What’s the point of a passport?

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rallan15

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Recently the horse I was sharing was sold to a dealer who then sold him on to his current owners.
Long story short I offered to buy him but I was to late so we got in contact with his new owners so that I could still see him occasionally.
We’ve been told by his owners that he didn’t come with a passport, the thing is I know he has one as I’ve seen it before.
My question is what’s the point in a passport? Like why would someone withhold the passport - can they do anything with it?
It seems a bit strange as I can’t think of what they can do with this passport considering they don’t own the horse anymore.
 
Dealers have been prosecuted for using fake or altered passports. Always match the details to the horse and get a vet to verify the details. Never buy a horse without a genuine passport, it might be stolen.
 
Lots of reasons a dealer might withhold a passport A couple that spring to mind are they are lying about the horse's age or breeding; they don't want you to get in touch with previous owners and find the horse has known issues
 
criso said:
Lots of reasons a dealer might withhold a passport A couple that spring to mind are they are lying about the horse's age or breeding; they don't want you to get in touch with previous owners and find the horse has known issues
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This makes sense - the owners have been told the horse is 7 even though he’s 6 (he’ll be 7 in October) even though I don’t understand why they lied about that to be honest. It’s a slightly strange situation...
 
dogatemysalad said:
Dealers have been prosecuted for using fake or altered passports. Always match the details to the horse and get a vet to verify the details. Never buy a horse without a genuine passport, it might be stolen.
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Luckily for the current owners I’ve been able to tell them everything about the horse as there was a lot of information that was withheld from them. They said themselves they wouldn’t usually buy without a passport but they thought he was so nice etc they bought him anyway.
 
rallan15 said:
This makes sense - the owners have been told the horse is 7 even though he’s 6 (he’ll be 7 in October) even though I don’t understand why they lied about that to be honest. It’s a slightly strange situation...
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Nio I agree, in this case it doesn't make sense but the difference between and 3 year old and a 5 or 4 even in terms of what you will be able to do is huge. Is is possible the person who sold him to the dealer had lost the passport so he didn't come with one.
 
rallan15 said:
This makes sense - the owners have been told the horse is 7 even though he’s 6 (he’ll be 7 in October) even though I don’t understand why they lied about that to be honest. It’s a slightly strange situation...
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If he’s 7 this year then they’ve not lied, in many circles he would be considered the be 7 as of the 1st January in the year he was born. Probably semantics on the age rather than a lie here... my mare is technically not yet 6 but she’s still a rising 6 yr old
 
OldNag said:
I thought it was not now possible to sell without a passport. Have I got that wrong?
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You're not supposed to but people do sell without one and people sometimes don't ask to see it until they've paid and the horse is delivered and suddenly find the passport can't be located.

When I've gone to see horses I've been shown a passport at the first viewing.
 
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I was on a yard where someone had been gifted a horse. Story was she was a rescue so no passport.

New owners did the responsible thing and got vet out to chip and complete passport documents - only to find there was already a chip. So they requested a duplicate passport.

Passport company contacted previous owner who thought pony was out on loan and she absolutely had not been for sale.....
 
Passports and especially chips have almost eradicated theft, and passing off ex racers as 7/8 ID.

Those are both good things for most owners, but it did result in the market for ex racers crashing when it became clear just how many of them there are.


..
 
The genuine passport can be kept to use on a non-passported horse, and a duplicate one issued for the original horse.

New owners apply for replacement passport, another horse matching (close enough) the description is sold with a passport. A lot of people don't bother to update the keeper's details, so the fraud is rarely detected.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I think the weirdest thing is he’s chipped which makes me even more confused as to why they didn’t just give them his passport! At least I can confirm that the only actual false information that his new owners have been given is that he’s 7 when really he’s 6.
Weird situation but that’s again!
 
rallan15 said:
Thanks for all the replies. I think the weirdest thing is he’s chipped which makes me even more confused as to why they didn’t just give them his passport! At least I can confirm that the only actual false information that his new owners have been given is that he’s 7 when really he’s 6.
Weird situation but that’s again!
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So there is no false information except from yourself. The horse is 7. ALL horses have their annual birthday on 1st January for ageing purposes. Thus a TB that was born on 31st December would be one on the next day, the 1st January. That is standard procedure throughout the horse world ( and I do mean world!)
 
sport horse said:
So there is no false information except from yourself. The horse is 7. ALL horses have their annual birthday on 1st January for ageing purposes. Thus a TB that was born on 31st December would be one on the next day, the 1st January. That is standard procedure throughout the horse world ( and I do mean world!)
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I just looked this up as I never knew this was a thing and I’ve seen a few people that have said it’s 1st of January if you don’t know the horses birthday (or if their birthday isn’t on the passport) so I guess his original owner must still have the passport which is why the dealer has said he’s 7. In a way neither the dealer nor I have actually given out any false info.
Thanks for telling me about this though I never knew.
 
sport horse said:
So there is no false information except from yourself. The horse is 7. ALL horses have their annual birthday on 1st January for ageing purposes. Thus a TB that was born on 31st December would be one on the next day, the 1st January. That is standard procedure throughout the horse world ( and I do mean world!)
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In Australia, the horse's birthday falls on August 1st. It's the Thoroughbred (and Standardbred) racing industry more than any other, I think, that wants this system. Maybe show horses too.

Regarding the missing passport of the OP's ex loan horse, I suspect the dealer wanted to keep it to use on some other horse he will sell.
 
rallan15 said:
I just looked this up as I never knew this was a thing and I’ve seen a few people that have said it’s 1st of January if you don’t know the horses birthday (or if their birthday isn’t on the passport) so I guess his original owner must still have the passport which is why the dealer has said he’s 7. In a way neither the dealer nor I have actually given out any false info.
Thanks for telling me about this though I never knew.
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It’s nothing to do with whether their birthday is known or not. It’s just standard to say he’s 7 if he is 7 at any point this year, whether it’s on the passport or not
 
The point of a passport is something that I’ve wondered about too. Obviously it records breeding in those that have a breed society one and age if they don’t. I hear of so many sold without them though, especially at the lower end of the market (which presumably is what they were designed for since a lot of the point is to do with the food chain). I’ve neber been asked for mine to record medications or when my horses have been pts.

I think it’s another law that was brought in my the Government with the feint hope that someone else was going to enforce it.
 
I think they are completely pointless without a central database. Mine has a passport but it wasn't issued until he was supposedly nine, although everyone who has met him thinks he is substantially younger than his passported age, albeit at an age where it's difficult to be accurate from teeth.

I use mine as a record of vaccination and I do carry it when I'm travelling him, although again, if I was stopped and it was checked, I'm not sure how they would know it was the right horse as his height isn't even recorded!

And we all know that there are thousands and thousands of unpassported horses in the UK as there will undoubtedly be thousands of unchipped ones when that become law next year.
 
rallan15 said:
Recently the horse I was sharing was sold to a dealer who then sold him on to his current owners.
Long story short I offered to buy him but I was to late so we got in contact with his new owners so that I could still see him occasionally.
We’ve been told by his owners that he didn’t come with a passport, the thing is I know he has one as I’ve seen it before.
My question is what’s the point in a passport? Like why would someone withhold the passport - can they do anything with it?
It seems a bit strange as I can’t think of what they can do with this passport considering they don’t own the horse anymore.
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The dealer may be hanging onto it if the new owners haven't yet paid the balance on the horse, a sort of security measure. But they might not be telling you this.
My friend had a similar experience. She went to see a horse from a dealer, the dealer having bought the horse from another dealer. The first dealer had told the woman who 'owned' the horse my friend was interested in that she could have the said horse and they had come up with a payment plan that included a part exchange of a youngster and the balance in cash.

Until the lady dealer had paid the balance the first dealer had kept hold of the passport.
 
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I think people are too young to remember when horses, especially ex racehorses, were passed off in large numbers as something they weren't by unscrupulous sellers.

Now, it is too much trouble to re-passport for any but the determined to bother.

I think it's made buying a lot safer for people to be able to demand a passport and be alerted to something being potentially fishy if there isn't one, or it doesn't match the horse.


.
 
I have access to a scanner and will be taking it with me when I finally find a horse worth viewing! At least I'll be able to check the horse and passport match.
 
annagain said:
I have access to a scanner and will be taking it with me when I finally find a horse worth viewing! At least I'll be able to check the horse and passport match.
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That's definitely worth doing! I worked at a slightly dubious riding school for a while where they used to get horses cheap who either worked out or went to the hunt. We had many who turned up without a passport, but who had been chipped (vet's record was 3 chips in one horse). If the yard owner though they were going to be any good then a duplicate passport was requested although if no one could track down which original agency issued chip #1 then the paperwork went off to Petplan for a new one. I dread to think why some of these had got separated from their passports :oops:

We had a stash in a drawer of old passports for horses who had gone to the hunt. If anyone was travelling something then they could help themselves.

Without a central database the whole passport thing was completely meaningless. I've checked on the central one that's now in place and my Appy who is on a duplicate passport - so should be automatically out of the food chain - does not have that on the centralised one. I notice it also doesn't list owner or any other useful information.
 
They don't mean much do they. Someone local to me has just acquired a new horse. Been told its a 5yo. My farrier has been down to shoe it and hes adamant its a 2yo. Sold with no passport. If people are willing to buy with no passport then expect to get burned.
 
SEL said:
Without a central database the whole passport thing was completely meaningless. I've checked on the central one that's now in place and my Appy who is on a duplicate passport - so should be automatically out of the food chain - does not have that on the centralised one. I notice it also doesn't list owner or any other useful information.
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I don’t even think they are checked properly for the food chain, certainly not at the low end ‘meat men’. I know someone who her their horse shot and taken for meat and no passport was present. I’m also pretty sure the fields of coloured cobs that all disappear together one day don’t have passports either, so the original purpose of passports doesn’t actually seem to be enforced.

I remember reading about a horse that was involved in an RTA and disposed of. It transpired that the council disposed of it without even checking for a chip so the owner didn’t find out until they enquired.
 
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Transporters would never move a horse without a passport - they faced a £5k fine if they were stopped and checked. That said the enforcers were local Trading Standards and they never even seemed to know. I contacted them for a waiver for a horse whose passport was lost in the post and they seemed genuinely surprised - and didn't even check the story. So I guess that part of it is meaningless these days too - do transporters still insist?
And other than a vaccination record vets don't seem to bother either - my horse is PPID and on a repeat prescription for Prascend, they never ask for his passport to record that
 
JillA said:
Transporters would never move a horse without a passport - they faced a £5k fine if they were stopped and checked. That said the enforcers were local Trading Standards and they never even seemed to know. I contacted them for a waiver for a horse whose passport was lost in the post and they seemed genuinely surprised - and didn't even check the story. So I guess that part of it is meaningless these days too - do transporters still insist?
And other than a vaccination record vets don't seem to bother either - my horse is PPID and on a repeat prescription for Prascend, they never ask for his passport to record that
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A vet signed off every passport on site at my old yard due to owners sharing danilon all round - but she only did it because one of their client horses ended up in the food chain, tested positive for bute and they got a telling off. So whenever one was presented for vaccinations she signed off the 'out of food chain' bit too.

Reputable transporters will ask for passports. Private drivers are often not even aware they should have them on board.
 
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