what age is ok

[jollyponies]

I was sitting here thinking about breeding just in general.
At what age would you class as too young and too old to start breeding from a mare..

This is just out of intrest to see people's view's on it

 

[PrincessDana]

I personally wouldn't breed from a mare until she was at least 3 years old. Having said that some 3 year olds are still really immature looking so would maybe wait another year before breeding from one like this. If i was breeding from a young, un-proven mare she'd need to have a fantastic pedigree and come from a proven line.

Too old...hmmm thats a tough one. I know mares who are still breeding in their twenties and doing fine. I suppose it depends on the mare, personally i'd be cautious with anything over 18. Wouldn't breed a first time foal from an old mare though.

 

[amandaco2]

i would want it to be 4 or more to see how it goes under saddle
upper limit-depends on mare.first foals in older mares more risky it could be more expensive as they are more likely to slip the foal.

would get a full breeding soundness exam, on any mare anyway and go from there.

 

[Anastasia]

Minimum age would be 3, I am the opposite being a stud and want to see what kind of producer the mare will be. If I was to put all my 3 year olds under saddle I would be bankrupt very quickly......

One riding horse is more than ample.....LOL

Oldest mare would depend on the particular mare in question, how it looks, how fit and healthy etc. We had a friend in Holland with a commercial stud and his top breeding mares were in their late 20's and still breeding, all were fit, well and healthy....in fact you almost thought they were easily half their age on looking at them. He was very proud of this particular mareline for their longevity...

Its just like humans, some mares will be good breeding mares and others wont. Some will last longer than others etc, you just have to go on each individual mare.

Same goes for stallions, would never use a stallion under the age of 3 for breeding.

 

[Shilasdair]

How do you know that an unbroken 3yo (mare or stallion) is worth breeding from?
S

 

[Anastasia]

You dont!!

However, I have looked very closely at their breeding, marelines and performance lines of that particular horse. As a 3 year old the stallion will have gone through a stallion grading, would not use it otherwise.

For instance last year I put my 3 year old Sir Sinclair mare in foal to my own stallion, this year she produced a foal that got the highest marks in Scotland, when graded by Dutch and Swedish judges. Now while I understand this means nothing to yourself...

, to me this meant a lot in so far as I had bred something that an independant group of knowledgable horse breeders had said was of very good quality. It reinforced my breeding goals, and while I realise that he may only go onto to have a leisurely life (who knows), I know that "as a foal" I had bred something of good quality in movement and conformation. Unfortunately none of us, unless breeding for ourselves and keeping the offspring, have any guarantees of what they will go on and do in life, but if we give them the best start, then as breeders we have done our bit.....well thats what I think anyways....

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
You dont!!

However, I have looked very closely at their breeding, marelines and performance lines of that particular horse. As a 3 year old the stallion will have gone through a stallion grading, would not use it otherwise.

For instance last year I put my 3 year old Sir Sinclair mare in foal to my own stallion, this year she produced a foal that got the highest marks in Scotland, when graded by Dutch and Swedish judges. Now while I understand this means nothing to yourself...

, to me this meant a lot in so far as I had bred something that an independant group of knowledgable horse breeders had said was of very good quality. It reinforced my breeding goals, and while I realise that he may only go onto to have a leisurely life (who knows), I know that "as a foal" I had bred something of good quality in movement and conformation. Unfortunately none of us, unless breeding for ourselves and keeping the offspring, have any guarantees of what they will go on and do in life, but if we give them the best start, then as breeders we have done our bit.....well thats what I think anyways....

[/ QUOTE ]

Are genes so predictable in the horse...that bloodlines will automatically result in a certain phenotype?
A 3yo stallion may have gone through a grading which finds him sound...etc...and with conformation not expected to predispose to future lamenesses....but the real test would be to compete the stallion for a number of years prior to using him...and likewise the mare.
S

 

[Anastasia]

Genes can be predictable in some aspects, but one also has to take into consideration the environment that particular horse has grown up in.

For instance I know one of the gentlemen who do all the x-raying for the stallions in Holland, and he told me that he feels it will take 40 years to rid KWPN horses of the OCD hereditary trait.

He said that they only way to know if a young horse has OCD is to x-ray it as a foal and then again as a 2-3 year old. As they x-ray stallions at the age of 2.5, but that stallion may have had OCD as a foal, but because they have been given the best environment to grow up in, that by a 2-3 year old all traces will have vanished, and they may go on to become an Approved stallion.

A good competition stallion or mare does not make them a good breeder and vice versa...I guess you just have to way up the pros and cons of it all. Sometimes you will make the right decision, and other times you wont.....thats the ups and downs of breeding.....

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Genes can be predictable in some aspects, but one also has to take into consideration the environment that particular horse has grown up in.
For instance I know one of the gentlemen who do all the x-raying for the stallions in Holland, and he told me that he feels it will take 40 years to rid KWPN horses of the OCD hereditary trait.
<font color="blue"> I understand your point, but a horse buyer doesn't want a horse that you have to manage in a certain prescribed way to prevent expression of genes for OCD.</font>
He said that they only way to know if a young horse has OCD is to x-ray it as a foal and then again as a 2-3 year old. As they x-ray stallions at the age of 2.5, but that stallion may have had OCD as a foal, but because they have been given the best environment to grow up in, that by a 2-3 year old all traces will have vanished, and they may go on to become an Approved stallion.
<font color="blue"> If it still doesn't have OCD by 10yo, THEN it should be Approved.</font>

A good competition stallion or mare does not make them a good breeder and vice versa...I guess you just have to way up the pros and cons of it all. Sometimes you will make the right decision, and other times you wont.....thats the ups and downs of breeding.....

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">But you are much more likely to get a decent riding horse if you cross two decent riding horses, than if you use untried animals...or unsuitable animals. </font>

S

 

[Anastasia]

Quite.......but environmental factors always affect any form of husbandry, and its like anything be it in humans or animals, you cannot prevent everything no matter how hard you try.....

[ QUOTE ]
If it still doesn't have OCD by 10yo, THEN it should be Approved.


[/ QUOTE ] But should it..........

, as the horse did have this. Also if you were told that the 10 year old stallion you used on your mare had OCD as a foal but has not had it since, would you use this stallion, even though he was jumping at International Level....maybe this would not bother some people and it would others. The fact is for the time being we would never know anyway.


On the unsuitable remark, why would you breed with a horse you deemed unsuitable for a start??


Every single mare and stallion is untried where breeding is concerned, until such point as they are used for this purpose...whether they have competed in sport or not

. Nearly all continental Studbooks use 3 year old unproven but graded stallions to breed with in their first years, and many breeders take the chance on these sires. Maybe you should read the other post within breeding about "unproven sires" and the reasons behind whether people would take the chance on them or not.

Also there are breeders out there who believe that top competition mares do not make top breeding mares, but again this is their own opinions built up through several years experience.

At the end of the day everybody has a choice on what they want to buy or breed, and that is what makes the horse market so diverse.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
If it still doesn't have OCD by 10yo, THEN it should be Approved.


[/ QUOTE ] But should it..........

, as the horse did have this. Also if you were told that the 10 year old stallion you used on your mare had OCD as a foal but has not had it since, would you use this stallion, even though he was jumping at International Level....maybe this would not bother some people and it would others. The fact is for the time being we would never know anyway.

<font color="blue"> I misunderstood your original post...as meaning that a stallion had never had the signs of OCD, but perhaps carried the gene. I agree that any with questionable soundness should not be used.
</font>

On the unsuitable remark, why would you breed with a horse you deemed unsuitable for a start??

<font color="blue"> Well, if you breed from a 3yo, you don't have any clue whether it is suitable or not. And bloodlines are not infallible or breeding racehorses would be a whole lot easier

</font>


Every single mare and stallion is untried where breeding is concerned, until such point as they are used for this purpose...whether they have competed in sport or not

.

<font color="blue"> True, but if it's a competition horse you know it has the genes for successful traits...if you breed from any 3yo you don't have a clue. It may be true that your top notch stallion fires blanks...and we all know a few unfortunate tales...but you should breed for performance, not just reproductive soundness, shouldn't you? </font>

Nearly all continental Studbooks use 3 year old unproven but graded stallions to breed with in their first years, and many breeders take the chance on these sires. Maybe you should read the other post within breeding about "unproven sires" and the reasons behind whether people would take the chance on them or not.
<font color="blue"> I understand the lottery that is breeding from 'unproven sires', but I'm not convinced it's a good idea. </font>
Also there are breeders out there who believe that top competition mares do not make top breeding mares, but again this is their own opinions built up through several years experience.
<font color="blue"> True, but there are probably breeders out there who agree with me that you shouldn't breed from a mare because she's such a s**t that you don't want to ride her either

and we know that happens frequently </font>
At the end of the day everybody has a choice on what they want to buy or breed, and that is what makes the horse market so diverse.

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">And what makes breeding forums fun

S </font>

 

[oln]

having bred both horses and dairy cows for the last 20 years i can definitely say genetic potential is much better ascertained through their breeding lines than is ever the case on a mare or stallions individual performance under saddle. for instance take shergar great himself but not such a good stockgetter

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know that an unbroken 3yo (mare or stallion) is worth breeding from?


[/ QUOTE ]

When you're breeding pure-breds - rather than competition horses where you might be mixing breeds and looking for a 'nick' that will produce an EXCEPTIONAL horse - then bloodlines, conformation and 'type' are the tests.

I try to lightly back 3 year old fillies before putting them in foal - because it MAY be the last chance I get - some will be destined to spend their lives as brood mares unless something happens that makes them unsuitable for breeding. If they've been at least lightly backed, it's easier to then find them an alternative career.

With RIDs, the hope is that every mare will at LEAST replace herself in the breeding herd. Too many are 'lost' to a riding career until they are 15 or 16 - by which time they are harder to get in foal and more likely to have foaling difficulties.

We can't use ID stallions until they have been graded - and it's a very comprehensive grading - for conformation, type, movement, jumping ability and a VERY comprehensive vetting that goes beyond a 5 stage vetting! And if a stallion has managed to satisfy the inspectors at 3, then I'd be more than happy to try him if he ticked my boxes in other regards.

[ QUOTE ]
Are genes so predictable in the horse...that bloodlines will automatically result in a certain phenotype?

[/ QUOTE ]

In terms of conformation and type, yes - most times - IF the animals are pure-bred. Crossing results in a much more mixed and unpredictable result, of course. Because you're not just mixing sire and dam's obvious traits - there will be genes from grand-parents, great grand-parents etc. 'hidden' in each parent that could appear in one offspring of a particular mating, but not show up again if you repeated the mating 10 times! You might get the best of each parent - or the worst of each parent!

But with pure-breds it's much more consistent - although there IS still quite a lot of variation.

Example:
2 full sisters:

They're not great pictures but I think you'd spot that they were rather similar!

But I have a yearling colt who is a half-brother to these two - and FAR better than either of the two girls (much as I love them!) And a weanling filly - another full-sibling - who is much more like the colt than either of the older fillies. The colt is bay and the younger filly is chestnut (both parents were grey!) but the differences in conformation and 'type' go far beyond colour.

The Dam of these 4 is a cracking old mare who is a full sister to the very well known RID stallion Agherlow.

This is Agherlow:

This is his full sister:

I think you can see the similarities - and with their father - the great Grey Macha.

Yet my stallion, Raj, is not hugely like his father (Touch of the Blues) or like any of the other ToTB stallions I've seen. He IS - I'm assured on excellent authority - the spitting image of his maternal Grand-dam but sadly I don't have a picture of her.

Performance - though - that's FAR harder to predict. Some months ago, I researched half-a-dozen racehorses (stallions and mares) I used to look after. All were well-bred - and all had won decent races. Not one of them produced a SAUSAGE at stud!