Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[tallyho!]

After the recent poll by perfect11s:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=489592

Many agreed a sticky would be very useful, but the format needed to change to avoid the confusion/arguments.

At the end of the above thread, ROG kindly agreed to help run a Towing Clinic for those who find the laws & limitations as confusing as I did.


Here is an example of how it will work:-

"If a member on here was to provide me with the relevant info then I can say whether the set up is legal or not on either a B or BE licence and WHY

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

- ROG

"I'll start here first...

1. B+E Licence
2. 2410kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 3450kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4. 2500kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Thanks ROG. "

- tallyho!

"LEGAL

1 - max vehicle GVW of 3500 (you got 3450) and max trailer MAM of 3500 (you got 1905)
2 - correct - usually listed in handbook
3 - correct - number 2 (2410) with full load of 1040 (2410+1040=3450)
4 - max weight of empty trailer plus the load on it
5 minus 6 1905-905=1000 so 1000 is the max load that can be loaded onto the trailer

5 is much lower than 4 so a fully laden trailler weighing 1905 is well within the max towing capacity of 2500

Your max combination weight would be 5355 with that set up (3450+1905=5355) but you could go up to 5950 if you got a trailer with a MAM of at least 2500 (up to 3500)

ADD - the problem in getting a trailer with a greater MAM could be that it is heavier when empty so getting a 3500 MAM trailer which weighed 1500 empty still only allows you a max payload of 1000 because of the 2500 towing capacity limit for your vehicle

If you are happy with the trailer load capacity of 1000 then great! "

-ROG

Hope that makes sense and you find it useful. Any questions about using the clinic, please PM me so we can keep the clinic running as smoothly as possible.

Useful Links:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Nissan#tab1

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm

TYRE LOAD RATINGS calculate KGS by multiplying the number of tyres

ROG's thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968

 

[perfect11s]

Yes good work Tallyho! thanks for taking the trouble to put it together.. and Rog for making the generous offer to help people , now we just need to get admin's opinion and see if they will do a sticky, anyone know the best way to go about contacting the right person?????

 

[ROG]

Nicely put together tallyho! and I'll second perfect11s comments

 

[tallyho!]

Thanks to you both too - sent you both pm's to keep thread straightforwrd

 

[becca1305]

a really great idea glad it came into formation. I am literally just about to move up to a lorry but have previously found the rules/laws regarding towing very confusing so I am sure this will help a lot of people kudos to the knowledgeable towing lot!

 

[brown tack]

Well done for your effort and thank you!

So here we go. I've got a disco r reg auto

B
2065kg
2720kg
3500kg braked
1600kg
767kg

 

[ROG]

B
2065kg
2720kg
3500kg braked
1600kg
767kg

ILLEGAL on a B licence

2720+1600=4320 which is more than the 3500 allowed for B when towing a trailer of more than 750 MAM

With that towing vehicle you need to have a trailer plated at no more than 780 (2720+780=3500)

 

[Maisy]

I wouldn't have a clue what half of those numbers are.....

I have a discovery (III), an IW505 and the maximum I will tow is 2 x 500kg horses. I have the pre '97 licence, (which I am pretty sure is B+E!). I am 99.9% sure I am legal.....I have always thought that with the discovery I could pretty much pack the trailer with whatever I could and still be legal!?

 

[ROG]

I wouldn't have a clue what half of those numbers are.....

I have a discovery (III), an IW505 and the maximum I will tow is 2 x 500kg horses. I have the pre '97 licence, (which I am pretty sure is B+E!). I am 99.9% sure I am legal.....I have always thought that with the discovery I could pretty much pack the trailer with whatever I could and still be legal!?

Those numbers are weights in KGs and can be easily found in the handbook or if not got one then by searching online for your exact vehicle and its specifications

If you can give me the exact year and model of your disco then I can find those specifications for you to fill in Qs 2, 3 + 4

The 505 - http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB505.htm is plated at Maximum Gross Weight 2340 and Unladen Weight 905

So this would be your list so far -
1 - B+E (pre 97 licence)
2 - ?
3 - ?
4 - ?
5 - 2340
6 - 905

 

[Maisy]

My car is a '56' plate (does that mean the year is 2006!?), and is a TDV6...



As you can tell, I don't know much about cars.....

 

[ROG]

My car is a '56' plate (does that mean the year is 2006!?), and is a TDV6....

GOT IT ALL - ta http://www.getcarspecs.com/land-rover/2006-land-rover-discovery-3-tdv6-se/print
1 - B+E (pre 97 licence)
2 - 2440 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2708 = fully loaded weight
4 - 3493 = max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty
LEGAL on a B+E licence

Your current trailer can carry a load of 1435 kgs

You could get a bigger trailer up to 3500 if you wanted to and still be legal if you loaded it to capacity (well, except for 7kgs but no authority will bother with that)

 

[brown tack]

ILLEGAL on a B licence

2720+1600=4320 which is more than the 3500 allowed for B when towing a trailer of more than 750 MAM

With that towing vehicle you need to have a trailer plated at no more than 780 (2720+780=3500)

Thought so, but hoped with a single trailer it would be legal.

What I don't get though is the b or b+e license's? I thought that anyone who took the standard driving test after 1997 had a just a b license. But some say that they have b+e when passing the standard test after 1997

I thought the b+e was the trailer license?

 

[ROG]

Thought so, but hoped with a single trailer it would be legal.

What I don't get though is the b or b+e license's? I thought that anyone who took the standard driving test after 1997 had a just a b license. But some say that they have b+e when passing the standard test after 1997

I thought the b+e was the trailer license?

B+E is the full trailer towing licence but B licence holders can tow trailers but there area lot of rules regarding that
Those that passed their B test after 97 do not have B+E entitlement but they do have B+E provisional
B licence holders must pass the DSA B+E test to gain full B+E

 

[brown tack]

B+E is the full trailer towing licence but B licence holders can tow trailers but there area lot of rules regarding that
Those that passed their B test after 97 do not have B+E entitlement but they do have B+E provisional
B licence holders must pass the DSA B+E test to gain full B+E

Thought so. I that case I know of a few that are being very naughty. Ie driving a disco, double trailer and 2 big horses appox going out about twice a week, no l plates etc.

Thought I was being fobbed off as it just didn't make sense.

Going to have a quite word next time I see her

 

[ROG]

General note: -
A couple of members have asked me questions and given their set-ups via the PM system and although I do not mind giving private responses I would prefer to do them publically for a couple of reasons -

1 - I am not infallible so if I do make an error then it can be picked up by others

2 - Other members can see the set-ups and the answers given which might be useful to them

Thanks

 

[Mince Pie]

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1535kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2750kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = 1750kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 550kg

 

[ROG]

1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1535kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2750kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = 1750kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 550kg

ILLEGAL for a B licence

Reasons are -

The MAM of the trailer 1750 is more than the unladen/empty weight 1535 of the towing vehicle

Also The GVW of the towing vehicle 2750 plus the trailer MAM 1750 adds up to 4500 which is more than the allowed 3500 maximum when towing a trailer over 750 MAM

With the towing vehicle having a GVW of 2750 then the max trailer MAM cannot be more than 750 kgs (2750=750=3500)

The set-up would be legal on a B+E licence

 

[TallulahBright]

I've got an Ifor Williams 510 classic trailer and have been looking at a short wheel base Pajero- spec says it'll tow 2500kg but wanted to know if any of you fine people have experience/ advice re towing with short wheel base. My horse 16.1hh and weighs around 550kg. What do you think?? Thanks

 

[tallyho!]

I've got an Ifor Williams 510 classic trailer and have been looking at a short wheel base Pajero- spec says it'll tow 2500kg but wanted to know if any of you fine people have experience/ advice re towing with short wheel base. My horse 16.1hh and weighs around 550kg. What do you think?? Thanks

Happy to help tallulahbright, could you tell us some more information:

1 - What licence you hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - Gross Vehicle Weight of the towing vehicle
4 - Gross Towing Weight and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer

I'm sure it's not a problem towing with SWB but we should check according to the laws.

 

[ROG]

I've got an Ifor Williams 510 classic trailer and have been looking at a short wheel base Pajero- spec says it'll tow 2500kg but wanted to know if any of you fine people have experience/ advice re towing with short wheel base. My horse 16.1hh and weighs around 550kg. What do you think?? Thanks

1 - What licence you hold = B+E (I hope)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1750 appx
3 - Gross Vehicle Weight of the towing vehicle = 2400 appx
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2500
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 1000

Using a B+E licence the above set-up is legal providing the trailer is never loaded with more than 1500 because the towing capacity is 2500 (1500+1000=2500) but I think the issue here is whether using a SWB will be 'balanced' enough for safe towing

I would say yes because if it was not then a trailer size limit would have been mentioned by the manufacturer of the towing vehicle

I often see towing vehicles that are far shorter than the trailer they are towing and have never seen them have any problems but science dictates that a larger wheel based towing vehicle is going to be more stable (pun!) than a smaller one

 

[Rudey]

Excellent thread! I wondered if you can help me with my backing query please? When I back my trailer, I look round with my head out of the window, occasionally checking my left mirror. I cannot seem to back, purely sitting forward using both mirrors. In a test, are you able to back using the method I first mentioned, or only the latter?

I'm in the process of booking lessons. Just thought I could get plenty of practice in beforehand if I knew! Thanks xx

 

[ROG]

Excellent thread! I wondered if you can help me with my backing query please? When I back my trailer, I look round with my head out of the window, occasionally checking my left mirror. I cannot seem to back, purely sitting forward using both mirrors. In a test, are you able to back using the method I first mentioned, or only the latter?

I'm in the process of booking lessons. Just thought I could get plenty of practice in beforehand if I knew! Thanks xx

Reversing on a B+E test - you are allowed to do it as you want BUT the examiner wants to see good all round checks for the duration of the reverse

You can 'palm the wheel' as long as you have full control

You B+E instructor will explain and help you through everything including the reverse and the un/couple as well as what is expected on the road drive


If you can get plenty of reversing practice with a box type trailer before training then well done - just remember to have insurance for a B+E learner, L plates and a supervising driver who has held a B+E licence for more than 3 years

 

[Rudey]

Ah thank you very much ROG. I've been fortunate enough to have a fair amount of towing and reversing experience already, so the lessons will literally be to tidy me up and prepare me for test standard. I am absolutely bricking it to be blunt as ever! I am worried my nerves will get the better of me.... eeeeep! I could do with a good

 

[Wigglypigs]

There is a new girl at our yard who is adament that she can tow a large cob in a IW 510 with a freelander on a 'B' licence! She does, on occasion, take another horse too!
I'm certain that her vechicle is unsuitable for towing that trailer/horse combination regardless of the fact that she only has a 'B' licence. Help!

 

[perfect11s]

There is a new girl at our yard who is adament that she can tow a large cob in a IW 510 with a freelander on a 'B' licence! She does, on occasion, take another horse too!
I'm certain that her vechicle is unsuitable for towing that trailer/horse combination regardless of the fact that she only has a 'B' licence. Help!

99.9% sure this is illegal , due to the b licence if she is stopped they could impound the vehicle/trailer !!!! and the other thing is her insurance will be invalid so same again plus woundent get payed out if she has an accident, so it is stupid thing to do and could end in loss of licence and a big fine...

 

[ROG]

There is a new girl at our yard who is adament that she can tow a large cob in a IW 510 with a freelander on a 'B' licence! She does, on occasion, take another horse too!
I'm certain that her vechicle is unsuitable for towing that trailer/horse combination regardless of the fact that she only has a 'B' licence. Help!

There are many freelanders so I'll pick one at random

1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1457
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = 2040
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 1800
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 1000

ILLEGAL on a B licence

Reasons -
5 must not be more than 2
3 plus 5 is more than 3500

==========================
Using a B+E licence only 800 can be loaded onto the trailer so that it is not more than the 1800 towing capacity so 2 horses would both have to be small ones

CAVEAT - not certain I have the correct freelander weights as there are loads of models!

 

[brown tack]

Rog would it legal on a b licsence to tow with a freelander 4 door descile and a single Ifor trailer

Can't find the weights of the freelander sorry

Ta

 

[ROG]

Rog would it legal on a b licsence to tow with a freelander 4 door descile and a single Ifor trailer

Can't find the weights of the freelander sorry

Ta

http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/cars/specs/land-rover-freelander-specifications-259/
which is it?

What is the product code for the ifor trailer - ie HB505 etc ??

 

[Wigglypigs]

I have now spent over 2 hours trying to get my head round it all in order to be able to discuss the legalities. I'm also tempted to sit my B+E now so that I can tow myself rather than rely on my OH

 

[ROG]

I have now spent over 2 hours trying to get my head round it all in order to be able to discuss the legalities. I'm also tempted to sit my B+E now so that I can tow myself rather than rely on my OH

I can help you

I now know that you do not have B+E or C1 so that is the starting point.

You do have B+E and C1 and/or C provisional

Your OH, if they have full B+E for at least 3 years (pre 97 is ok) can sit next to you when towing with L plates on

You MIGHT be able to tow with your current set up but I need some info
What towing vehicle do you have? - year make & model please
What trailer do you have? - the KG numbers on the plate will help but if not then the make and model of the trailer please