welfare/abandonment advice?

[BigGingerMare]

Any advice please? there are four of us on a yard with 6 horses/ponies in total. Three of us rub along quite happily, horses/ponies all fine. The other 2 ponies belong to the fourth person, who is frankly neglecting them. They are in a field which is out of sight from the yard and the road, so you have to walk down to get to them. Over the summer my horses were sharing their field (with permission, I should add!) so i was checking on everyone, doing waters etc. She didn't come down and see them more than once in a blue moon. In late Sep/early Oct, I moved my guys out of the field, told her I was doing that and this meant I would not be checking on hers any more. Her response was that that was fine, and she was checking on them late evenings anyway (I very much doubt this, but hey ...) I filled the (very big) water containers and left them to it. Since then I don't think she has been down there once. I go down every few days because I can't bear the thought of the ponies being injured/ill and no one finding out. They have water (since it hasn't stopped raining since October!) but it's pretty disgusting now, and goodness knows what parasites are in it. Their feet are overgrown and they are rapidly becoming feral - the last time I know they were definitely brought in, handled and checked over was July. The field is big enough for them to live out, and they are the types who can, but - as we have tried to explain - there's a difference between living out and being dumped in a field.
It happened similarly last winter - i ended up getting the ponies in as one of them was covered in rainscald - and they then stayed in their un-mucked-out stables for a week with the rest of us giving them hay until we got fed up and turned them out again.
The yard owner is totally not horsey, and very hands off, which suits us down to the ground (mostly!). He's also recovering from a recent heart operation and really doesn't want stress or hassle right now. She has, apparently, finally paid him up to date for the ponies rent.
Best course of action for us / the yard owner? I have spoken to the ponies owner and she tells me she is checking on them regularly. Now either she can levitate over a muddy gateway without leaving footprints, and always ties the gate up the exact same way that I do, OR she's talking bu*****t. When does it become an issue for reporting for welfare? Is it technically a welfare problem? They have grass (ish) and water (ish) and there is natural shelter in the field. However they are not being checked (other than by me) and it's doing my head in; I don't want the responsibility of someone elses ponies and I hate seeing them stuck in a field with no contact with anyone other than each other, with overgrown feet, disgusting water troughs, no hay or supplementary feed even in the worst of weathers, becoming more and more feral and charging to the gateway every time they see someone (me!) coming in the hope that I have food for them that isn't wet grass.

 

[SEL]

I found the BHS the best for an is it / isn't it conversation. They did visit (with absent landowner's permission) & I know spoke to the owner because they turned up after weeks of no show

Different scenario because it was summer but pony was starting to look very laminitic

 

[scats]

My friend recently reported a neglected pony to the BHS, who sent some officers from WHW out.

 

[BigGingerMare]

thanks - i may try and have a conversation with the BHS, then. Presumably if they think there is an issue, they would go to the owner of the ponies rather than the landowner?

 

[Melody Grey]

Might be worth talking to the yard/ landowner. I believe in law they are responsible for the welfare of livestock on their premises even if they don’t own it. They may show more
Of an interest knowing this?

 

[Highmileagecob]

Have a chat with HAPPA. They usually have officers in the area who will do a couple of field checks and contact the owner if necessary. They will need proof that the land owner has made it clear to the owners in writing the minimum standard of care that is required on the yard eg daily visit in summer and twice daily visit in winter, with clean water and food provided. Apparently welfare and neglect are two different areas. Having had a very similar conversation with HAPPA over a stabled pony on our yard, unless bodily condition starts to be affected, then it's not a welfare issue - and no one will walk away and leave ponies not fed or watered...... Neat way of owner ducking responsibility.

 

[meleeka]

I very much doubt any authorities would consider them a welfare issue, yet. If she’s paid rent and they have water I don’t think they are classed as abandoned. You might have to bide your time until their condition starts dropping. How are their feet? If you can get photos of long hooves or rain rot that will help your cause.

 

[dorsetladette]

thanks - i may try and have a conversation with the BHS, then. Presumably if they think there is an issue, they would go to the owner of the ponies rather than the landowner?

ultimately (unfortunately) the land owner is responsible. So he needs to be aware and given opportunity to do something before you get authorities involved.

Do you know the (ponies) owners circumstances?

I only ask (and slightly playing devils advocate) as I've had a similar situation. I was helping a lady with her horses and she and I had a disagreement about the management of one of her ponies. I stepped away and separated our horses, but remained friends. unbeknown to me she started getting messages from other people (several rented fields all together) telling her that her ponies needed this that and the other. She struggled to deal with this and took it as bullying. Started checking her ponies at 5am and 8pm when she knew no one was around, which resulted in her being accused of not attending. One person even started treating the mud fever on her horses leg with out permission. horse had horrid reaction to the stuff being put on (potentially 2 ointments mixed as owner was treating too). this all got really out of hand (unbeknown to me as she never mentioned it) and the RSCPA were called. They visited and gave all a clean bill of health apart from the little one who was a bit lami (managed well when no outside interference). It turned out the 'helpful' person had also been feeding the ponies, so lami pony was given 2 feeds a day plus grass, hay (from owner) and haylage (from 'helpful person') - pony loved it but it caused her issues.
Owner and I shared a feed room so I knew she was coming up but just assumed she was missing my visits due to us not seeing eye to eye. We left each other notes and text still so saw no issue. The owner had VERY recently lost her husband and the unwanted texts were just to much for her so she hide from the situation and any confrontation. The 'helpful' people made there own opinions based on what they thought they saw.

I just wanted to say - not everything is black and white. Not that I condone neglect at all!

 

[Pedantic]

I think everyone in this game who has a horse/s on a yard, has unfortunately experienced this scenario, does my head in, I have always said, there are a lot worse thing's for an animal than being PTS, these type of people are an absolute pain, for lying, not looking after "their" animals, not paying their bills, not doing their share of Field/yard chores etc, as others said, land owner is liable for welfare, whether they like it or not, the law doesn't change to suit interest or health, might be worth letting them know this.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

As mentioned above, YO is ultimately responsible.
That said, talk to BHS or WHW they dont just deal with welfare problems but also an officer can come out to discuss prevention of welfare issues. Def worth a chat.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Might be worth talking to the yard/ landowner. I believe in law they are responsible for the welfare of livestock on their premises even if they don’t own it. They may show more
Of an interest knowing this?

^^^ Yep the landowner is responsible for the welfare of ANY animals on their land be it horses, stock or whatever. At the end of the day if the RSPCA or anyone else comes calling, and there is an animal that is giving cause for concern on your land, YOU are the name they put on the forms........ end of.

Personally I would do as others have suggested and go the BHS/WHW route. WHW were very helpful a good few years ago now when I reported some horses I'd seen in a field looking a bit poor.

 

[BigGingerMare]

ultimately (unfortunately) the land owner is responsible. So he needs to be aware and given opportunity to do something before you get authorities involved.

Do you know the (ponies) owners circumstances?

I only ask (and slightly playing devils advocate) as I've had a similar situation. I was helping a lady with her horses and she and I had a disagreement about the management of one of her ponies. I stepped away and separated our horses, but remained friends. unbeknown to me she started getting messages from other people (several rented fields all together) telling her that her ponies needed this that and the other. She struggled to deal with this and took it as bullying. Started checking her ponies at 5am and 8pm when she knew no one was around, which resulted in her being accused of not attending. One person even started treating the mud fever on her horses leg with out permission. horse had horrid reaction to the stuff being put on (potentially 2 ointments mixed as owner was treating too). this all got really out of hand (unbeknown to me as she never mentioned it) and the RSCPA were called. They visited and gave all a clean bill of health apart from the little one who was a bit lami (managed well when no outside interference). It turned out the 'helpful' person had also been feeding the ponies, so lami pony was given 2 feeds a day plus grass, hay (from owner) and haylage (from 'helpful person') - pony loved it but it caused her issues.
Owner and I shared a feed room so I knew she was coming up but just assumed she was missing my visits due to us not seeing eye to eye. We left each other notes and text still so saw no issue. The owner had VERY recently lost her husband and the unwanted texts were just to much for her so she hide from the situation and any confrontation. The 'helpful' people made there own opinions based on what they thought they saw.

I just wanted to say - not everything is black and white. Not that I condone neglect at all!

valid points. TBF I know that she had a whole heap of personal issues over the last year or so, which is one of the reasons why I asked her if she wanted me to check her ponies/do waters etc . I have, on several separate occasions, said that if she needs help with them, just to let me know. I don't know what her circumstances are currently, but I would give very good odds that she hasn't been to see the ponies. On the odd occasion that I have messaged over the last few months it's always "I'm coming up tomorrow to do x,y or z" but the jobs are simply never done. I don't want to add to any ongoing issues (if there still are any) but equally I don't want her ponies to bear the brunt of it.

 

[Jenko109]

If these animals have water, currently adequate grazing and they aren't in poor condition then I don't really see much of a problem tbh.

Feet being a bit long is not ideal but plenty of people rough horses off over the winter and let them go a bit feral.

She may well just be hopping the gate and popping them a quick look.

 

[Trouper]

Is there any way you can get actual evidence that they are not being checked on? Camera? I know it would be classed a spying but I think you will be on thin ice if you can't actually prove that she has not been to check on them over a period of several days.

Is this something you could set up on behalf of the YO, if he is not well at the moment, so that he can discharge his responsibility to ensure that animals on his premises are being properly looked after? When you have evidence then you can approach the welfare organisations.

 

[PeterNatt]

I would contact the BHS H.Q's Welfare Department and ask them to send one of their voluteer welfare officers to take a look at the horses and have a chat with the owner and advise them of their obligations. They should be checking on their horses at least once a day if not twice so if they are not chcking on them then this is a welfare issue. https://www.bhs.org.uk/horse-care-and-welfare/report-a-welfare-concern/

 

[P.forpony]

Unfortunately in a case of true neglect, 2 horses in a field next to my house, feet so long they were turning up and horribly cracked. Mid summer and absolutely no water for weeks, there wasn't even a trough in the field...
The RSPCA said that because I was putting buckets in and filling them from my garden hose, there was no risk to life of the animals so no cause for them to take action.

I would apparently have had to stop watering them until one collapsed before they would remove them.

 

[BigGingerMare]

thanks for all your thoughts, folks, much appreciated

 

[BigGingerMare]

Is there any way you can get actual evidence that they are not being checked on? Camera? I know it would be classed a spying but I think you will be on thin ice if you can't actually prove that she has not been to check on them over a period of several days.

Is this something you could set up on behalf of the YO, if he is not well at the moment, so that he can discharge his responsibility to ensure that animals on his premises are being properly looked after? When you have evidence then you can approach the welfare organisations.

interesting! I hadn't even thought - there is CCTV covering the driveway ...

 

[Kaylum]

The welfare act is not fit for purpose unfortunately. But yes contact the BHS for advice or WHW they will try contact the owner by leaving a note for them.

 

[Orangehorse]

The RSPCA won't act if there is feed and water and if it gets really bad.

The BHS welfare officer will have a chat about appropriate care in the hopes of improving things for the ponies rather than waiting until they are a true welfare case.