What advantage does a horse have trained by parelli regime v traditional training

[Fellewell]

From what I read (which may of course be completely untrue), Catwalk was looked at by two vets, one of whom noted red lesions on his gums consistent with the use of the rope gumline that Parelli used to subdue/distract/train the stallion during the public demo. Judging from the clip put together by Team Parelli after the brouhaha (link below), Pat made progress with bridling, though I haven't seen what he is like to bridle now and/or if his headshyness is completely cured. One would hope so, for the horse's sake, because he must have gone through a lot of unpleasantness, prior to the event, at the hands of the grooms of the owner (show jumping royalty) who apparently resorted to using 'unconventional' means to bridle him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j25pS6ixWk

Thanks for posting the link. Nice to see.

It's possible to speculate on a pre-existing condition I suppose. Any vet or EDT could say that mouth/gum injuries are common and often appear worse than they are due to the perfusion of blood in the area. I believe this was part of the argument against the FEI Blood Rule (lights blue touchpaper)

I remember once watching a racer being led out. He had a reputation and usually had to be ponyed for the safety of his jockey. He was being led and the commentator was speculating on whether he would behave or not as they were having trouble with him. The guy leading him looked at the camera then suddenly turned back and took the horse behind a hedge. The funniest part was listening to the commentator trying to fill time while the camera focussed on one section of hedge. After about 10 seconds the group re-emerged with the horse leading perfectly. Job done, away from the public gaze. There's a lesson there somewhere.

 

[Fellewell]

Does any of that justify tying a horse's mouth to his knee in order to force him to accept being bridled, never mind that it was in front of a crowd of several thousand people?

I know plenty of people who could have got that horse to accept a bridle, and believe I am one of them. None of us would tie the horse's leg to its mouth.

Sounds like a variation of the old-fashioned tie-down. We all use submission in one form or another don't we?

I'm not condoning questionable practice. It's the 'how', the 'when' and the 'how much' that sorts the wheat from the chaff in my experience.

Do the Whitakers have your contact details?

 

[fburton]

I assume this is tongue in cheek fburton ?

If not, then I'll repeat that I am absolutely certain that I could have got that horse which I saw on that video both in the ring and in the later training to accept a bridle.

Top three of all challenging horses? Don't be daft. It was already well handled and was leading quietly into an arena full of spectators.

It he thinks that horse is a top three a challenge, he doesn't have the experience he claims to! A top three horse would have tried to kill him, it certainly wouldn't have stood quietly with its mouth tied to its knee.

Sort of - but what is one to make of his statement?? Headshyness, though it may cause strenuous attempts to resist handling and violent reactions when attempted, is relatively straightforward to cure -- with patience, completely -- using a variety or combination of techniques (desensitization, counter-conditioning, overshadowing). Furthermore, as you say, Catwalk wasn't super-aggressive otherwise he would have attacked someone - on the contrary, in the limited footage that I have seen, the stallion was quiet and biddable (apart from hating being bridled, of course). So what was the cause and nature of this 'challenge'? Why wouldn't the standard techniques have worked with this horse? Why did Pat give up trying so quickly in the demo, and start messing around with ropes and gumlines instead? I would love to know, because I am still mystified. The only explanation that makes coherent sense to me is that Parelli's methods are, in some situations, fundamentally flawed - yet the man clearly has vast experience.

Some may say that the critics of PNH in this case have very little hard evidence to go on. I think that's a fair point, and I wish there was full, unedited official footage of the event that Parelli would publish so we call all see exactly what happened and learn from it. However, a potentially very similar pattern was played out on a Parelli DVD [*] that I watched in which Pat was dealing with a needle-shy mare. Needleshyness is like headshyness in many ways, and it can be cured using the same techniques. What I saw was a lot of roping and ponying done in a forceful, repetitive and insensitive way (giving the mare no choice but to comply), the end result of which was, to my eyes, an upset horse that had not been cured of her fear of needles. (The demo ended with a needle being stuck in her neck using the "thump, thump, in" trick, i.e. probably without the knowledge of the horse!)

When I asked on another forum whether Parelli uses counter-conditioning and, more generally, structured positive reinforcement, I was directed to Parelli's "It's about the Horse" Forum. Unfortunately, I was blocked from joining (my email address left in a permanent "awaiting authorization" state with no replies to other emails).


[*] Savvy Club DVD (May 2006) containing, to quote the sleeve notes:

"Needle Shy Demonstration" (57 min.)
with Pat Parelli, Jesse, Karen, Cash and Sage

In this demonstration Pat help's Karen's mare, Sage, with her dramatic claustrophobia and fear of needles.

While riding Cash, Pat plays the Seven Games with Sage to develop trust, leadership and expose Sage's deep fear of confinement.

This demonstration is not intended to teach the techniques for dealing with this type of problem. It is to expose how deep and severe it can be for some horses plus show the Level of savvy required to address it safely for both horse and human."

Fellewell, maybe you have seen that one?

 

[fburton]

Sounds like a variation of the old-fashioned tie-down. We all use submission in one form or another don't we?

Do we? I guess it depends on how you define it. It's a bit more than simply restraint (which I would agree we all use), isn't it? However, I'm not sure there's any place for forcing a horse to submit in overcoming headshyness.

 

[fburton]

Do the Whitakers have your contact details?

No, and I can't imagine why they would want to speak to me, given my critical stance on Parelli's handling of Catwalk! (Still, I would love to know what tricks they used to get a bridle on the horse before Pat got involved.)

 

[Fellewell]

No, and I can't imagine why they would want to speak to me, given my critical stance on Parelli's handling of Catwalk! (Still, I would love to know what tricks they used to get a bridle on the horse before Pat got involved.)

Keep up fburton! That was a question to CPT.

 

[Fellewell]

Do we? I guess it depends on how you define it. It's a bit more than simply restraint (which I would agree we all use), isn't it? However, I'm not sure there's any place for forcing a horse to submit in overcoming headshyness.

Restraint, submission. Semantics surely. I confess I don't delve into the theory of all this too much. Isn't that what PP calls 'paralysis of the analysis'

 

[Footprint]

Fburton-I'm probably stating the obvious but with the catwalk thing, I guess with an audience watching the primary was getting the result (bridle on) as quickly and by any means possible. Of course by using force this would only be a temporary solution. Did PP say he was going to work with catwalk away from the cameras? If so he has a lot of groundwork and trust to make up to that horse. Shame that he seems to know the fundamentals but would resort to such a quick fix forgetting about the horse along the way.

 

[fburton]

Keep up fburton! That was a question to CPT.

So it was - my apologies.

Restraint, submission. Semantics surely. I confess I don't delve into the theory of all this too much. Isn't that what PP calls 'paralysis of the analysis'

Yes, I've heard a similar expression. I'm fine with that as long as it isn't used as an excuse to brush under the carpet certain practices that maybe should be held up to scrutiny.

Returning to practical matters, and a general question to anyone reading this thread... Is forcible restraint really useful in curing phobias in horses?

 

[Footprint]

In answer noooooo! I can't think of anything worse unless you want an aggressive horse. When flight doesn't work aggression soon takes over. The end.

 

[fburton]

Fburton-I'm probably stating the obvious but with the catwalk thing, I guess with an audience watching the primary was getting the result (bridle on) as quickly and by any means possible. Of course by using force this would only be a temporary solution.

That's possible, I suppose - though it seems a very odd kind of thing for Pat to demo. I mean, what would the audience be expected to take away from such a display?

Did PP say he was going to work with catwalk away from the cameras?

Apparently his microphone fell off, but he carried on regardless (with music playing in the background). In an 'open letter' published in response to concerns circulating on Internet forums, he said that he should have stopped the demonstration at that point. He added: "Some people had diffculty trusting me in this situation and for that I am sad and apologize for allowing confusion to evolve" - although I personally believe that the actions of a trainer/clinician should speak for themselves, and that commentary can act as a smokescreen as much as it can clarify.

If so he has a lot of groundwork and trust to make up to that horse. Shame that he seems to know the fundamentals but would resort to such a quick fix forgetting about the horse along the way.

The thing is I'm not sure he knows all of the fundamentals! Obviously that's quite a controversial claim, but in some ways his approach seems terribly old-fashioned in its emphasis on pressure, punishment, and obtaining 'respect' and submission through physical means.

 

[eahotson]

The statement about Catwalk was evasive.I would have had a lot more respect for Pat if he has fessed up and said he made a big mistake.People do make mistakes and no one is God so I could have acepted that.

 

[cptrayes]

Sounds like a variation of the old-fashioned tie-down. We all use submission in one form or another don't we?

I'm not condoning questionable practice. It's the 'how', the 'when' and the 'how much' that sorts the wheat from the chaff in my experience.

Do the Whitakers have your contact details?

Why would they want to contact me? There are a thousand and one trainers in this country, including many people on this forum, who know how to train a reluctant horse to take a bit and bridle without tying its head to its leg.

"Submission" is freely given. Tying a horse's mouth to its leg is forcible restraint, not submission. Yes, we all use submission. Not many of us use forcible restraint.

 

[cptrayes]

Restraint, submission. Semantics surely.

Semantics? Absolutely not.

Submission would be the horse accepting the bridle when he was completely unrestrained.

 

[Patterdale]

I completely fail to see how ANYONE could defend the Parellis in the Catwalk incident.

We could go round and round in circles forever, but seriously - no one ACTUALLY thinks this was the right way to handle the horse.......do they...?

 

[Footprint]

eahotson-exactly what I was getting at. Seems like ego maybe took over so he carried on as to not get the bridle on he would have failed, seems like frustration took over, why else would Linda have had her head in her hands prob in embarrassment and horror that this horse hasnt responded quick enough and worried they were going to look bad. Again not working 'with' the horse more like putting on a 'show' unfortunately.

 

[Tinypony]

Oh, only 14 pages on a Parelli thread, standards on H+H are slipping...

 

[pip6]

I'm not into bashing a system because I think another one is 'right'. IMHO not everything works for every horse, & it is good to be open minded about possibilities that may work better for a particular horse.

That said I do have a problem, not with parelli but with the parelli's. These 2 people are meant to be the best in the world & understand the system & how to apply it safely more than anyone else. Why then in so many of the poor examples of the parelli system do they feature them? It seems their followers are more competant, caring & compassionate in dealing with equiness than they themselves. That bothers me. I'm not saying this to promote another system (natural or traditional). On here you will find plenty of examples of owners who are getting more out of their horses (including riding them) by using it, but that is my point. It scares me that the students seem to understand & practise non-aggression/non-force more than the masters. That is very odd.

I have watched the series dvd's (don't believe in not choosing something until you've tried to learn about it), seen demos at events. It's not something that I'd look for in a horse I wanted to buy. I've also 'experienced' 2 parelli horses at endurance rides when my horse was in her novice year. One was totally off its head at the start, they were dangerous. They were meant to go after me but for some odd reason I offered to let them go first as he was having very bad braking/steering issues with the rope halter he was riding it in. The other I encountered at most rides. It wasn't dangerous, just very annoying & really wound my horse up. It was slower than us, so at some point in the course we caught it up. When we to go past, it would speed up, come past then slow down again. We just wanted to go our pace, in front, behind made no difference but this pair just got in the way, no steering, no control just the horse making the choices & being a pain in the a**e. Again it was in a rope halter, no control.

Thankfully these horses don't compete anymore, & I do not know of any others competing seriously in endurance in rope halters. Plenty at trot-ups (which is fine, they are under control), but not ridden.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Thankfully these horses don't compete anymore, & I do not know of any others competing seriously in endurance in rope halters. Plenty at trot-ups (which is fine, they are under control), but not ridden.

On the subject of the knotted rope halters the parelli's use, I have just seen a Horse and Country TV advert for the new parelli series which is called 'Hit the Trail'. The advert featured a foal max 10 days old, having the rope halter put on it.

Everyone to their own, but I would have thought a soft leather foal slip is far more appropriate for such a young foal.

 

[AengusOg]

I think PP failed at the Catwalk demo because he fixated on the bridling of the horse and forgot that a demonstration of horsemanship should be just that...a demonstration of how the person works with horses, not how they achieve quick fixes.

Anything can happen in a demo situation; the demonstrator must maintain respect and empathy for the horse, and be sure not to leave it in a worse state than that in which he found it.

 

[blackandwhite]

lol, I saw your horse's name, put two and two together and realise I know him He "visited" my field one Christmas and New Year, while another of the liveries, a Parelli "expert", worked on him for the owner.

I loved him, I have to say. So did my OH. So did my horse, they were instant pals. For slightly different reasons, so did the three mares in the field (does he currently live with mares?). He had character and spark and bags of personality (NOT horsenality - I'm a psychologist and I shudder every time some made up psychobabble gets touted around). Those of us who didn't Parelli found him no problem at all. If you were clear in your communication and didn't make unreasonable demands, he was no problem at all to handle. I'm very pleased he's found a home more suited to his character

*waves to Brightbay*

Lol, everyone knows Radley! We spent all last summer listening to *whisper, whisper, whisper... "is that Radley?" and then "ooooooh, he looks like a different horse!". It's lovely that people notice the difference but quite scary that he's as notorious as he is

I'm not surprised he came to visit you rather than subject himself to the rope wiggling! A rope wiggler attempted to demonstrate rope wiggling to us when we first got him and he whipped round lightning quick and fired his back end at her!!! I think that says all he needs to say about it! He does indeed have character, spark and personality by the bucketload. After many tears, much hair pulling and god knows how many injuries we've found our feet with him (he's been for proper re-schooling) and he's loving his new active life out and about doing things. He seems to have just been really really bored before, he'd been doing pretty much just the seven games for four years!! He likes his routine and he likes to be in charge and as long as that's ok he's a poppet. Interesting that you mention the mares thing because he's very much the protector. We have two mare ponies as well and he's a like a hawk watching over them. Bizarrely he's like that with us as well, particularly my daughter. We're working on getting him "savvy" *barf* enough not to flatten everyone in his desire to be the knight in shining armour!!