Western pleasure??! Whaaaat??

[TPO]

eeek that is horrid forcing it down like that. How could people use things like this in all aspects of training horses, which ever floats your boat in the equestrian world.

Weighted bits aren't a thing IME. Not denying their existence and there are equally horrid bits (& nosebands) used in the UK. Heck there's perfectly reasonable bits used to pull the horses back teeth out while the horses mouth is tied shut in the UK as the rider is two counties behind over a fence ?

A weighted bit isn't as effective as just tying the head down and there are "tie downs" used fairly frequently by certain trainers/riders. A tie down is a piece of tack. I'd hazard its similar to draw reins in so much ad used in the right hands it's a valuable piece of kit but used by the ignorant and/or those looking for a quick fix and it's a cruel piece of kit.

 

[ester]

Cutting horses always surprise me with how chill and then how ‘on it’ they be can be once on a cow.

 

[cauda equina]

It's such a shame that WP is the image that some people have of Western. As so many other people have said, this is not representative of the majority of people/horses within the wider discipline. It certainly doesn't float my boat.

After a lifetime of struggling with English 'handsy' (LOVE that adjective!) riding (which now feels to me like OVERriding) I feel like I found my natural home in Western and genuinely enjoy my lessons. I know I've learnt more about horsemanship in the last three years than the previous thirty- the emphasis on groundwork, riding from the seat, voice cues, neck reining/light hands, self collection'...I could go on. I caught the bug when I went to watch a reining clinic with these incredibly calm horses who can run a blistering pattern, slide to a dead stop and then stand in the arena on a loose rein like nothing happened. The training that goes into creating these horses is phenomenal.

Honestly, I could bang on about it all day. So don't watch those vids and think that's where it's at.

And you can still do it into your nineties, like William Shatner

 

[SBJT]

Cutting horses always surprise me with how chill and then how ‘on it’ they be can be once on a cow.

It is amazing but surprisingly easy to teach and once the horse clues in to what they need to do you can almost visibly see them just release all of their tension.

 

[[153312]]

Always wanted to try western, never been brave enough to ring anyone up about lessons when I have had the funds. :/ One day.

 

[Cragrat]

It is amazing but surprisingly easy to teach and once the horse clues in to what they need to do you can almost visibly see them just release all of their tension.

Any good suggestions on how to learn to teach it? e.g. books etc - no Western Trainers nearby sadly

 

[TPO]

Any good suggestions on how to learn to teach it? e.g. books etc - no Western Trainers nearby sadly

7 Clinics DVD set by Buck Brannaman. Speedy at £130 ish new but can often pick them up 2nd hand individually or a while set (around 80 2nd hand)

Thats probably the closest resource to learning horsemanship when training but it's not specific to reining or cattle work. It's putting all the buttons in to get a responsive horse

Warwick Schiller has a lot of free videos on YouTube and if he rocks your boat there's a subscription service to access lots of other material.

In the UK there's Joe Midgley and he also has a subscription video and distance teaching option via The Good Horemanship Service that he set up on his website.

Bill and Tom Dorrance wrote books about training (I think it was @Clodagh who was selling True Horsemanship through Feel), anything by Ray Hunt book or DVD and Mark Rashid books (I like the Considering the Horse series and Restarting horses).

Mike Bridges and Dave Stewart hold clinics in the UK. They have Facebook pages and you can keep up with horsemanship clinics via Total Horsemanship page on Facebook. Their website also sell books, dvds and training equipment. https://www.facebook.com/totalhorsemanship/

@Ambers Echo has written excellent clinic reports previously about Buck Brannaman and Mark Rashid. @Red-1 has trained with Mark over in the US too (& here?) so if you search on here you'll find a lot of info.

To me the ethos is different in that things are black and white while training, with the correct thing being the easiest option, and they correct mistakes (I think Warwick Schiller refers to this as the Donkey Kong effect. As in when you die in Donkey King you have to start over from the beginning but it doesn't take you as long to progress to where you were, but you always start at the beginning of a level). Ambers Echo wrote about this well after the Buck clinic. "We" let horses away with too much/set our standards too low for what we accept.

Where about are you? There are probably more western trainers around than you'd think and lots travel. If you look up Western Equestrian Society (WES) you'll find your area and what's going on. Between WES and AQHA websites you might find shows and clinics to watch too.

There's also Guy Robertson who is offering cattle work (AE and Red done this too iirc) at Sudbrooke Cattle Company (possibly in Lincolnshire?)

 

[palo1]

7 Clinics DVD set by Buck Brannaman. Speedy at £130 ish new but can often pick them up 2nd hand individually or a while set (around 80 2nd hand)

Thats probably the closest resource to learning horsemanship when training but it's not specific to reining or cattle work. It's putting all the buttons in to get a responsive horse

Warwick Schiller has a lot of free videos on YouTube and if he rocks your boat there's a subscription service to access lots of other material.

In the UK there's Joe Midgley and he also has a subscription video and distance teaching option via The Good Horemanship Service that he set up on his website.

Bill and Tom Dorrance wrote books about training (I think it was @Clodagh who was selling True Horsemanship through Feel), anything by Ray Hunt book or DVD and Mark Rashid books (I like the Considering the Horse series and Restarting horses).

Mike Bridges and Dave Stewart hold clinics in the UK. They have Facebook pages and you can keep up with horsemanship clinics via Total Horsemanship page on Facebook. Their website also sell books, dvds and training equipment. https://www.facebook.com/totalhorsemanship/

@Ambers Echo has written excellent clinic reports previously about Buck Brannaman and Mark Rashid. @Red-1 has trained with Mark over in the US too (& here?) so if you search on here you'll find a lot of info.

To me the ethos is different in that things are black and white while training, with the correct thing being the easiest option, and they correct mistakes (I think Warwick Schiller refers to this as the Donkey Kong effect. As in when you die in Donkey King you have to start over from the beginning but it doesn't take you as long to progress to where you were, but you always start at the beginning of a level). Ambers Echo wrote about this well after the Buck clinic. "We" let horses away with too much/set our standards too low for what we accept.

Where about are you? There are probably more western trainers around than you'd think and lots travel. If you look up Western Equestrian Society (WES) you'll find your area and what's going on. Between WES and AQHA websites you might find shows and clinics to watch too.

There's also Guy Robertson who is offering cattle work (AE and Red done this too iirc) at Sudbrooke Cattle Company (possibly in Lincolnshire?)

If there is one book that I would wish to gift to any horse person it would be Bill Dorrance's 'True Horsemanship Through Feel.' I love many writers and perspectives on horsemanship but there is a directness and simplicity that Bill Dorrance had which is wonderful. I didn't 'get' it at all when I first read the book tbh. It was so....'American'!! But I kept dipping in and out and one day realised how brilliant it was. You have to think about what the text is telling you but it is pure gold really. I wouldn't sell or give my copy away willingly but I wish more people would and could read it.

 

[TPO]

If there is one book that I would wish to gift to any horse person it would be Bill Dorrance's 'True Horsemanship Through Feel.' I love many writers and perspectives on horsemanship but there is a directness and simplicity that Bill Dorrance had which is wonderful. I didn't 'get' it at all when I first read the book tbh. It was so....'American'!! But I kept dipping in and out and one day realised how brilliant it was. You have to think about what the text is telling you but it is pure gold really. I wouldn't sell or give my copy away willingly but I wish more people would and could read it.

Same, I bought and sold it several times and then it became very rare and very expensive (relatively speaking).

The current copy is here for life!

If anyone can't find it reasonably priced 2nd hand I think it's still available from Leslie Desmond's website

 

[SBJT]

@TPO has some great suggestions. I have three 7 clinics series and trained from it but also trained with Shayne Jackson at McGinnis. I also follow Jonathan Field and have done his clinics extensively (have another one booked for Oct). He has a decent DVD series and was the one that taught me what I tend to train into my horses.

But to answer your specific question @Cragsrat, be aware that I did a bunch of setup training to get my horse soft, respectful and listening before I did this. I could also PM you with a video to see how it’s done as it’s a lot more complex and nuanced than just explaining. Plus I’m a little hesitant to say because if you don’t get the timing and feel right you can cause more problems. Okay so caveats over.

I set up a couple of smaller jumps / obstacles that require speed. The horse has to go over them. You want them going over at a forward canter. Then after they jump you relax and give them no pressure. I personally put my carrot stick down and lean on it and just cock my leg and relax. It’s about teaching them to manage their emotions themselves.

Now if you jump straight into this without any prep it’s less likely to work. There are other exercises that are done first to teach the horse to self manage. These include having them lunge on a circle with you applying no pressure and standing in the middle or even following g then (sounds odd and honestly it makes more sense when you see it), this is so that they learn self management. Then there’s smaller and larger circles with lateral work to teach elasticity and listening. Then there’s the stop exercise which I quite honestly have always struggled to do. Then there’s the square exercise where you have them weaving in and out of the cones with minimal pressure from you. This teaches listening and feel. And of course the famous round penning that Monty R seems to have coined as his own specific thing, which I don’t believe has been presented correctly, but that’s another topic of conversation for another day.

So there’s a ton of prep and I likely haven’t explained well, and showing is better. Between BBs 7 Clinics series, Jonathan Field, etc you should have some great insights.

By the way I did buy Ray Hunts book and it was excellent. very short, but excellent.

 

[Cragrat]

Thank you TPO / Palo1/SBJT - lots to investigate! I prefer books - I find it easier to dip in and out and digest information that way, so off to do some searching

 

[Cragrat]

I worked with Monty Roberts for a day a lifetime ago - it was interesting and I picked up some tools that have stayed with me. Parellli I initially found interesting, but quickly became disillusioned - which I regret has clouded my opinion of anyone who did roundpenning/join-up /general western style stuff. Time to open my eyes and learn more.

 

[SBJT]

I worked with Monty Roberts for a day a lifetime ago - it was interesting and I picked up some tools that have stayed with me. Parellli I initially found interesting, but quickly became disillusioned - which I regret has clouded my opinion of anyone who did roundpenning/join-up /general western style stuff. Time to open my eyes and learn more.

Yeah don’t take those two as the standard. Monty is not popular here at all, and even Parelli is becoming fringe. I read Parellis book and some stuff was useful, but as with everything, only in context. When it’s taken and applied too literally then that’s where it becomes dangerous and develops a bad rep. Not to quote Jonathan but it’s a tool box of skills you build. Some will be good with one horse, but a different approach with another horse and it’s the skill where you need to determine what specific tool you need to use to get the best working result for the horse. Which is why I believe it’s best to train with different methods to build your own style. It doesn’t work for everyone but has always worked for me.

 

[stangs]

Parellli I initially found interesting, but quickly became disillusioned - which I regret has clouded my opinion of anyone who did roundpenning/join-up /general western style stuff. Time to open my eyes and learn more.

I'm all for learning, but treat join-up, and any kind of round penning that involves moving the horse until they 'submit', with a serious amount of scepticism. It's founded on very dubious logic, that people repeat as if it's fact - e.g., horses don't really have a concept of dominance, and chewing/licking is that you've stressed the horse out, not a sign of submission. Join up is just very strong negative reinforcement.

Watch, take everything in - I agree with the above about building your own style - but do consider it critically.

 

[palo1]

I'm all for learning, but treat join-up, and any kind of round penning that involves moving the horse until they 'submit', with a serious amount of scepticism. It's founded on very dubious logic, that people repeat as if it's fact - e.g., horses don't really have a concept of dominance, and chewing/licking is that you've stressed the horse out, not a sign of submission. Join up is just very strong negative reinforcement.

Watch, take everything in - I agree with the above about building your own style - but do consider it critically.

I don't really want to derail this but the whole join-up 'methodology', when done respectfully and which seemed interesting to some people some years ago really just achieved what good horsemanship has always done; a soft, listening, trusting horse. I have known horsemen and women way before join up was a thing, where a horse would 'do' all the same stuff but without the circling/chasing. It is interesting that their understanding wasn't perhaps so popularised but it's always been around. Personally I don't think that horses need 'the method' nor do I think they need to play with tarps etc to build trust or confidence. There are other ways of achieving trust, partnership, softness. I just wanted to say that somewhere tbh as join up and it's associated programmes/methods have sort of bothered me for a while. Not dissing anyone's approach at all but as those things have come from the Western school this seems like an ok thread to say that|!!

 

[Caol Ila]

I would sell an arm and a leg to have a lesson with Joe Midgely or Mark Rashid (yeah, that would make riding difficult). Sometimes, I feel so stuck while trying to teach my horse to self-regulate his emotions and not switch into his 'get-out-of-dodge' program. Tbh, he's become fantastic in the arena -- not spooky at all -- and didn't even react too badly when the wind blew a jump standard onto his a*rse. He used to panic in the school, so he's gone from freaked out to thinking dressage is the best thing ever. If only I could get there with solo hacking, but he's still very worried and sometimes goes into feral pony mode when he sees something scary. "Just kick him" is the advice du jour around here. Occasionally, more leg aid does override the fear, but not always. And when I watch people ride, I see a lot of handsy kicking (not ideal when people do both) and hear trainers yelling, "kick, kick, kick!" at riders, so it's not like English riding is the epitome of great horsemanship, either.

When you start Googling local trainers who have a background in Brannaman/Rashid schools of horsemanship, you run into the one who's fallen out with myself and my horse, but separately, before we both knew the other existed. I don't think she's the right choice of trainer. Funny that.

When I lived in Boulder, there were a few students of Brannaman, Rashid, and Linda Tellington-Jones at my barn, and they were fantastic. A wonderful resource. I didn't realize how special that barn was until I left. That's not true -- I did know, because I was in floods of tears when my horse got on the trailer and I moved away to university in Massachuetts. We went back after I graduated, then I was in more flood of tears when we came here. I knew what I was losing. I still miss it.

 

[Lois Lame]

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-display-these-pictures.817640/#post-14897469

It's a fairly normal movement in a boisterous herd of young stock. I've never seen a sound horse canter like in those videos.
.

Oh, I missed these photos first time around. Thanks YCBM. Wonderful pics, BBP. Do you have it on video?????

 

[SBJT]

I would sell an arm and a leg to have a lesson with Joe Midgely or Mark Rashid (yeah, that would make riding difficult). Sometimes, I feel so stuck while trying to teach my horse to self-regulate his emotions and not switch into his 'get-out-of-dodge' program. Tbh, he's become fantastic in the arena -- not spooky at all -- and didn't even react too badly when the wind blew a jump standard onto his a*rse. He used to panic in the school, so he's gone from freaked out to thinking dressage is the best thing ever. If only I could get there with solo hacking, but he's still very worried and sometimes goes into feral pony mode when he sees something scary. "Just kick him" is the advice du jour around here. Occasionally, more leg aid does override the fear, but not always. And when I watch people ride, I see a lot of handsy kicking (not ideal when people do both) and hear trainers yelling, "kick, kick, kick!" at riders, so it's not like English riding is the epitome of great horsemanship, either.

When you start Googling local trainers who have a background in Brannaman/Rashid schools of horsemanship, you run into the one who's fallen out with myself and my horse, but separately, before we both knew the other existed. I don't think she's the right choice of trainer. Funny that.

When I lived in Boulder, there were a few students of Brannaman, Rashid, and Linda Tellington-Jones at my barn, and they were fantastic. A wonderful resource. I didn't realize how special that barn was until I left. That's not true -- I did know, because I was in floods of tears when my horse got on the trailer and I moved away to university in Massachuetts. We went back after I graduated, then I was in more flood of tears when we came here. I knew what I was losing. I still miss it.

Caol Ila I’ve always enjoyed your threads and comments, although I’ve not commented to you before. You seem to come from the same experience as I’ve had, just opposite. So I’ve always been interested in your experiences living in the UK but coming from the States and experiencing the western horsemanship side. It’s always seemed to get a bad rap, but since learning both styles I’ve never really figured out why. If someone can help me understand that would be great as I do eventually expect to move back.

Stangs, my experience in horsemanship has never been about submissiveness. Yes I’ve had my horse licking and chewing when he’s processed a problem but in my time working with my horse and clinicians, I’d say it’s been more about having the horse learn to work through and solve the problem. There’s never been an element of submissiveness, just building the horses confidence, trust, self regulation, and problem solving skills. If your experience has been seeing that side, then I wonder if it’s been more the people you have seen use this method. Saying that, Buck is not slow. His method is still based on the fact that the horse has a job to do, and that might not work with some of the UK crowd.

We have also completely detailed this thread, so for that I apologize as I was probably the main culprit…

 

[Caol Ila]

Caol Ila I’ve always enjoyed your threads and comments, although I’ve not commented to you before. You seem to come from the same experience as I’ve had, just opposite. So I’ve always been interested in your experiences living in the UK but coming from the States and experiencing the western horsemanship side. It’s always seemed to get a bad rap, but since learning both styles I’ve never really figured out why. If someone can help me understand that would be great as I do eventually expect to move back.

Cheers! Are you a Brit living in the US? I come from a bubble, in every way imaginable, and I wasn't exposed to the weird and ugly side of Western riding, or any riding. Not the barrel racing or Western Pleasure or any of that. I learned Western as a little kid but was riding English by the time I was 11. But it didn't matter what saddle you had; the ethos of our barn was very horse-centric, trying to utilize the most cutting-edge knowledge at the time (so a lot of join-up...it was the mid-90s/early 2000s... oops) to do better for our horses, and most boarders and trainers, from the dressage queens to the trail riders, were following Rashid, the Dorrances, Julie Goodnight, Linda Tellington-Jones, et. al. It was a weird Boulder bubble, for sure, but dammit, it was a great bubble. I'd say that the two decades since have been mostly disappointing. Where are my people? I don't know.

Stangs, my experience in horsemanship has never been about submissiveness. Yes I’ve had my horse licking and chewing when he’s processed a problem but in my time working with my horse and clinicians, I’d say it’s been more about having the horse learn to work through and solve the problem. There’s never been an element of submissiveness, just building the horses confidence, trust, self regulation, and problem solving skills. If your experience has been seeing that side, then I wonder if it’s been more the people you have seen use this method. Saying that, Buck is not slow. His method is still based on the fact that the horse has a job to do, and that might not work with some of the UK crowd.

I recently read a paper (cannot remember the source) challenging the the theory that licking and chewing = submissiveness. The paper postulated that it signifies a change in the horse's emotional state, from heightened adrenaline to less adrenaline. Horses do it when they are working through some questions and maybe realizing they can give the trainer the "right" answer and nothing is going to eat them in the meantime. I was watching my 3-year old in the long reins the other day, and she would start licking and chewing right before she stopped running around with her head in the air like a camel and started relaxing into the lines and trotting in a much lower, happier head carriage. I don't think she was "submitting" to me like a dog rolling onto its back, but rather, mentally shifting from, "Two lunge lines is really f*ckin' weird...what is this sh1t??" to "This is kind of alright and I think this is what she wants me to do." As you said perfectly, it's not a sign of submission; it's a sign of a horse processing a problem.

 

[SBJT]

Cheers! Are you a Brit living in the US? I come from a bubble, in every way imaginable, and I wasn't exposed to the weird and ugly side of Western riding, or any riding. Not the barrel racing or Western Pleasure or any of that. I learned Western as a little kid but was riding English by the time I was 11. But it didn't matter what saddle you had; the ethos of our barn was very horse-centric, trying to utilize the most cutting-edge knowledge at the time (so a lot of join-up...it was the mid-90s/early 2000s... oops) to do better for our horses, and most boarders and trainers, from the dressage queens to the trail riders, were following Rashid, the Dorrances, Julie Goodnight, Linda Tellington-Jones, et. al. It was a weird Boulder bubble, for sure, but dammit, it was a great bubble. I'd say that the two decades since have been mostly disappointing. Where are my people? I don't know.



I recently read a paper (cannot remember the source) challenging the the theory that licking and chewing = submissiveness. The paper postulated that it signifies a change in the horse's emotional state, from heightened adrenaline to less adrenaline. Horses do it when they are working through some questions and maybe realizing they can give the trainer the "right" answer and nothing is going to eat them in the meantime. I was watching my 3-year old in the long reins the other day, and she would start licking and chewing right before she stopped running around with her head in the air like a camel and started relaxing into the lines and trotting in a much lower, happier head carriage. I don't think she was "submitting" to me like a dog rolling onto its back, but rather, mentally shifting from, "Two lunge lines is really f*ckin' weird...what is this sh1t??" to "This is kind of alright and I think this is what she wants me to do." As you said perfectly, it's not a sign of submission; it's a sign of a horse processing a problem.

Actually a Brit living in Calgary, Alberta. I came back into riding after a 7 year hiatus after learning English in my childhood in the UK. Its the same here, I was at a very generic barn that went English and western so it was easy to switch or get a really good variance of opinions and experiences, but it was essentially the same (now I’m at a purely English barn here so I go against the grain, but I always get comments that my guy is the easiest horse to handle there, so I guess I’m doing something right). My trainer at my previous place followed Buck, Steve Rother, Peter Campbell, Martin Black, and the rest of the crowd. She wasn’t a fan of Jonathan Field (he was too close to kittens and rainbows as she said). We seem to have the same bubble here in Calgary between the western horsemanship crowd (we ARE in Calgary Stampede territory of course), to the English scene (with Spruce Meadows just down the road). For such a huge horsemanship crowd there is always someone I know at an event, or a friend of a friend and we (mostly) get along well. I think I’ll be in the same boat as you in a few years and wherever I move, will not be the same as here.

I’ve experience the same as you with licking and chewing. I see it as more of a process the horse goes through to figure out if something (whether its a tarp, a ‘curtain’ they have to go through, or a water box). They start off, as you say, going ‘ WTF do you want me to do???’, To figuring out that they can put a foot on it, then walk over it, then stop and fall asleep on it cause they just no longer care. Like you I always learned that its that mental shift they go through in their head, and they build confidence in you and in what they can do.

 

[Kaylum]

Try basic neck reining to begin with there are plenty of videos on YouTube to help you with that. Make sure your horse can bend well both sides. Daily stretches will help with the muscles. All horses should be taught neck reining. It really makes a difference to how you ride them.

 

[TPO]

Hopefully I've cracked this multi quote thing!... just posted and no I haven't! My spiel is all within the quote??

But to answer your specific question @Cragsrat, be aware that I did a bunch of setup training to get my horse soft, respectful and listening before I did this.

Plus I’m a little hesitant to say because if you don’t get the timing and feel right you can cause more problems.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah this is what I struggle to explain and why I thought of Bucks dvds. Basically because it all starts at the beginning qhen teaching the correct responses to pressure and release. A lot of gentle flexing with a release is used on the ground and then taken to the saddle.

Similarly that on the ground the handler gets control of the shoulder, ribs and quarters and can get the horse moving them independently with direct and indirect flexion. That is also taken to the saddle and basically when you can control the quarters you can move or stop the horse easily.

Whilst all of it is simple it's not easy!

qhen I first bought the bulk 7 ckinics I literally thought it was a 7 dvd series of "how to" in linear progression but it's not quite like that.

There was a film made a out Buck funnily enough called Buck. Its where thst infamous footage of the palomino attacking a handler in a ring comes from. Anyway there was a tonne of footage left over because the filmmakers had followed Buck for quite some time.

They've used that footage and spliced it together from handling colts (male or female everything is a colt!), groundwork, backing, ridden work, advanced ridden work and then some problem solving with English ridden horses working at a high level (dressage horse and SJ horse). Watching thr last dvd with thr English horse just shows how relevant the groundwork is.

There are lots of English riders at his clinics too.

Someone on this thread made a comment about Buck maybe not being for a UK audience (paraphrasing). I think there's possibly an element of that. I did have a ridden space and posted a out it on here. The response was very negative, so much so thst I cancelled the spot. If anyone interested this was the threadhttps://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/buck-brannaman-2019.768526/

I hadn't watched the dvds at that point but having done so now I can see what people meant on the thread. The parts of the clinics shown on the dvd are similar to the descriptions on the thread. However now with my little bit of knowledge I "get" it now and I personally think it does come back to "us" not doing enough prep/groundwork and accepting "not quite right" and having low standards/expectations.

His trips to the UK are organised via Tina at Total Horsemanship that I posted the fb link for, there's a website too, and he used to be over every couple of years pre covid.


[QUOTE="stangs, post: 14906814, member: 155806"]I'm all for learning, but treat join-up, and any kind of round penning that involves moving the horse until they 'submit', with a serious amount of scepticism. It's founded on very dubious logic, that people repeat as if it's fact - e.g., horses don't really have a concept of dominance, and chewing/licking is that you've stressed the horse out, not a sign of submission. Join up is just very strong negative reinforcement.

Watch, take everything in - I agree with the above about building your own style - but do consider it critically.[/QUOTE]

I did think that, then I didn't and now I do!

Pre 2003 I was on a yard with a sort of stereotypical Parelli woman. Didn't seem to know one end of a horse from the other, fed the horse cabbage and spent a lot of time putting hula hoops around her poor wee mares neck. She'd spend a fortune going to Parelli's ranch, on Parelli bareback pads and gizmos but wouldn't get the farrier until the shoes were worn razor thin and still ask for them to be reused to save money, never had a saddle fitter or dentist etc.

Then way back in 2003 due to me opening my big mouth and then having to follow through so as not to lose face I found myself on an outback cattle station in the Northern Territory.

I think they were running close to 500 horses on the place. They were as close to feral as it gets and one group would be rounded up to be used for one cycle of work, approx 3mths, then changed out for another. There were also broodmares, competition horses and the managers private horses for comps and his family.

The horses bred on the property didn't have great associations with humans. Any human contact usually meant a distressing time as they'd only be rounded up for things like vaccinations, branding, castration and finally weaning. So when 2yr olds came back into the cattle yards they weren't particularly keen on humans!

The stock camp staff would cut out a chosen youngster and take it into the round yard to do circling work. I asked if they were doing Join Up but none of them had ever heard of Monty or Pat and they sure as heck weren't reading any horse training books.

Circling is just the simplest and quickest way to train pressure and release. From there they quickly progressed to wearing a Halter, sacking out with a saddle pad, wearing a saddle, picking up feet, carrying a rider, then bridled and ridden away. I should say this was 3yr olds +, the 2yr olds would do some circle work, pressure release with a Halter, wear a saddle and pick up hooves.

The 2yr olds would be in for approx 5 days before being turned away until the following year. The 3yr olds would be riding away in under 10 days. Then they'd normally do some easy work like tailing out a mob onto fresh pasture before being turned away for at least 3mths.

So basically by Monty having an adopted/fostered daughter who worked in marketing/pr and Pat getting in tow with thrn marrying a marketing genius they somehow made the rest of the world think that they invented the wheel!

Admittedly there was more than one way to skin a cat and there are harsher and cruel ways to literally break a horse which were the norm so M & P did highly publicise a better way.

I also heard a "join up" horror story from whatshername who ran the ROR near Lancashire. I was at an ROR open day there and she was saying she had been called as an expert witness to a cruelty case. Basically this woman had an ex racer and then found out about Join Up so decided to do that. As she didn't have a clue she missed all of the subtle cues from the horse so kept at it. She had a break for her lunch and dinner leaving the horse in thr arena before going back to chase the "stubborn" horse some more. It dropped dead through dehydration iirc So yeah, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Whilst I don't like or agree with "Join up" I do think there is value in circling work when teaching and training pressure and release.

One of my Australian friends is very experienced having worked on stud farms, racing yards ans dressage yards before I met her on a cattle station. On the station she got heavily involved in campdrafting (aussie horseback cattle event that's a mix of cutting and reined cowhorse) and now cutting. So she's been about and mainly in e glish sports. She still did things thst made me ? like teaching to tie was a fixed tie to a tyre inner and leave the horse to figure it out (their necks and polls ?) and her stance could be very agricultural. Again its a different world, especially on stations/ranches because there's always another horse and plenty of space to turn something a person mucked up away to "forget".

Anyway through a trainer she sent a youngster to she's been introduced to Parelli. Again I'm not really a fan. When I got back from Australia having learnt a whole new way of working horses I did delve into MR and PP but ultimately they weren't for me. So I made more of this face ? over the phone while she was telling me all about her enthusiasm for PP and all the reading up she has been doing.

I tried to guide her more towards Mark Rashid and BB but we'll see. Anyway my point is she said it was like lots of things clicking into place and it really made her consider things from the horses POV.

I was really shocked as I thought she already did because she is very accomplished and capable. But getting into Parelli has totally changed her mindset and she's all about seeing things from the horses side. She's recently bought a filly that will arrive at her once she's weaned and my friend wants to do everything PP style with thr new filly to "make sure she has the best start". So whilst I'm not a PP fan I can see some good elements within it (although don't get me started on Linda ?) and ot can only be a good thing that there'll be no more hard tying without first having trained a lot of pressure a d release?

It's like Tik Maynard write in his book (In thr middle are horsemen- recommend) where you learn as much as you can over a wide range of sports and horsemen thrn pick what suits you. He calls it canteen horsemanship where you pick the bits you like.

 

[ycbm]

You can edit quotes to put them right.

I hope this might help.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/by-popular-request-how-to-use-quotes.801889/

 

[nicolel]

The age issue is found in many Western disciplines tbf, thanks to people earning a stupid amount of money from futurity classes and the like. AFAIK the only Western discipline where you don't have classes for 2yos is bronc riding.

Had a look for you as regards specific issues associated with Western Pleasure, palo.

"Shoemaker notes that the lamest of the Western horses he sees are Western pleasure Quarter Horses, likely due to 1) a large body mass to small foot size ratio, which has some genetic implications; 2) long, slow repetitive trauma from persistent loping; and 3) nutrition and diet that spur rapid growth." [x]

It also sounds like there are various shoeing styles used to achieve the fluid foot movement, which vary in terms of how good they are for the horse. "The industry has the option to use a [perimeter-fit aluminum shoe] horseshoe and achieve the same quality of movement as the [squared-toe aluminum shoe], while potentially amplifying the longevity of the western pleasure horse." [x]

According to the AQHA (my bolding), "the lope is an easy, rhythmical, three-beat gait. ... Horses traveling at a four-beat gait are not considered to be performing at a proper lope. The horse should lope with a natural stride and appear relaxed and smooth. It should be ridden at a speed that is a natural way of going. The head should be carried at an angle, which is natural and suitable to the horse’s conformation at all gaits. [x]

This paper looks useful too, but I'm struggling to find a copy of it anywhere.

I came across this website reiningtrainers.com which is all about the horror those western reining horses go through. I was in tears. If that is western I am not going near it. what those little baby horses have to do.

 

[nicolel]

I don't want to feel horrified on purpose and I know that there are many very good western riders and happy horses within that system - sorry you can't see the video; it was just so extreme, so strange and so alien to my understanding that I was just genuinely astounded (not in a good way). The video I am referring to sadly has been removed (as far as I can see) but it was a 3 y/o championship (Maiden?) class. This one is similar and shows the gait I was horrified by at about 59 seconds.

I found a ridden class with 2 year olds too. This is another one (not 2 y/o) :

at about 13 minutes (specifically 13.18 -14.00) or so shows one horse with a very extreme version of the slow lope. It is clearly a thing. Is this more of an American thing; is there any sense of disquiet about these very laboured looking gaits? The musculature of the horses' backs looks pretty different to what I am used to but I do understand that there are different strokes for different folks and that these horses are in likelihood very well cared for in terms of physio/vet etc. Are there specific veterinary and physical issues related to this kind of work? (I am aware that, for example supensory injuries may be seen as having a relationship to dressage for example and that racehorses with bad backs are not especially uncommon). I am genuinely interested to find out about this as I don't want to diss something without a better understanding of it.

ETA - I realise that both videos are the same event but one is short and one is long!

WP has nothing to do with working (on) cattle.

I believe it originated because ranchers had hundreds of thousands of acres and would have to ride out for hours to check fences, troughs and stock etc. So you wanted to have an economical and comfortable ride so a smooth jog and lope was the thing.

Just humans going to human that they've taken everything to the extreme.

All western competitions started as ranch hands trying to out do each other and a while load of events came out of that. It originated from skills that were necessary for work and then who was the best at them.

Thats sort of how the quarter horse came to be because they bred a type thst worked on the ranches and then ended up racing them over 1/4 mile tracks for fun. QH racing is a big industry in America. I don't follow American TB racing so no ides how they compare monetary wise.

Re "exciting" western events* like reining/cutting/reined cowhorse the horses are so well trained thst after the high of a run the horse comes back calmly and leave on a very loose rein walk and in some cases reiners take the bridle off on the way out. Not something you see at English events!

*excluding barrel racing. They seem pretty hot and tied down all the time. Not a fan of that either or that it's gaining traction over here.

I used to think the western reining was good until I came across this site reiningtrainers.com. there is so much going on that is really nasty to those horses to make them do it. They talk about drugging like buying an ice-cream. A big no to reining for me.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Don't lump all western together based off of one website.

Don't do that to any discipline.

There are some fine and considerate western riders out there who would be absolutely disgusted by that.

My main discipline is dressage, but heck if I'm pleased with every dressage website/rider/opinion/or example of the sport. There are many dressage riders that I cannot relate to.

 

[Orangehorse]

i mean it's just another bonkers thing to do with horses isn't it? in the grand scheme of things it's probably no better or worse than most other horse sports as they all have controversies and odd practices, but i do strongly object to the young age of the horses that can compete which is generally only seen in racing over here.

And in racing the riders are lightweight and generally the horses mostly go in straight lines, more or less.

 

[Orangehorse]

The "dead horse walk" - and I know that I said rather loudly once when watching the western lope that if my horse moved like that I would be worried!

However, don't fall into the trap of just because something is different it is wrong. There are a great many excellent riders and trainers in America in all disciplines.

 

[Landcruiser]

I came across this website reiningtrainers.com which is all about the horror those western reining horses go through. I was in tears. If that is western I am not going near it. what those little baby horses have to do.

This isn't western, it's an unfortunate and sometimes extreme branch of it. I had a lesson with a top trainer in the UK, on one of his quarter horses, many years ago. It was enough for me to know that that end of western was NOT what I was interested in. The horse was willing and light, but jog felt just lame, literally. It was interesting, but not my thing. I stuck with trail, which led me into TREC, which I have done in western tack and using western principles for almost 10 years. Yes, my western trained horse can canter a corridor from a standstill, jump a log, then immediately come to a stop and stand for 10 seconds on a loose rein for immobility, canter on, carry (and ignore) a large flag - all western trail skills. I think western horsemanship should be about creating a level headed horse with a good work ethic, that knows where its feet are and is switched on to what the rider is asking with the lightest of aids, and is not easily distracted. Western Pleasure at high level seems to me to be creating a robot of a horse, a poor sorry looking thing, and it looks anything but pleasurable for the horses. Thankfully in the UK WP classes from what little I have seen don't encourage those awful unnatural hobbling gaits.

 

[TPO]

I used to think the western reining was good until I came across this site reiningtrainers.com. there is so much going on that is really nasty to those horses to make them do it. They talk about drugging like buying an ice-cream. A big no to reining for me.

On one hand this isn't reining and on the other hand it is.

So good people don't do bad things to horses. It doesn't matter the discipline or even if there's no discipline. Decent humans with ethics and morals don't mistreat and abuse animals full stop.

The horrible things shown on that website have appeared on other similar websites but showing dressage and jumping. Possibly epona TV? Does not make it right by any stretch but its not only reining or Pleasure or dressage or jumping. Heck there's been plenty to of videos doing the SM circuit of Joe Bloggs setting about their horse and we aren't all doing that.

On the other hand western riding isn't great because it is the norm to be starting horses 2 and under for the futurities.

There is a LOT of money at stake. Not that prize money makes it OK by any means but you can see how people can become very driven and focused only on that end result.

I can't remember if it was earlier on this thread but I've definitely posted about this before (& I think been jumped on at least once! ? ). So reining came under FEI and there was a made panic because of the FEI age rules, 7+, that the Americans had nothing that old and sound. Also drug/medication use is a lot more acceptable/accessible over there and FEI drug tests. It does say a lot when horses are done by 7! The website posted cover it in more detail so thanks for sharing.

Again can't remember if it was earlier on the thread or elsewhere but the big Run for a Million competition was made into a TV series called The Last Cowboy. It was available on FB watch. I was pretty shocked at one section where a lame horse was made to run and slide to "loosen off" (Cade McCutcheons horse) beore going to see the (on site?) vet. The problem.was thst they weren't warming up or cooling down and the cure was to jag it. Like hundreds of thousands of dollars of horses and they didn't even do what we'd consider the very basics of a warm up and cool down. Blows my tiny mind that using drugs is preferred over something so simple.

Cant say I was surprised to see Craig Schmersal as one of thr riders on the shared website. He gave off really bad vibes on The Last Cowboy imo.

What's so frustrating is thst he is clearly talented and able but rather than take any time people resort to harsh "fixes" to achieve a certain thing.

Again not just Western. There's been plenty shared about Anky & Co, blue tongue, pole rapping etc

I don't know how you legislate for cruelty when some people seem set on it.

[And that is how you spiral off on a tangent!]