Western horse are they lame ?

[Mary3050]

Hi Guys,

This may just be a lack of education on my part so feel free to educate me.

I have an in law introduce me to family from America . They started talking about there horse. Then added me on Facebook to send some videos . Wow I was shocked they all looked lame on the hind dranging the back legs not pushing forward. Apparently they are western/trial horse and they lope or something . I looked on YouTube and they all look the same . They also ride there two year olds stating they are built this way ? Is this normal are they sound are they just trained to move like that .

Get even better as they have told all there “barn” they own the yard and have livery’s I think . about there relation in England who rides “English” in dressage and showing . Now I am inundated with young girls sending me there “English-riding”, all the horse look lame and the riders I am so confused at what they are doing . Said person has mentioned to the in laws how I should come over to the states and teach at his barn as this would make the barn look a better standard with trainers from the UK . My in laws now think it’s a great idea and keep pushing this .

Can someone explain western riding to me because I feel so confused ? and slight concerned for the horses

 

[ester]

western pleasure?

 

[cobgoblin]

Did they move like this video of the lope?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...&ru=/videos/search?q=western+lope&FORM=HDRSC3

This guy has an awful squeaky saddle and to english eyes the horse's movement looks awful, but I don't think it means they are lame.

 

[Abacus]

I think go for it, it would be fascinating! I watched a bit of that clip and found it amazing - I don’t think I have seen that before. Clearly a well trained horse - his movement is rhythmic and regular and he responds instantly. Looks very comfortable to ride. But I don’t think you could take that horse and ride him English-style without really confusing the poor creature.

 

[ycbm]

Did they move like this video of the lope?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=western+lope&&view=detail&mid=7ECD3D53A8A600BE71787ECD3D53A8A600BE7178&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=western+lope&FORM=HDRSC3

This guy has an awful squeaky saddle and to english eyes the horse's movement looks awful, but I don't think it means they are lame.

?

 

[Lois Lame]

Did they move like this video of the lope?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=western+lope&&view=detail&mid=7ECD3D53A8A600BE71787ECD3D53A8A600BE7178&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=western+lope&FORM=HDRSC3

This guy has an awful squeaky saddle and to english eyes the horse's movement looks awful, but I don't think it means they are lame.

But why would anyone do that to a horse?

 

[Ratface]

Lois Lame. I watched that video. I found it deeply depressing.

 

[meleeka]

I’d also like to know how someone would train a horse to be like that??

 

[sbloom]

I can only imagine what it does to the horse's body over time.

 

[Barton Bounty]

The horse looks pretty well muscled and in good condition considering the cr*p riding.

 

[ycbm]

The horse looks pretty well muscled and in good condition considering the cr*p riding.

It's not crap riding, it's very skilled to achieve that, but why the hell would you want to train a horse to move like it's crippled?

The strain on that poor creature's back is immense.
.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

The whole point of a lope is to cover ground at a pace that is comfortable for horse and rider, used when people had big distances to cover. The lope shown may be comfortable for the rider but is hard work for the horse and quite frankly I have had horses that could walk faster than that. You wouldn't want to travel miles like that.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s like everything that gets moved from utility to show ,it’s a dangerous process that more often than not takes the useful and sensible and elevates it to the grotesque .
The lope helped people who more often than not could not really ride , ride for very long distances was useful .

 

[Quigleyandme]

Hideous. I admire his horsemanship but it just looks ghastly.

 

[Honey08]

Very strange. His seat and position were actually pretty light and wonderful, he is clearly a very good rider. But the lope just looks ugly and uncomfortable for the horse. The horse did look lame until he changed direction and it looked identical on the other rein. Yet the horse looked well muscled, fit and obviously well trained. Not an altogether nice sight. I hate to say it, but some of it reminded me of high level dressage in some way (not always nice to watch).

 

[twiggy2]

The video is no longer avaliable or it isn't for me

 

[TotalMadgeness]

I can't really comment on the lope but I recently watched a Carl Hester masterclass and when I was watching one of the horses doing a collected canter it looked lame to me. Or at least uncomfortable.

 

[ycbm]

Very strange. His seat and position were actually pretty light and wonderful, he is clearly a very good rider. But the lope just looks ugly and uncomfortable for the horse. The horse did look lame until he changed direction and it looked identical on the other rein. Yet the horse looked well muscled, fit and obviously well trained. Not an altogether nice sight. I hate to say it, but some of it reminded me of high level dressage in some way (not always nice to watch).

I thought of writing the same, H08, with the difference being that even top level dressage movements can be seen in glimpses by horses in fields, whereas I don't think I've ever seen a sound horse choose to move that way.
.

 

[SEL]

Yuck!

I've had western lessons both in the US and in NZ and the lope was nowhere near as exaggerated as that thankfully.

I don't think its lame just an odd 4 beat canter type movement.

But in answer to the OP I see a lot of horses trained in western come up on the PSSM pages as 'look at my horse its sound' and you just want to ask them to kick on and get it moving (because then you'll actually be able to see if its sound). But ask for that and you're told you know nothing about western riding, so now I just scroll on by.

I used to ride in the US a fair bit and a well schooled western horse is a pleasure to ride.

 

[Alibear]

So just like English riding, there are a lot of different western disciplines, and the movement varies between disciplines.

The video is a western pleasure lope, which is the most extreme you'll see. There is a lot of pushback in the states, and new classes are being brought in and rule changes to get people to allow the horse to move more forward. However, the old challenge of changing people's long-ingrained approaches applies. I'd suggest it's similar to an English light hack class; the horse is supposed to be easily guided with minimal effort and easy and smooth to ride. You don't see such extremes in the pleasure classes in the UK and Europe. The slow jog and slow lope are still required. The horses can move in a more English manner, too; it's a level of collection. To be able to lope this slow, they have to have their core extremely engaged.

Ranch riding is a new class brought in to counteract pleasure to some degree and is gaining traction. The horse's top line should be level or slightly higher, and it's still asked to lope, not canter.
Horses moving in a lope are not lame the same with the slow western trot; you can pick them up and push them on if you want to.
For example video, the rider is a professional, and it's a public video, so I feel it fair to share.

Find out some more; there are a few western yards in the UK you can have lessons at.

ETA I'm still a newbie to western, having moved across from English in 2016, so I'm absolutely no expert.

 

[Goldenstar]

The horses lack of natural movement in its ears tells me all I need to know

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

The horses lack of natural movement in its ears tells me all I need to know

^^^^ Exactly. Horse doesn't look relaxed, or happy. Not one jot.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Ranch riding is a new class brought in to counteract pleasure to some degree and is gaining traction.

Now that video was a pleasure to watch. That slow canter/lope was something my pony could keep up for miles. I did a 25 mile sponsored ride once and we did all the grassy bits at that pace. His trot was uncomfortable so I preferred the lope.

 

[splashgirl45]

So just like English riding, there are a lot of different western disciplines, and the movement varies between disciplines.

The video is a western pleasure lope, which is the most extreme you'll see. There is a lot of pushback in the states, and new classes are being brought in and rule changes to get people to allow the horse to move more forward. However, the old challenge of changing people's long-ingrained approaches applies. I'd suggest it's similar to an English light hack class; the horse is supposed to be easily guided with minimal effort and easy and smooth to ride. You don't see such extremes in the pleasure classes in the UK and Europe. The slow jog and slow lope are still required. The horses can move in a more English manner, too; it's a level of collection. To be able to lope this slow, they have to have their core extremely engaged.

Ranch riding is a new class brought in to counteract pleasure to some degree and is gaining traction. The horse's top line should be level or slightly higher, and it's still asked to lope, not canter.
Horses moving in a lope are not lame the same with the slow western trot; you can pick them up and push them on if you want to.
For example video, the rider is a professional, and it's a public video, so I feel it fair to share.

Find out some more; there are a few western yards in the UK you can have lessons at.

ETA I'm still a newbie to western, having moved across from English in 2016, so I'm absolutely no expert.

I quite enjoyed that video , thought the horse was moving more naturally although his stride is quite short in comparison to the horses I used to have, I found the earlier videos quite uncomfortable to watch and I scrolled through quite a few and wasn’t impressed ..

 

[Orangehorse]

Well I watched a Western Pleasure class, it was a breed show where there was a class for everything - dressage, showing for several different classifications, jumping and western and I said in a too loud voice that if my horse moved like that I would be worried - but that 4 time beat canter is what they are aiming for.

It looks very strange to English eyes, but this was an english, western rider who took her horse to english western society shows and won, sometimes with a USA judge and sometimes with an english judge (trained and experienced in the USA obviously).

I don't like to watch it, but there is this terrible tendency in the UK to dismiss as "wrong" when things are merely different.
Just because we don't have some breeds/showing/riding in this country, it doesn't mean that for other countries that it is wrong.

So unless you have educated yourself to what is actually going on and why, reserve criticism. Then when you really understand - then you can criticise if it is justified.

 

[sbloom]

So unless you have educated yourself to what is actually going on and why, reserve criticism. Then when you really understand - then you can criticise if it is justified.

I object to top level dressage and will not be convinced by that argument, until we all step up and say dysfunction is damaging, correct movement is all and we should NOT ask the horse to compromise, then this will keep happening. It's about doing the right thing by the horse and I am plenty educated on that.

 

[ycbm]

don't like to watch it, but there is this terrible tendency in the UK to dismiss as "wrong" when things are merely different.
Just because we don't have some breeds/showing/riding in this country, it doesn't mean that for other countries that it is wrong.

So unless you have educated yourself to what is actually going on and why, reserve criticism. Then when you really understand - then you can criticise if it is justified.

That isn't merely different and I have educated myself enough about horse physiology to know that the first video is a deeply dysfunctional way for a horse to move, even without a rider on its back. It goes against the entire way the skeleton is put together and held together.
.

 

[Orangehorse]

I don't know why you object to top level dressage.

You may object to the interpretation of the discipline by some riders and trainers but the object of dressage (not competition) is to train the horse to be able physically to carry the rider easily and have a long sound life. As one trainer called it "physiotherapy for the horse." Whose horses incidentally were in very good physical shape and being ridden well into their 20s.

As for Western riding - there the horse does the work to carry a rider for a long day in the saddle, all day every day and looking after herds of cattle and all the necessary tasks involved in that. So it is trained to make life easier for the rider. But western horses can also have long working lives, read Mark Rashid.

 

[Orangehorse]

That isn't merely different and I have educated myself enough about horse physiology to know that the first video is a deeply dysfunctional way for a horse to move, even without a rider on its back. It goes against the entire way the skeleton is put together and held together.
.

It looks horrible to our eyes, but I wouldn't say that the horse is lame.

 

[sbloom]

I don't know why you object to top level dressage.

You may object to the interpretation of the discipline by some riders and trainers but the object of dressage (not competition) is to train the horse to be able physically to carry the rider easily and have a long sound life. As one trainer called it "physiotherapy for the horse." Whose horses incidentally were in very good physical shape and being ridden well into their 20s.

As for Western riding - there the horse does the work to carry a rider for a long day in the saddle, all day every day and looking after herds of cattle and all the necessary tasks involved in that. So it is trained to make life easier for the rider. But western horses can also have long working lives, read Mark Rashid.

Top level competitive dressage exhibits massive levels of dysfunction, injections are used as prophylactic, there are a lot of things wrong with how we "see" horses and how we think they should move. It is a LONG way from physiotherapy from the horse, which I agree is a thing indeed but it's not in evidence in the competition arena, far from it. See the work of Manolo Mendez, Jean Luc Cornille, Celeste Leilani Lazaris amongst many that I admire and whose work, based around groundwork, is indeed therapeutic for the horse.

Those peanut roller western pleasure horses are unlikely doing the work daily, and if they were they'd be knackered by the age of 8, especially when most of them are started at 2 and carry large riders and saddles. Mark Rashid would not be riding horses in that way I'm quite sure.