Weird illness - any ideas

Evie91

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Good Evening all, posting in desperation really. Have a poorly horse, he is receiving vet treatment but currently stumped by his symptoms. Posting on here in case anyone has experienced anything similar. None of my friends or contacts have ever experienced this and I feel stuck and desperate to help my beautiful boy.
Horse is ex race tb, 7 years old, perfect happy hacker, lives out 24/7 (as his preference - doesn’t like being stabled), going into third winter living out (previous two has thrived), has field shelter, rugs, companions, hard feed and hay, lives in large field with natural shelter and field shelter, automatic water trough, plenty of space, little mud, was ridden four times a week - mainly hacking, some jumping and schooling. Up to date with all usual checks. Horse is having vet care and I’ve tried to keep concise- he has had everything thrown at him to try and address this (not literally!).

So probably 8 weeks ago horse had what I’m now describing as an ’episode’ came into stable fine, then almost immediately began to choke. Treated with airwaves and was fine, week or so later same thing then progressed to colic symptoms- walked horse around, he threw himself on the ground, rolled once, eyes glazed over, teeth exposed and I thought he was dead! (as did professional who was with me at the time), unmoving for five minutes, got up shook himself and completely fine. Vet phoned - just monitor as seemed fine. Two days later another episode, bought in from field immediately showing colic signs, vet called, horse walked, throwing himself on the floor, laying still, jumping up. Vet attends, on examination no signs of colic (no spasms, no elevated heart rate), given pain relief.
Horse scoped has some ulcers, now six weeks into treatment and ulcers (including hind gut) 75% better. Horse continues with episodes. Has lost significant amount of weight. Episodes usually begin with horse lying flat out in field, gets up, paws the ground, refuses to eat, throws himself around Or he seems like he is suffering from mild choke but isn’t (hard to describe). Last two episodes he’s been put on the walker and seems ok after about an hour. This horse has always loved his food but now barely eats - is stood at the hay bar but picking strands rather than stuffing his face.
My concern is that although the ulcers are getting better I’m seeing no improvement in him and he continues to lose weight (obvs no longer riding). Professionals involved are stumped, he continues with ulcer treatment and weekly vet visits ( for injections). Vets are discussing next steps but unsure where to start. He’s had blood tests - all fine, heart fine, wormed, teeth fine (checked two weeks ago even though he wasn’t due). There’s probably a lot more I haven’t gone into (as want people to read and give advice, not get bored and log off). There is no pattern, happens all times of the day (assume sometimes they are missed, these are the only ones we know about), no correlation with being fed (or not), no two episodes are exactly the same although each time he does refuse food and seems off for a few days afterwards (quiet).
anyone got any advice, seen anything similar?
 

Evie91

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That sounds incredibly scary for all of you. It's nearly like a seizure?
Definitely scary but not like a seizure as he is so obviously ‘present’. he’s very communicative- can tell a lot from his facial expressions and apart from when I thought he had died, he‘s def aware of what’s going on.
 

Evie91

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Weird isn’t it - I’ve seen people have epileptic fits but they don’t seem to be ‘there’ or concious in the same way (sorry not intending to insult anyone who suffers with epilepsy) but he is telling me and showing me (and others) whilst this is happening that he is in pain or unhappy/uncomfortable.
No specialist yet as need to decide what specialism applies. Having further conversations tomorrow.
 

Evie91

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My friend's horse had a large tumour which caused seizures. I can't remember what it was pressing on but sadly it wasn't fixable.
This is what I’m worried about. Really willing to try everything- he is just my (2nd) perfect horse. Never thought I’d find another but he ticks all the boxes, he really is such a super star!
 

Pearlsacarolsinger

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Weird isn’t it - I’ve seen people have epileptic fits but they don’t seem to be ‘there’ or concious in the same way (sorry not intending to insult anyone who suffers with epilepsy) but he is telling me and showing me (and others) whilst this is happening that he is in pain or unhappy/uncomfortable.
No specialist yet as need to decide what specialism applies. Having further conversations tomorrow.
Seizures can take many different forms. I watched a training video about epileptic seizures in children and they really aren't 'out of it' as one would expect, in all seizures. I had a child in my class who would run round the classroom with his arm sticking out, knocking into everything in his way. Not what you think of immediately when a child is diagnosed with epilepsy. I would suspect epilepsy, or some other cause if seizures in your horse. I would certainly ask the vets to investigate that as far as possible.
 

Evie91

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Seizures can take many different forms. I watched a training video about epileptic seizures in children and they really aren't 'out of it' as one would expect, in all seizures. I had a child in my class who would run round the classroom with his arm sticking out, knocking into everything in his way. Not what you think of immediately when a child is diagnosed with epilepsy. I would suspect epilepsy, or some other cause if seizures in your horse. I would certainly ask the vets to investigate that as far as possible.
Thank you, TBf my experience with epilepsy is limited so will take what you say on board and discuss with vet as seems to be majority view so far.
 

Dave's Mam

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Seizures can take many different forms. I watched a training video about epileptic seizures in children and they really aren't 'out of it' as one would expect, in all seizures. I had a child in my class who would run round the classroom with his arm sticking out, knocking into everything in his way. Not what you think of immediately when a child is diagnosed with epilepsy. I would suspect epilepsy, or some other cause if seizures in your horse. I would certainly ask the vets to investigate that as far as possible.

Yes, seizures can take on a full spectrum of forms. My friend has "Absence seizures" where she is definitely not there, but not the heavily active seizures that some have. Some can seem to be very much THERE but not in their normal persona.
A typical symptom of all seizures is to be pretty exhausted afterwards, the brain has just done an awful lot of electrical acrobatics, and it's tired.
 

dorsetladette

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I think I'd be thinking brain injury or neck issues. Episodes or seizures are exhausting and can take a couple of days to get over.

On another note - if he's in a herd watch for him getting picked on. If he's not feeling well his place in the herd will be up for grabs, which is also stressful and exhausting in itself.
 

Evie91

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I think I'd be thinking brain injury or neck issues. Episodes or seizures are exhausting and can take a couple of days to get over.

On another note - if he's in a herd watch for him getting picked on. If he's not feeling well his place in the herd will be up for grabs, which is also stressful and exhausting in itself.
Thank you he’s only out with three others - they’re a quiet bunch, but will keep an eye out.
 

Patterdale

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I wouldn’t go straight to thinking seizures.

My first thought, having had much TB experience, is that this one is having painful spasmodic colic and being…well….not stoical about it let’s say. I don’t like to call horses dramatic, but many TBs are. Having seen the TB ‘I’m dying I’m dying!’ histrionics before that’s exactly what it strikes me as.

Now whatever is causing this possible pain is obviously very real and uncomfortable. The trouble is that causes for spasmodic colic and overall condition loss could be pretty much anything. The fact that it coincides with the ulcer diagnosis (did you have him scoped?) could be a good clue.
 

4Hoofed

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Odd question but is he standing normally in between times? Or do you ever catch him standing with his feet together ie fronts and back’s more central than normal (monkey on a drum I think my vet call it) or rocking slightly as he stands? Very scary and upsetting for you!
 

TheMule

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I think he needs referral, probably to be be admitted and very closely monitored.
At the moment he’s not being medically managed correctly and he’s only getting worse. Referral to a bigger unit will give you internal medicine specialists on hand. It won’t be cheap, but it sounds like you’re running out of options.
FWIW I would still suspect a gut issue
 

Marigold4

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I had an ISH mare who had episodes of lying flat out looking as though she was dying. It was almost like she was trying to show us how awful she felt - like a kind of act. She didn't fall down, she lay herself down. She was conscious throughout, like yours. She also developed a few episodes of mildish colic that were treated with boscupan and later pain meds. The vet diagnosed a strangulating lipoma and we think it was causing her a lot of pain. I'm sorry to say that we PTS as she was 22 at the time and had other issues. Later on though, others asked how did the vet know it was a strangulating lipoma as she wasn't operated on and it couldn't be felt internally. I guess just through experience - it was a very experienced well-known vet. But the diagnosis of strangulating lipoma isn't 100% certain, to my mind. It was also 20 years ago so maybe diagnostics have moved on and they would have better ways of checking now.
 

Evie91

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I wouldn’t go straight to thinking seizures.

My first thought, having had much TB experience, is that this one is having painful spasmodic colic and being…well….not stoical about it let’s say. I don’t like to call horses dramatic, but many TBs are. Having seen the TB ‘I’m dying I’m dying!’ histrionics before that’s exactly what it strikes me as.

Now whatever is causing this possible pain is obviously very real and uncomfortable. The trouble is that causes for spasmodic colic and overall condition loss could be pretty much anything. The fact that it coincides with the ulcer diagnosis (did you have him scoped?) could be a good clue.
Yes, this! He’s not the bravest horse and really is very expressive.He has been called dramatic but is obviously in pain and letting us know.
Yes, he’s been scoped - hence treating the ulcers, they are now significantly better but he is not. I’ve been convinced ulcers are secondary but it’s where to start to find the primary cause of his discomfort that we are now struggling with.
 

Evie91

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Odd question but is he standing normally in between times? Or do you ever catch him standing with his feet together ie fronts and back’s more central than normal (monkey on a drum I think my vet call it) or rocking slightly as he stands? Very scary and upsetting for you!
Yes normal in between, no odd posture, no rocking, balance issues or lameness. Physio has been - no hotspots identified.
 

Evie91

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I think he needs referral, probably to be be admitted and very closely monitored.
At the moment he’s not being medically managed correctly and he’s only getting worse. Referral to a bigger unit will give you internal medicine specialists on hand. It won’t be cheap, but it sounds like you’re running out of options.
FWIW I would still suspect a gut issue
Me too- been googling like mad and have a few ideas to mention to the vet/s - sure they‘ll love me!!
 

Evie91

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I had an ISH mare who had episodes of lying flat out looking as though she was dying. It was almost like she was trying to show us how awful she felt - like a kind of act. She didn't fall down, she lay herself down. She was conscious throughout, like yours. She also developed a few episodes of mildish colic that were treated with boscupan and later pain meds. The vet diagnosed a strangulating lipoma and we think it was causing her a lot of pain. I'm sorry to say that we PTS as she was 22 at the time and had other issues. Later on though, others asked how did the vet know it was a strangulating lipoma as she wasn't operated on and it couldn't be felt internally. I guess just through experience - it was a very experienced well-known vet. But the diagnosis of strangulating lipoma isn't 100% certain, to my mind. It was also 20 years ago so maybe diagnostics have moved on and they would have better ways of checking now.
Yes this, but he’s just much more dramatic by nature. He’s definitely showing me something is not right, rather than a fit I’d say. He throws himself down, again doesn’t trip or fall but almost like ‘I can’t possibly go on’ and I can see from his eyes he is tired and in pain during these times and his nostrils almost draw together. This is what I’m worried about that something is being strangled, twisted, or pressed upon and gets unbareable and then shifts and releases a bit. He’s only seven, so I’m hoping it’s treatable, but this is an accurate description of how he is, but in a more dramatic personality. Going to ask the vet about this, thank you.
 

Evie91

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Some horses don’t show classic colic symptoms, or examination for colic can appear normal, when in reality there is a problem further in.
I’d get him admitted and investigated. Cecal impactions can cause strange behaviour.
Thank you, this is what I’m worried about, problem in intestines maybe, that can’t easily be seen or felt.
 
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