers so I 'm not sure it would be his sight, but I will keep an eye on this going foreward (pun unintended!)
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
Hmmm, I am inclined towards the tumour thing. Is he grey? Has he ever had Lymes disease? My old mare unfortunately got Lymes disease and became extremely unpredictable, but she was more standing around looking relaxed and enjoying the day one minute and then suddenly exploding into a nightmare dervish galloping the field, trying to attack me if I was in the field but never the other field companions. She did eventually recover enough to retire but too dangerous to ever ride again unfortunately. But it was intermittent she could be fine for a long time and then suddenly explode again.

I think definitely needs a vet's input. I hope you get to the bottom of it but I would not be letting it in a field with any other horse if it were mine.
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Hi is grey and does have melanoma already present in his neck and along the side of his face - nothing too major and he had the jabs for it 9 years ago, which halted their growth (visible growth anyway). Vets keep a close eye on them alongside photos I take regularly. Doesn't have visible ones anywhere else. Though, obviously this doesn't mean there isn't internal ones causing issues.

I've no idea RE Lyme's Disease - he's not had it while I've had him, but I didn't get him until he was 9, and he didn't come with much history!

He's never, ever shown any aggreession towards humans or my other horse and has never given me reason to doubt him undersaddle... if it were a tumour, I'd expect the behaviour to be a bit more consistent across different sitations, if that makes sense? I'm 100% comfortable with him being out with my other horse, who is he has never even attempted to challenge or show dominnent behavious towards, let alone attack. They are like peas in a pod and have been the 11 years they've been together.

Vet is with us next week, so I'll mention it and see what they say.
 
Bobthecob15 said:
I’m sorry you are going through this, I hope you get to the bottom of it for his sake, and for the other horses! I don’t think I’d be comfortable having him turned out or near other horses if he was mine with this behaviour sadly x
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It's really crap... it's not the end of the world as luckily at our yard I can do what I want with my field and section him off. He is also really fearful of electric fencing so that keeps him where he should be - he's never gone through fencing to get to another horse (only looked like he might with the first pony). I feel most sad, as the little herd they had was lovely and they all got on so well.
 
Jenko109 said:
A friend of mine kept a pony in a mixed herd.

Lived in the same herd for a few years with no trouble.

Seemingly at random one day, the herd turned on her mare. She came in with something like 16 bite/kicks.

I guess to us it seems random, but there must be something that triggers it, even if we never figure it out.

Im another who would never turn this horse out with others again. I guess if you want to risk it with your own horse then its your prerogative, but youre right to not put anyone else's horses at risk.

My first horse was a sod in the field (not quite like what you describe mind you) and I remember feeling rotten about it.
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That's interesting - I know sometimes a herd can turn on a horse if they're ill/at risk of putting the whole herd at risk by being slow etc

You're right, I'll probably never truely know the 'why' behind it, all I can really do is watch that it doesn't become prograssivly worse, which is something I'll watch closely going forward.

As mentioned above, I do 100% trust him with my other horse - he's never shown any aggression towards him and is completely submissive to him... my other horse can push him off his food and provokes zero reaction. but yes, after this, they'll never have any other horses introduced.

I've been thinking about it a lot over the weekend and I think this occassion may have just been a battle for 'second place' in the herd and my horse just took it a bit too far.
 
motherof2beasts! said:
I’ve had 2 geldings like this before , tested negative for being a rig. One turned out to be in pain upon X-rays, the other I still have. He is territorial/protective of his friends and introducing newbies is really, tricky for the same reasons you say. If introduced in his not usual field with lots of grass he’s too busy to care but if it’s his field nope. He doesn’t have any health issues he’s very protective of his herd/fieldmates , so we just do pairs turnout now, not worth the stress.

Having said that he hasn’t (that I’m aware of) attacked one he’s been in with for a while randomly , it’s newbies, he also hasn’t caused any injuries.

Can you just make his turnout more secure/electrified to stop any break ins and just keep him alone or with your other horse?

I know how you feel though so have my sympathies like having the bad child at school , but sadly we can’t just have a word or put them on a naughty step.
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The territorial one sounds most like mine... I have been thinking a lot over the weekend and I believe this was a fight for second place in the herd. I think he is also very protective of his relationship with my other horse (not protective of him as such, but the relationship they have) - problem is, my other horse is every horses' best friend.

His fencing is always very secure - the instances when others have got in have been really random. Once when mine were being brought in and another horse got loose and pushed it's way into their field (very weird incident!) and mine hadn't been caught yet, the other was because hy horses field hedge was being cut so they went into another field for the afternoon and the shetland pushed it's way under the post and rail fencing. I'd asked the yard to just put them in their stables, but it was sunny so they choose to put them in this other field - which would have been fine, had it not being for naughty shetland!
 
Thanks for all the replies guys - I've been thinking about it a lot this weekend and sat and watched him in the field with my other horse for hours yesterday and he's completely back to his normal, sweet self.

For this instance, I've kind of put it down to a battle for second place in the herd, and my horse has just taken things too far. My other horse is really dominent, but never aggressive... he's always a herd leader and quietly asserts his dominance constantly and have never fought another horse... he is also every other horses best mate, grooms with them all, buddies up and I think he generally makes horses around him feel very safe.

My horse who's the subject of this thread is quite insecure and I think depends on his companionship for his security. This doesn't explain every instance, but I think, in this situation, my insecure horse has probably been getting wound up by my herd-leader horse being mates with the others and putting their relationship at risk, so he's eventually exploded. The horse he attacked is normally quite dominent, and now my herd-leader horse has asserted and secured his dominance, the battle for second place started.

Mine are now sectioned with a strong voltage and will stay that way going forward.

Vet is with us next week for teeth etc, so I'll discuss the potential for other causes but I'm hoping seperation will solve it for now. I will watch closey for signs that he is challenging my other horse for top spot, neuro signs and eye issues.

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply - hopefully this will be the last we see of this behaviour. I'll sure do everything I can to find out if the 'why' is something we can solve.
 
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