Western riding 'kinder' than English?

[ycbm]

To be honest, it's more the rider than the equipment, imo.

However, from what I've seen of the Western style it seems like lazy riding using chunky, barbaric bits and overlarge saddles as a substitute for actual riding skills.

I don't like the Western style and I'm glad it never really became popular in the UK.

I see saddles that create a huge bearing surface, meaning minimum pounds per square inch on the horse back, and bits that are very forgiving, because unless there is a big piece above the mouthpiece, a long shank allows for a great deal of rein movement before there is any significant pressure on the horse's mouth or poll.

 

[Cortez]

I see saddles that create a huge bearing surface, meaning minimum pounds per square inch on the horse back, and bits that are very forgiving, because unless there is a big piece above the mouthpiece, a long shank allows for a great deal of rein movement before there is any significant pressure on the horse's mouth or poll.

This ' ' ' and a bit is only "barbaric" if the person using it does so in an uneducated or rough manner, otherwise it just sits there. I much prefer a curb bit to a snaffle - pinching, undefined blunt instrument that it is in the wrong hands (the root meaning of the word snaffle is "to pinch"BTW).

The reason that the snaffle came to be so universally used is it was given to beginner riders as they could make more mistakes with their rein aids without eliciting the extreme reaction that a leverage bit would produce if roughly used. The German term for snaffle is "wasser trense" or watering bit, it being the groom's job to take horses out to water and presumably a groom not being considered educated enough to use the curb. So far from being "kind", it is merely dull.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I see saddles that create a huge bearing surface, meaning minimum pounds per square inch on the horse back.

This is a common misconception. Alas, many Western saddles seem to bridge badly, so in practice the horse is still being pinched by ill fitting tack.

 

[Cortez]

This is a common misconception. Alas, many Western saddles seem to bridge badly, so in practice the horse is still being pinched by ill fitting tack.

...and many do not, thus meaning that they fit very well, same as any saddle type really.

 

[ycbm]

This is a common misconception. Alas, many Western saddles seem to bridge badly, so in practice the horse is still being pinched by ill fitting tack.

Like EVERY saddle, it has to fit! It is not a misconception that they spread weight at all. The bigger the surface in contact with the horse, the lower the lbs/in2

My pet hate on English saddles is the use of shims without a tapered edge. A shim which suddenly ends will ALWAYS create a bridge point. Don't start me on those numnahs with four gel inserts, one front and one back on each side.

 

[Rollin]

Saddle fitting? It is common in France and Belgium for the rider to have his own saddle to plonk on any horse. One of my trainers could not believe that I had 8 saddles when he had only one.

I interviewed two French stable lads who expected to use their own same saddle on Arabians and Cleveland Bays!! So lots of horses are ridden in saddles which may not fit not necessarily Western.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I meant that some folk are convinced that a western saddle will automatically be more comfortable than an English one, because the greater bearing surface disappates pressure. This is of course only true if the saddle fits correctly and doesn't bridge.

Not all western saddles fit every horse, despite what some born again western types I've come across seem to believe.

 

[Landcruiser]

I was never comfortable with the concept of "contact" and fell naturally into western when I got my first horse 8 years ago. I like the lack of "stuff" - tight nosebands, martingales, things to restrict the horse's natural movements. I do think that it's kinder to allow a horse to open its mouth and move its head as it finds comfortable, yes. And I do think a well fitting western saddle must be more comfortable - it certainly is for the rider - although I do worry sometimes when it's hot as the pad is so big and gets so sweaty.

In my experience western horses tend to fuss a lot less than "english" and I'm not talking about quarter horses here. At my low level there are all sorts - natives, cobs, TBs, attending clinics, and they'll all stand quietly dozing waiting their turns. Mine is a criollo (who neck reined and had been worked in a fierce south american bit, not "western" as such). Doing western clinics did him a power of good, calmed him, and made him into a lovely TREC horse. My instinct tells me that lack of fuss and soft expressions equals contented horses. I accept that some competition quarter horses do look shut down - a different thing altogether.
I do think that whatever discipline you choose, kindness is to do with the individual rider for the most part, although it can never be kind to use ill fitting and unnecessary/uncomfortable tack on any horse.

 

[pennandh]

If you have well-maintained tack that fits properly; a bit that's appropriate to your horse's level of training; and that golden combination of independent seat and tactful hands, it makes little to no difference what style of riding you fancy.

Obviously, some activities are easier to do in certain tack - I wouldn't use my western saddle for jumping any more than a small log because the horn gets in the way something awful, for example - but it's all a bit swings and roundabouts as to whether either discipline is really 'kinder' than the other.

 

[marotelle]

This has been my thoughts too.

Western is popular here and there are quite a few "cowboy type" men making a killing doing clinics with like you say large ladies on little quarter horses, many of whom never venture outside of the arena.

It totally depends on the rider as to whether it is kinder than English riding. I think that riding horses in full work at two years old and expecting them to be doing strenuous manouvers ie sliding stops, spins ect by the time they are four is not kind at all. I wonder how long these horses actually have a working life for. I was at an event a couple of years back. and there was a big heavy man on a lovely little quarter horse stallion doing all of the above and the horse was only 3 years old. The western people all thought it was great, personally I was sad for the horse. This was one of the top trainers in the country who I believe also does clinics overseas.

Many of the westerners will knock dressage but this is what is winning in America, these horses look totally miserable, shut down and crippled. If my horse cantered across the paddock like that I would be seriously
concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnCD-yN4aTQ forward it to 5 mins 20 see the loping.

This is a video of a warm up at a big show, no different to the videos of some European dressage warm ups which have caused outrage on social media

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyZlov_YEw

So really it DOES depend on who is riding the horse as to whether it is kinder or not.

So yes it can be kinder or less kind depending on the rider.

This is quite revolting,those poor horses,It's even quite difficult to watch if any of my animals were moving like this I would be on the phone calling for my vet.
Disgusting.

 

[Cortez]

This is quite revolting,those poor horses,It's even quite difficult to watch if any of my animals were moving like this I would be on the phone calling for my vet.
Disgusting.

I completely agree. But I could have written the exact same words under any number of videos of dressage/XC/showjumping competitions too.

 

[tillypony]

I am in the UK and have QH's I ride them English and Western and show them at the AQHA UK shows. As with any riding there are good and bad things you can see. I generally find the top level of any horse sport the horses are pushed pretty My horses are my hobby / pets so never pushed that hard, they do a bit of showing and just general fun riding. I do like the western as they are ridden in a gentle contact (even our curbs are not harsh ones) They are very sensitive to the aids and stopping / turning etc. Western can be great fun and very enjoyable for hacking out too. If you haven't tried western go to one of the places that teach and give it a go. QH's have nice smooth paces and are really great horses. There are lots of open days that the show places run. https://www.facebook.com/SQHWesternRiding/?fref=ts this one has it on the 2nd Oct. If you are close then go along and see some demos for yourself

 

[tillypony]

one of the most popular classes at the shows at the moment is the ranch riding. Its given like a dressage test with a pattern of trotting, cantering etc and you get a score sheet just like dressage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev6wfIW5JyE here is someone in Germany doing the class.

this is a nice horse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7SJ6aQx9KU from the USA

 

[tallyho!]

Saddle fitting? It is common in France and Belgium for the rider to have his own saddle to plonk on any horse. One of my trainers could not believe that I had 8 saddles when he had only one.

I interviewed two French stable lads who expected to use their own same saddle on Arabians and Cleveland Bays!! So lots of horses are ridden in saddles which may not fit not necessarily Western.

That depends... see my old trainer had a saddle with a leather tree which was common in the old days, very close contact and did actually fit every horse!! I never saw a horse go badly in one... no idea what they were called. Only that it was precious. I had one on loan which I had to have a saddle fitted as I wasn't allowed that one. I guess she knew how special it was.

I wonder if anyone here knows what it might have been. I only know it's rare so I onwder if your French trainer had one and I wonder where it was made. Treed saddles weren't always popular in the middle ages... Cortez may know more?

 

[tillypony]

My western saddle have an Equiflex tree in them so they have some movement. The horse is fitted with a template frame and that was sent off to Germany where they make them. The compare it against lots of trees and then make the saddle around the one that works the best. I use a saddle pad under my blanket that has options for inserts for when they change shape. They have Chiro and sports massage and never had an issue with any area for saddle fit.

 

[JDee]

There's good and bad in both but just because some Western riders ride and train their horses with consideration doesn't mean that the majority do.
Long shanked bits which the experts will always say are for refinement after training are seen on just about anything for any reason regardless of training and some of those bits have awful mouthpieces that no well trained horse should ever need. If the saddle is well fitting then great but they're way heavier on average than a UK saddle and plonked on horses that are 2 years old and sometimes less - I've seen more weird shaped backs since I came here than I ever saw in many years in the UK. You've got western pleasure with horses dragging along like cripples with their noses on the ground despite the AQHA rule book saying they shouldn't, barrel racers yanking cub bits and spurring non stop, one certain Aussie 'trainer' constantly promoting the use of hyperflexion to make a horse 'soft' for reining classes
There are some great western riders but don't be fooled by the Natural Horsemanship craze into thinking they're all like that or any kinder than the typical british rider/trainer

 

[marmalade76]

A senior Western trainer I know reckons that most of her clients who have transferred to Western from English did so because they are useless at English riding, and are clutching at straws hoping that Western may be the way forward for them.

She happily takes the money off these well intentioned but talentless riders.

I have spectated at several Western clinics. They are a good money spinner, that's for sure.

Sadly there are dreadful/talentless/ignorant/unsympathetic/downright nasty riders in all disciplines.

 

[DanceswithCows]

If all you are doing is bumbling about the ranch, neck reining with a grazing bit, then you aren't going to be doing much harm to your horse. Once competitions come into play, the "Western" world has some of the most godawful bits on the planet.

This has been my impression too. I turned to western as I liked the idea of starting youngsters bitless, neck reining and loose reins, and that can happen in a casual setting. But when I started going to competitions I saw *extremely* shut down horses and it quite sickened me. Then you have the peanut rolling, with constant banging on the mouth with the ported bits, the two year olds pulling off strenuous movements under hefty guys and barrel racers using leverage bits to haul their animals all over the place and I fled back to english!

 

[Nancykitt]

There are some great western riders but don't be fooled by the Natural Horsemanship craze into thinking they're all like that or any kinder than the typical british rider/trainer

Agree 100%.
One of my pet hates is people who treat Western as some sort of 'fancy dress' exercise, with the tack and rider clothing becoming, essentially, part of a 'costume'. So you get horses in those bridles that go around the ear, thin bits with huge shanks and extremely heavy saddles that don't necessarily fit at all and can cause no end of problems. Rider (who often doesn't have any riding skills whatsoever) dresses up in a cowboy hat, cowboy boots and enormous spurs and then proceeds to kick the horse around the arena doing sliding stops. It's no coincidence that the people I've seen engaging in this sort of behaviour also have a shelf full of Parelli-type DVDs, a big stick and a special rope.
I've seen it and I hate it.

 

[Landcruiser]

Tallyho! your old trainer may have had a McLellan cavalry saddle which was designed to fit a large range of horses. I rode in one in South Africa, and it's owner had had it happily fitting dozens of horses over the years. Not western exactly, but designed in the old west for sure.

 

[JDee]

You have two year olds that look like a pony in size even though they're called horses carrying men and a heavy saddle in an outline that can't be natural. Even though the rules state that the poll should be level with the withers its very often not. I see nothing kind about this at all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enMltPKdDDs
And then you have the same quarter horses switching to English tack and rider clothing in a class called Hunter under saddle that doesn't look remotely like an English hunter class

 

[rachk89]

It does just depend on the rider. I do feel sorry for the halter horses though over in America that look like they have taken steroids. They look in pain.

 

[Casey76]

And then you have the same quarter horses switching to English tack and rider clothing in a class called Hunter under saddle that doesn't look remotely like an English hunter class

Hunter classes in the US (and even here in France) are nothing to do with actual 'hunting' which is what UK Hunters is all about. It is more an equitation class, where you get points for style and pace.

 

[lrw0250]

I freely admit I know next to nothing about Western but there is a livery yard not a million miles from me who specialise in it. From what I can gather from their and their clients posts on Facebook it seems to be a haven for riders who do not have a very good seat and feel more "secure" in a Western saddle. Drives me nuts when I see photos of them hacking out with no riding hats or high viz though!

 

[Nancykitt]

I freely admit I know next to nothing about Western but there is a livery yard not a million miles from me who specialise in it. From what I can gather from their and their clients posts on Facebook it seems to be a haven for riders who do not have a very good seat and feel more "secure" in a Western saddle. Drives me nuts when I see photos of them hacking out with no riding hats or high viz though!

Yes, I've seen this too - someone who literally chucked an incredibly heavy western saddle on their little horse and said they were riding Western because they 'didn't have the confidence to ride in an English saddle.' Then went on to slouch around in the saddle with no hat because 'cowboys never fall off.'

 

[Cortez]

Yes, I've seen this too - someone who literally chucked an incredibly heavy western saddle on their little horse and said they were riding Western because they 'didn't have the confidence to ride in an English saddle.' Then went on to slouch around in the saddle with no hat because 'cowboys never fall off.'

Did they fall off then?

 

[sasquatch]

Hunter classes in the US (and even here in France) are nothing to do with actual 'hunting' which is what UK Hunters is all about. It is more an equitation class, where you get points for style and pace.

this is where I get confused, as Equitation classes also seem to be a thing too.
I thought Hunter Under Saddle was more like showing, whilst it was English Pleasure that was more a western horse in English tack (basically Western Pleasure classes in English tack) and Hunters was closer to Working Hunter but instead of breed/heights classes it's done by childs age/experience? I get confused as I know people in their late teens who are happy to be moving up to compete at 'childrens hunters' yet they're 17/18 and not really children. I was under the impression that Hunter Under Saddle was more Hunters horses on the flat/with no jumps, and equitation was 2/3 jumps and also riding on the flat but not dressage either.
I have no idea what Huntseat classes are though.

 

[Enfys]

I think it's subjective, some of those western lever action bits don't look soft.

They aren't, but then a nice 'kind' snaffle bit can do as much damage
Not a lot different really ( apart from the amazing number of mouthpieces available) from a Weymouth or Pelham or any number of 'English' style bits which are also shanked, and some which are basically shanked and don't have curbs which are just as important to the action ( dutch gags, bubble bits, three ring gags whatever they are called for instance) It is all to do with understanding the physics of them

A properly trained western horse (or any which wears a shanked bit) has been schooled to understand them, they make the difference between hauling the arse off a runaway tank and holding a hummingbird.

As always, you get the good and the bad

 

[Enfys]

To be honest, it's more the rider than the equipment, imo.

However, from what I've seen of the Western style it seems like lazy riding using chunky, barbaric bits and overlarge saddles as a substitute for actual riding skills.

I don't like the Western style and I'm glad it never really became popular in the UK.

Remember that originally, horses were trucks, they were the vehicles that ranchers relied on. Farm hands were not always horsemen, and riding skills often were limited to staying in the saddle and working cattle and riding fencelines.

Tack was designed to be serviceable, comfortable and practical (that horn isn't just for hanging on to, you can't dally a rope with a calf, or log etc on an English saddle), reins are long and split for a reason, bits developed out of necessity and ranch horses were often half broken and unschooled.

The operative word here is originally, show riding pleasure, performance etc has come a long way, and not all things good.

There are good, bad and meh riders in all spheres, the tack doesn't actually make a lot of difference

 

[Nancykitt]

Did they fall off then?

Only on the bott when dismounting, keeping one foot in the stirrup 'cowboy style'.