What age…

[Fluffypiglet]

I’m not sure where best to post this. I was going to reopen an old thread but that was more about misbehaving smaller children so don’t want to start that off again!

What age can children be on a yard alone without adult supervision? The child in question has her own pony and appears well behaved. she lives very local to the yard and can bring herself up without her Mum or Dad being here. some believe that having a livery contract stating that parents remain responsible is sufficient and that the parents must understand that there is no ‘child care’ available at the yard. However, if child does turn up on her own and I’m the only adult there, do I legally have a duty of care? (morally is not in question! I’ve stayed whilst an older lady rode because i wasn’t convinced she was entirely safe to be left alone!)

just wondering and probably overthinking things as usual. It’s made me very concerned.

thanks

 

[Red-1]

I would say that you have no duty of care, other than as you would to any human being. Rather like if a child was in a shop and you were also shopping.

 

[Fluffypiglet]

I would say that you have no duty of care, other than as you would to any human being. Rather like if a child was in a shop and you were also shopping.

Thanks Red-1.

So I guess it comes to - if I were the only adult and child was bimbling about with her pony, would I be free to leave the yard? A massive part of me thinks not but then that’s getting into me being expected to look after child? And as I usually have things I need to do, what would I do in these circumstances? (This is the point where we might get into the debate on the other thread!)

 

[Clodagh]

Thanks Red-1.

So I guess it comes to - if I were the only adult and child was bimbling about with her pony, would I be free to leave the yard? A massive part of me thinks not but then that’s getting into me being expected to look after child? And as I usually have things I need to do, what would I do in these circumstances? (This is the point where we might get into the debate on the other thread!)

As long as she wasn’t primary school age I’d leave her, and just tell her I was going. If younger than that I would want clarification from mum or YO. It wouldn’t bother me if she was younger and knew she had to finish riding before I left, I’d extend that courtesy to anyone.

 

[Red-1]

If you were at a park and a kid was there, also using the facilities, would you feel the need to stay and supervise? I certainly wouldn't.

Has anyone asked you to supervise?

If you feel uncomfortable, just confirm with the YO/parent (pref. on text LOL) that you are not expected to stay.

 

[Birker2020]

I’m not sure where best to post this. I was going to reopen an old thread but that was more about misbehaving smaller children so don’t want to start that off again!

What age can children be on a yard alone without adult supervision? The child in question has her own pony and appears well behaved. she lives very local to the yard and can bring herself up without her Mum or Dad being here. some believe that having a livery contract stating that parents remain responsible is sufficient and that the parents must understand that there is no ‘child care’ available at the yard. However, if child does turn up on her own and I’m the only adult there, do I legally have a duty of care? (morally is not in question! I’ve stayed whilst an older lady rode because i wasn’t convinced she was entirely safe to be left alone!)

just wondering and probably overthinking things as usual. It’s made me very concerned.

thanks

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/search/2878851/?q=irish+horse+imports&o=relevance

 

[Fluffypiglet]

As long as she wasn’t primary school age I’d leave her, and just tell her I was going. If younger than that I would want clarification from mum or YO. It wouldn’t bother me if she was younger and knew she had to finish riding before I left, I’d extend that courtesy to anyone.

what age is primary school age?! ?. (Spot the non parent, hence this thread!)

 

[Fluffypiglet]

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/search/2878851/?q=irish+horse+imports&o=relevance

You’ve confused me! Is this on the wrong thread? ?

 

[Fluffypiglet]

If you were at a park and a kid was there, also using the facilities, would you feel the need to stay and supervise? I certainly wouldn't.

Has anyone asked you to supervise?

If you feel uncomfortable, just confirm with the YO/parent (pref. on text LOL) that you are not expected to stay.

i actually don’t know if I would walk off and leave a child there if no other adults were around? that what I’m trying to think through with this thread. It is really helpful to get thoughts from others. it’s a small yard with no other kids and actually very quiet and secluded. So no one would see if you’re lying on the floor for a few hours. As an adult, that’s my risk to take and my choice to decide whether to risk riding when the place is deserted.

no one has asked me to supervise (they wouldn’t be that daft!) it is me in overthinking mode…. One of the good reasons I don’t have children. I don’t trust them not to cause themselves injury near me so try and avoid wherever possible!

so, my thoughts are getting clarified into “I don’t understand children and don’t trust them to make good choices and how much is that my problem?!“ ?

 

[Clodagh]

what age is primary school age?! ?. (Spot the non parent, hence this thread!)

Under 12 ?

 

[Birker2020]

You’ve confused me! Is this on the wrong thread? ?

ha yes it is. I wondered where that had gone. Just trying to flick through quickly before I start work.

 

[Lurfy]

Our full care livery has a rule that under 15's should have a responsible adult with them.

 

[AmyMay]

How old is she?

 

[tda]

If the situation occurs again what about at least a quick call or text to either the mother or YO, just to say "I'm off, Kylie is here on the yard alone"

 

[Polos Mum]

Strangely the law doesn't specify what age you can leave a child - I guess because some 13 y/o are very mature and could cope and others much less so.
It is the parents judgement as to when they are mature enough (I know because of extensive debate with my 11 y/o that he should be left alone in the house rather than come with me to ferry his sister around !)

I think tda's suggestion is good, a quick YO text to say XXX is riding but I'm done now so she's here alone - at least will make them aware.

In law if there was an accident I guess the YO is most likely to be responsible if the parents could infer that they weren't - but I don't know that !

 

[stangs]

If you were at a park and a kid was there, also using the facilities, would you feel the need to stay and supervise?

Not even a primary school age kid, say 8 years of age?

 

[Fluffypiglet]

How old is she?

I believe she’s 11.
I am aware that I’m likely overreacting, it was a comment from her Mum and my knowledge that there are times when the yard is deserted. Yard is only deserted if YO and groom are at a show, so they wouldn’t actually be able to do anything about child being on her own even if I did text. We are full (part) livery but I tend to be up there a lot so I’m worrying about something that hasn’t happened yet!

I should probably credit her mother with some common sense but still useful to gain perspective from others!

 

[Fluffypiglet]

Strangely the law doesn't specify what age you can leave a child - I guess because some 13 y/o are very mature and could cope and others much less so.
It is the parents judgement as to when they are mature enough (I know because of extensive debate with my 11 y/o that he should be left alone in the house rather than come with me to ferry his sister around !)

I think tda's suggestion is good, a quick YO text to say XXX is riding but I'm done now so she's here alone - at least will make them aware.

In law if there was an accident I guess the YO is most likely to be responsible if the parents could infer that they weren't - but I don't know that !

thank you. She appears (from the brief interaction) to be a perfectly nice child and probably quite mature but I’ve not got a clue in reality. Ignoring what I may feel obliged to do for the child’s sake I wanted to ensure I won’t go to prison if I’m the last one to see her before leaving her alone!

 

[AmyMay]

At 11 I wouldn’t want her unsupervised.

 

[blitznbobs]

Id be tempted to have a word with parents/ yo… if you get nowhere there is an anonymous social services line. Its not acceptable in my eyes to leave an 11 year old with a dangerous animal and no one to supervise is not acceptable to me so id have to act.

 

[smolmaus]

Oof, 11 is very young. I am like yourself, I do NOT want to be responsible for a child at any time thank you but I don't think I could in good conscience leave an 11 yo by herself anywhere. It's absolutely not your responsibility at all though, this is a bad decision on the parents and the YO.

 

[Polos Mum]

I believe she’s 11.
Yard is only deserted if YO and groom are at a show, so they wouldn’t actually be able to do anything about child being on her own even if I did text.

I think 11 is young. The .gov website says "children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time" - I would take that to include doing a potentially hazardous sport unsupervised.

OP I don't think the text is to get them to do anything at that immediate time - but more to 1) be clear you are handing over any legal responsibility and 2) most importantly, to likely prompt a conversation between YO and parents regarding supervision. Your YO might not know or realise how often it's happening. I am not sure I would get involved by speaking to parents directly - I think this is a YO issue not yours.

Most YO on receipt of that sort of text would call parents and ask them to come up and supervise their kid.

 

[paddy555]

I was left alone home all day when I was 11 so I am sure she should be OK. However from your POV say a horse starts bashing around in a stable, she goes in to help it and gets kicked and killed. (that could be quite possible with colic) or a similar scenario or a stranger wanders in and rapes her. You are in the Coroner's court being the last person to see her alive. Not your fault, in fact really nothing to do with you, BUT

I would contact the YO, make sure you have a record, set out the situation and explain she will be left on her own and it is up to YO to sort out with the parents who is going to be taking responsibility for her and ask them to update you as to what has been decided.
That way if there is comeback you can point to a system being in place.
Morally is more difficult. If YO decrees she can be left can the parents set up a phone system so the kid contacts them at regular intervals?
If YO does nothing then I would contact the parents and make sure you have a record and explain the situation fully and point out it is not up to you to look after their child.
I agree with Red that if you found the kid in the park you would not feel obliged to do anything but I can see your concerns about this situation. You are sort of being backed into a corner.

 

[Clodagh]

I am sure most of us were left alone with horses at under 11. I know liability issues have changed or come to the fore nowadays though.
My son was hacking out with a friend at about 7/8. I never was much of a parent though.

 

[Alibear]

You're fine. A text to say she's there on her own when you leave would be a nice touch but not required. She is the responsibility of her parents and potentially the YO. So as long as they're happy with it then leave well alone.

 

[ihatework]

If I were a YO or parent I wouldn’t want an 11yo unsupervised on the yard.

But that is between the parents and the yard owner as to whether they are happy to take that risk. It is not on you!

In your position, I’d express to both that you are uncomfortable at times when you are the sole adult around and make it clear you take no responsibility. Then get on with your horse and life!

 

[Fluffypiglet]

Thanks all! I think I will try and get Mother’s phone number so that I can text if concerned so I can pass any responsibility on In writing! I’ve already shared concerns with YO who feels it’s firmly in the hands of her parents (YO equally clueless on small humans!). I’m just not so sure I agree. and I might also ask YO if 11yo is going to be trusted to lock the tack room… that might be a point that leads to some action!

 

[Peglo]

Could you mention to the parents about making sure she has a mobile phone with her too so she can ring if she needs help? And have the YO’s number in it.

I agree you should drop a message to the YO when you leave. It’s not your child so you can’t be expected to look after her but for your own peace of mind I would message.

 

[SEL]

YO might have something in her insurance. My friend was in your position in lockdown when the livery yard seemed to be unofficial childcare for kids off school.

I think they said under 14s had to have a responsible adult with them because the yard couldn't guarantee supervision

 

[Fluffypiglet]

YO might have something in her insurance. My friend was in your position in lockdown when the livery yard seemed to be unofficial childcare for kids off school.

I think they said under 14s had to have a responsible adult with them because the yard couldn't guarantee supervision

Thank you, I mentioned insurance last night so hopefully the YO will toddle off to investigate further. It’s apparently been made clear to the parents we will not be supervising. Which I personally feel maybe, in certain situations, easier said than done.

hopefully it will all come out in the wash as my mother used to say …. ??