Welfare issue: WWYD?

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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Oh dear, yet another "WWYD" welfare issue one.

OK........ so am having to be cautious as I don't want to identify where this is, but shall we say that in one of the places where myself and a friend hack, there are three small ponies in a patch of land which is about half an acre just on the edge of the village.

Apparently the ponies are "seen to" twice a day, and given hay. They are rugged, but oft-times the rugs are either falling off and/or they have patches, holes in them etc.

The "field"/area itself, has no grass, it is just a sea of mud basically, there is not a blade of grass which can be seen, and the ponies have been in this place for the whole of the winter and for some years now, apparently.

The fencing is awful......... the ponies have eaten away a lot of the hedge and there are gaps in it, which have been "mended" by either barbed wire or bailer twine.

Apparently someone/some people in the village where the ponies are near to, have told the RSPCA about this, only to be told, "well, we can't/won't do anything: the ponies have water, they have hay, they are seen to twice daily".

It is hard to establish the condition of the ponies accurately, as they've been rugged up, but they probably could do with worming from a very cursory glance anyway.

The woman that owns the ponies, we have seen her once or twice out hacking, she's got a very nice nippy little car which she drives around in and obviously has the money for that!!! (not a judgement here, merely an observation).

Dunno whether WHW would be any different from the RSPCA????

Hate seeing these ponies like this. They're never ridden or worked, have no stimulus whatsoever, and are left to poddle around on a small, badly fenced area with no grazing whatsoever, and no chance to go to an alternative field either apparently. If the stupid numpty girl who owns them can't be bothered, then IMO then she could at least do the decent thing by them and make the appropriate decision??? OMG this sort of thing makes me SOOOOO bleddy angry.

So WWYD folks; WHW??? In all truth I don't think I can bear to go on riding past their field and continue to ignore TBH.
 
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If it was me i would go and take the rugs off, then see what their condition score is, it is also hotter now so proably dont need the rugs. Yes it would be interfering but if they look okay under the rugs then they are eating something, so that would answer your concern and if they were poor then you could call the charities concerned and if the owner wanted to sue me for taking their rugs off then i would say go for it. Might make the owner look up and realise folk are watching. Could always say prove i took the rugs off. Wouldnt stand up in court without witnesses.
 
So ponies are seen, fed, watered and (probably unnecessarily, since they're natives) rugged. Move on. They're not yours. If we all said what we think every time we see a horse, (fat, thin, over-rugged, badly ridden, overbitted) the world would not be a happier place, as we are all entitled to an opinion, but not obliged to voice it. How are you able to judge their worm status from a 'cursory glance'? - really, I'm impressed.

You clearly have lots of energy, and a strong desire to do some good. I'd go volunteer at the local RDA, if I were you.
 
My thoughts would be try and speak to the owner before reporting. The ponies may be laminitic so not allowed grass? They could be elderly and in need of rugs? The fencing issue I cant really say but as long as the ponies aren't able to get out anywhere, I dont really see the problem. If they are being hayed, watered and check daily I doubt any of the charities will be interested.

Over winter my pony was wearing a rug that my other pony trashed almost weekly, so most days he had a gaping hole with a load of stuffing hanging out or it had been pulled to one side. He wasn't neglected, but horses will be horses.

My last pony had Lami and was kept how you describe (with better fencing) the amount of busy bodies I had to tell about why I kept her like that made me lose the will to live. I would have been mortified if I had been reported for doing the best for my pony.
 
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How many times do we read on here about small ponies on restricted grazing and interfering none horsey people objecting? To suggest that the OP go and take the rugs off is pretty astonishing IMO. The ponies are seen twice a day, have water and hay, ok so no grass, maybe not ideal, but they have freedom to associate with each other and the stimulous of equine company. They do not need to be ridden. Just think of the number of horses kept in stables for 23 hours each day, with no opportunity to socialise, no turnout, just either ridden of put on a horse walker!
 
you have seen her out hacking? what she on one of the ponies from the field?

you can see the ponies could probably do with worming, but not what their weight is like?

unless the ponies are rugged from nose to tail their necks will be visible so you could tell if they were very poor.

lots of apparently stuff going on-hearsay.

my mare has holes and patches in her rugs, she is also in a bald paddock, she is seen to twice a day-I really don't see what the problem is.

if someone went in and removed my mares rug I would be seething, but if they came and spoke to me politely I would be more than happy to speak to them about my horses care.

they have stimulation they are kept as a small herd, they are outdoors able to move around, they have water, they have hay twice per day-they fencing does not sound great and possibly they are over rugged, but from what you say it is preferable to all the horses that stand in a stable 23hrs per day for 6 months of the year because no-one wants muddy fields.
 
Wow, that's a tricky one. Is there any way that you could get to know a bit more about the owner? I don't mean in a devious kind of way, but it could be that she is doing the best that she can with her visits and hay. These days not everyone can give their horses everything they deserve and she may be struggling to keep them and a roof over her own head, the car may not even be hers! If that is the case then getting the welfare people to go after her may not be the best route forward unless they can step in and help with fencing, re-seeding costs, alternative fields, etc.

Or, of course, she may not know any better, in which case a helpful word from a welfare authority could bring her to her senses.

Then there's the third alternative in which she does know that what she is doing is not quite right, has the funds and is not utilising them, in which case a very stern, careful word from the welfare people is needed. Trouble is, she is providing the basics, which is a field (OK not a good one) food in the form of hay, checks twice daily and water so the welfare people may not be able to do an awful lot other than have a word if a few people report her.

I think you need to find out more, before going all guns blazing on this one.
 
3OldPonies said:
Wow, that's a tricky one. Is there any way that you could get to know a bit more about the owner? I don't mean in a devious kind of way, but it could be that she is doing the best that she can with her visits and hay. These days not everyone can give their horses everything they deserve and she may be struggling to keep them and a roof over her own head, the car may not even be hers! If that is the case then getting the welfare people to go after her may not be the best route forward unless they can step in and help with fencing, re-seeding costs, alternative fields, etc.

Or, of course, she may not know any better, in which case a helpful word from a welfare authority could bring her to her senses.

Then there's the third alternative in which she does know that what she is doing is not quite right, has the funds and is not utilising them, in which case a very stern, careful word from the welfare people is needed. Trouble is, she is providing the basics, which is a field (OK not a good one) food in the form of hay, checks twice daily and water so the welfare people may not be able to do an awful lot other than have a word if a few people report her.

I think you need to find out more, before going all guns blazing on this one.
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Sorry I fail to see what she is doing wrong.....the only possible thing would be a bit of grass would be nice for them and slightly more acreage. But we don't live in an ideal world....
 
3OldPonies said:
Then there's the third alternative in which she does know that what she is doing is not quite right, has the funds and is not utilising them, in which case a very stern, careful word from the welfare people is needed. Trouble is, she is providing the basics, which is a field (OK not a good one) food in the form of hay, checks twice daily and water so the welfare people may not be able to do an awful lot other than have a word if a few people report her.
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the field may be perfect for what is in it? nothing wrong with hay and hay only for most horses and ponies not in work, twice daily checks-what is wrong with that?
these ponies may have everything they deserve and need
 
twiggy2 said:
you have seen her out hacking? what she on one of the ponies from the field?
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It was the OP who was hacking.

We have a similar situation locally although with TBs - I think there is a line between how we would like to keep horses ourselves and neglect/welfare situation.
 
So, these ponies have
- company
- rugs (albeit patched ones)
- food (hay)
- water

And the 'welfare' issues are
- poor grazing, which might actually benefit many lami-prone ponies
- you don't know if they are wormed (if they aren't a have a high worm burden I agree this isn't great)
- poor fencing which, unless they are likely to get out, could be said of many livery yards
- lack of work, which very few equines with company will see as an issue!

You say they are checked twice per day which is more than some on here do.

So, TBH, I'm not sure what the /serious/ welfare concern is. That isn't to say there isn't one, just that based on your post, I don't understand what it is. Perhaps the RSPCA also felt this?

I certainly wouldn't recommend trespass and interfering with other's equines based on so little.
 
3OldPonies said:
Wow, that's a tricky one. Is there any way that you could get to know a bit more about the owner? I don't mean in a devious kind of way, but it could be that she is doing the best that she can with her visits and hay. These days not everyone can give their horses everything they deserve and she may be struggling to keep them and a roof over her own head, the car may not even be hers! If that is the case then getting the welfare people to go after her may not be the best route forward unless they can step in and help with fencing, re-seeding costs, alternative fields, etc.

Or, of course, she may not know any better, in which case a helpful word from a welfare authority could bring her to her senses.

Then there's the third alternative in which she does know that what she is doing is not quite right, has the funds and is not utilising them, in which case a very stern, careful word from the welfare people is needed. Trouble is, she is providing the basics, which is a field (OK not a good one) food in the form of hay, checks twice daily and water so the welfare people may not be able to do an awful lot other than have a word if a few people report her.

I think you need to find out more, before going all guns blazing on this one.
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and then there's the fourth alternative - she may be keeping the ponies in exactly the manner they need for their own health and welfare and be rightfully pee'd off at someone interfering.
 
I agree with most of the others, it doesn't sound like there is a real welfare case here

The OP however is pretty sound knowledge-wise and blessed with a lot of common sense so maybe its just the way its coming across to those of us who cannot see the situation for ourselves?
 
OK........ thank you for the responses. Someone here said it very well, that its possible to keep horses in basically what amounts to "borderline" conditions.

To the well-meaning, but very caustic person who suggests I "go volunteer for the local RDA"........ thank you for your sarcasm, but you are not looking at the situation and seeing what is happening. If YOUR horses were in a similar situation, would you be happy? I think not. But like I say, it is easy to judge something without being sure of the facts............

So people like me, "well meaning and well intentioned" sit back and do nothing............ and the situation goes from bad to worse and no-one cares. Well thankfully some local people, I don't know who they are but they are obviously people who care about animals, and whilst they may not know anything about horses then they ARE concerned about the situation generally.

Meanwhile...... I am sorry, genuinely sorry, that I mentioned it on here. I should have known that I would be called names, treated with sarcasm, and treated as a total numpty. I have been dealing with horses since I was seven years old and am now over 50. I am a YO, not that that means anything necessarily, but I don't have any axe to grind. I've had laminitics and know pretty well what sort of grazing is required for them; so please no-one patronise me on that score. OK so we all know that sometimes due to financial constraints etc we are not able to keep our horses in racing-yard standard accommodation, but I am very concerned for these ponies and the stupidest thing I did was to come on here and express it. Unfortunately I am not able to take photo's etc of either the ponies or the location, and NO I am NOT going to go along and start interfering with someone else's rugging arrangements and/or enter someone else's field. I wouldn't appreciate it myself and I certainly won't be doing that to someone else. There are statutory bodies that are entitled to enter other people's land/property, and I am not one of them!

But whatever, OK so let these poor ponies suffer; let the stupid uncaring selfish little numpty cow that "owns" them treat them like this, let them be unhappy for the rest of their miserable lives - if the advice on here is to be followed!!!

Really this forum makes me want to puke if I'm honest. Anyone that comes on here and raises any concern or even asks a genuine question is treated to the full-scale HHO interrogation, character-assasination, and bullying.

The only question I will ask, in parting, is that, if YOU had sold your much-loved pony to a woman like this, and it was kept in the conditions that I have outlined, would YOU be happy???? Ball in your court.
 
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I'd keep an eye to see what they look like once their rugs are off and if all appeared well I'd keep out of it. I wouldn't say there is any real welfare issue with the way the ponies are kept and we all have our own standards by which to live. If I'm honest, I look at some photos on here from posters and see animals up to their eyes in mud and cringe just a little but that's because my fields are not muddy and it's not how I'm used to seeing my horses live ... however, I do understand that this is just the way it is in certain places and people are doing the best they can and the horses don't seem to suffer for it. I certainly wouldn't consider interfering in any way, nor would I contact any welfare organisation providing the horses/ponies are being cared for, which these ponies sound like they are.
 
90% certain I know which horses you're talking about-I drive past them twice a day and they've always looked fine. They might not be kept how you would keep them, but they're fed, watered and checked on. Don't see that there's an awful lot you can complain about.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
But whatever, OK so let these poor ponies suffer; let the stupid uncaring selfish little numpty cow that "owns" them treat them like this, let them be unhappy for the rest of their miserable lives - if the advice on here is to be followed!!!


The only question I will ask, in parting, is that, if YOU had sold your much-loved pony to a woman like this, and it was kept in the conditions that I have outlined, would YOU be happy???? Ball in your court.
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How are they suffering??? Nothing you have said says they are suffering! If they are and we are missing it please explain...

Also why is she a selfish numpty cow??

I have to say the fact that they are checked twice a day and have hay and have rugs on would not lead me to think she is the above...
 
I can think of a well known horse 'charity' that keeps it's horses like this - the only difference is that the fencing is better.

A horse if in need of the RSPCA/WHW will look like it even with a rug on. If they are being hayed and watered, then its not really a welfare case, just that the ponies are not being kept how you would like.
 
Our two ponies are in a bare paddock unless its winter, then they go out with the rest of the herd, its so they hopefully don't get laminitis. They are also fed hay. Our natives are also rugged, as the field shelter is in the wettest part of the field (un-horsey field owners) so they cant use it in winter, in fact all ours were rugged for that reason. I am trying to say they might have a reason for keeping the ponies the way they do. The only way to know for sure is to talk to the owner.
Once, many years ago someone accused us of being cruel, we let our young cob out in the snow without a "coat" while our other horse had one! The other horse was not as hardy, we pointed out that the cob had a layer of snow on him and as it hadn't melted he must be really well insulated by his very thick coat. Always a good idea to ask WHY its done that way! Then if there is a real welfare issue, call a dedicated equine rescue.
 
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My natives are on a bare patch at the moment to ward off Lammi and I'm sure as hell not risking putting them through excrutiating pain of Lammi just to keep no-brain numptys happy
 
OP - you asked our opinions and we gave it - please don't rant at us. You are obviously are very experienced, as are probably a good portion of correspondents on this board; however, your initial post made it sound very much like a 'I don't like how they're keeping their ponies' message - or that's how it seemed to me anyway and that's why I made the comment I did about finding out more about the circumstances surrounding why the ponies are being kept in such a way. Possibly others picked up something similar, and others wanted to find out more about the situation by a direct route of entering the field and taking a closer look.

But whatever our responses so far, your rant seems to imply that the situation is one of neglect which doesn't quite add up as the owner is visiting twice a day, providing food and water and has provided protection from the elements in rugs.

If you are convinced that the ponies are suffering, and I'm not convinced they are, then contact WHW, pester the RSPCA, contact the BHS welfare dept, or Redwings or some other charity concerned with horse welfare - or all of them if you wish and see what they have to say on the matter. You never know if you keep at them, maybe a welfare officer will go and take a look and make a decision. Or you could even talk to the owner if you could find out when she makes her visits and ask her about why she is keeping them as she is.
 
The BHS welfare person would be my first thought. They are experienced horse owners and can assess the difference between "cruelty" and "inapprorpriate management." They offer advice to owners. Some are vets, police people, etc and have lots of experience. Contact the BHS at Stoneleigh and they will forward the query to the nearest welfare officer.
 
Have you tried approaching the lady? Sounds an ideal setup for native laminitics tbh apart from the fencing, but hey ho everyones different. Thinking about your comment about how would we feel if they used to belong to us? Well, thinking about the tubsters i've had over the years, i'd be grateful they had:

1: hay and water
2:rugged if inadequate shelter
3: company.

Speak to the lady about your concerns :)
 
I know they may look uncared for in your opinion but like others have said they are in a paddock, no matter how little grass and they have food and water. Mine winter out in groups mainly with no rugs, hay and have an open barn, by the end of winter they are a straggly mess, but they are wormed have their feet trimmed and are healthy. A women had two of them on loan for last winter, they were brushed , fussed and fed at least twice a day, they looked lovely but I found out she had lost more than one animal to laminitis and I was starting to get concerned they would end up off their feet.
I also rent two fields for a token rent, the fencing on which is creative, mainly made up of old pallets, cut branches and lined with electric fencing but the animals are fed, watered and well cared for but one who is 28 looks a mess. I realise to an outsider he may look a stiff, moulting shaggy mess but because I am known in the village and people know that they are checked twice a day I have yet to receive a note but it would not surprise me if I did.
I think its really interesting the variety of attitudes we have. I was at a horse show where a child was being walked about on a Shetland pony with a club foot which was obviously a deformity so it had a lame gait. The pony looked in no pain, willing,well cared for and was only being asked to walk. My friend was appalled that it was being ridden and they should be reported, my attitude was being a Shetland it would soon get rid of a child if it was unhappy and if it was a disabled person it would be encouraged to take part despite a disability.
 
Have a word with the Bhs welfare officer for the area .
They may well know the ponies already .
IBH it's not illegal for horses to have boring lives with not enough exercise it happens everywhere .
If their fed watered and checked and if the owner is not interested in advice I am not sure what the RSPCA etc can be expected to do .
It would be good to see them without rugs but if the owners not interested in advice there's not a lot you can do.
 
Well if the charities wont help, and you cant see through the rugs, you might as well have a look underneath and see if you are worrying about nothing. I would rather someone spoke to me about my shetty being possibly overweight than just keeping quiet, sometimes we dont see things because we look at it everyday, whilst a new set of eyes sees more clearly.

Some might be right cheesed off if someone took their ponies rugs off, but then you wouldnt be in a situation where your ponies welfare was being discussed on a forum, would you now. Your ponies wouldnt be kept in the state they are being kept in, they would be unrugged in a secure field with a bit of grass and certainly evidence of being cared for. There is a pair of step ladders at BnQ
 
Obviously no one in the right mind would go into someone elses field and just remove rugs but if you are concerned about a welfare case and no one is listening then you have to do some investigating yourself, this can be done by calling pony over to the fence and lifting the front of the rug and seeing what lies underneath, just like if the pony was stuck in the fencing would you just walk on by and leave it, no you would investigate and help where you can.

I keep forgetting everytime one makes a post on this forum it has to be outlined in laymans terms for everyone to understand otherwise we are all just considered idiots who go about doing the most awful things, obviously one would speak to the owner first etc etc, but I guessed everyone knew that already and I didnt have to explain that part first.
 
I had someone call the WHW out to two of mine, years ago. They were in a dirt paddock with haynets. Why? Because one of them's metabolism/insulin sensitivity had lost the plot slightly and even the tiniest bit of grazing was giving her lami. The other was her native best friend. The two of them were very happy, even though the paddock was small, and in time the first one's health improved. She's now out 24/7 on poor but adequate grazing, very happily being the boss of the herd once more. It took two years to get her right though. The bare paddock with soaked hay was MUCH better than being stabled 24/7 which was the alternative. She was ridden, but you'd easily never know that if you hadn't seen us at the right time of day. The WHW people came out and thought our arrangement was fantastic for a lami prone horse. Then they went away again, quite satisfied with what they had seen.

If you call them, they can make their own assessment. Either the ponies are fine, and kept that way for a reason, or they're not.
 
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