What am I doing wrong?

[Nugget La Poneh]

Am I micro-managing nugz to the point I am creating more issues?

His grazing is managed (currently off grass due to a lami attack), he is on a cup wet weight a day of fast fibre with pro-balance, extra mag-ox, 1/2 cup of linseed, C-aid and a handful of plain straw chaff to stop him wolfing down the FF. He is on 11kg of 12hr min soaked hay in a 24hr period, has access to a pure salt lick. Bedded on easibed and stable brushed down regularly to reduce dust when he's in after he was diagnosed with heaves in the New Year

I finally managed to get him 100% sound on stones again, landing heel first, last bit of thrush clearing up etc. by having him in 24/7 with 2 x 20 min walks on the concrete/tarmac tracks around the farm for 4 weeks. So put him out in his new grass free turnout (bar the edges of the paddock). All seemed fine for the first 2 days, but we have gone back to the footiness, watery bum, general unhappiness about walking on anything other than grass or arena surface. Nothing has changed apart from him being outside 24/7 rather than inside.

Today, he has developed greasy heel on his back legs, one worse than the other. It is sore for him, but I cannot see what can have caused it. He's never had mud fever, either up here or back in Norfolk, and this appears to have sprouted to the scab stage in about 48 hours and has only appeared since coming back in over the weekend

I am waiting for poo count to come back in case he has gained a massive worm burden since the last one, and will look to get a blood sample checked for any other creepy crawlies if necessary. The vet has sort of shrugged with no real reason for the issues, so am calling on you all to suggest whether I need to back off the management and let him be, or do I need to change something somewhere? Working on the basis that mud fever has been known to reduce/disappear with the correct balance of minerals etc, and I doing something wrong?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I'm not one to fuss so you might want to ignore me.

Is the horse retired? You got him sound before so could again, then if possible start exercising him, this will help with preventing laminitis and reducing the impact of the heaves. Keep up the work once turnout starts.

I think you turned him out too soon. I thought the advice for laminitis was to keep off the grazing for one(? can't remember, its late, sorry :/ ) month after they come sound. Also you caused a sudden change of diet by suddenly turning out 24/7 after he'd been stabled 24/7. I would have started with 2hrs out combined with a reduction in hay or feed, and built it up gradually from there until he was out 24/7.

The minerals sorry I don't do all that. I feed salt in the meal if they get so hot they sweat that day. I like Feedmark supplements: I would put your horse on Slimaid, Clarity (for lungs) and Veteranaid from them, changing the Slimaid (vitamins and minerals) to Prolamin (vitamins and minerals with hoof herbs) and dropping the Veteranaid (which contains immune boosting and skin health herbs) when the mud fever clears up. Slimaid is cheaper and IMO there has to be a limit somewhere. The herbs don't have vitamins added so you can feed more than one supplement without overdosing. Veteranaid isn't marketed for skin but works to clear mud fever in mine when mud fever supplements fail.

Long term, if the pony can't work as unsound, can't breathe when stabled and can't tolerate grass without getting laminitis, I'd consider PTS due to poor quality of life. Unless you can get improved breathing and sound and in work and stabled, or sound and turned out on a non-grass area with friends to help breathing and prevent laminitis. There has to be some quality of life.

Good luck.

 

[Tnavas]

Zooom to the chemist an buy some Nizoral or Sebisol shampoo. Dilute with hand hot water and wash his legs really well - all around and above the infection. Leave on 10 - 15 mins then rinse off. Works brilliantly with Mud Fever, Greasy heel or Rain scald. And no need to pick at anything, the scabs come off easily in a matter of days. SOmetimes you only need to wash once other times you may need to wash again a couple of days later.

 

[fawaz]

Could the greasy heal actually be this?

http://www.ckequinehospital.com/page/161/Photodermatitis-Caused-by-Sun-Sensitivity

I agree with the poster above who said you didn't transition your horse from fully stables to fully turned out slowly enough.

Going from restricted movement on a soft cushioned surface and controlled limited exercise (you would walk a km tops in ten mins?) to unlimited movement on hard, uneven ground, with no control over how fast or far he moves is asking for trouble with hooves recovering from trauma.

Go back to stabled 24/7 and progress slowly. Increase the hand walks over two weeks till you are doing at least one 30+min walk a day plus a 10min one. Then replace the 10min walk with 1 hr turnout. Increase turnout by an hour each week. If you start seeing any soreness go back a step till horse isn't sore then wait a week and increase again.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

I admit I was a bit arrogant in thinking he would be okay going out 24/7 straight away as he always has been in the past, and under the same situations as before in terms of access to grass (as in none, but was on mud/dried mud rather than a hardstanding). When I say lami attack, more that he had gone footy with warm hooves, and soles changing so he came straight in before it got worse. This is what I have always done and has meant he's not gone full blown since the first time a couple of years ago. The vet he used to be under suggested 2:1 ratio of time sound to time lame, so as he was sore for about a week, I gave him 2 weeks more sound in 24/7 and ended up having an extra week while work was being done to his paddock.
I have ordered hoof boots that can be worn in the paddock for approx 8 hours a day, and he will be turned out on the hardstanding while being mucked out by OH (I am incapacitated at the moment), I will get the walks upped as well.

I think I was more thinking that reading all the blurb available, that in theory all these things (heaves, the heels, lami etc.) are linked to nutrition, but he is on the same as he is when he is sound and blemish free, and I don't know what else to try

He is 8, and it all started with concussion, never had a true hard feed (fast fibre is as hard as it gets) and I see other horses in lush cow paddocks, fed a trug full of molassed feed and fat as butter walking/trotting perfectly heel first and sound on all surfaces.

Beginning to wonder if the pony just prefers being in

 

[be positive]

I would cut out the linseed, it is only a tiny amount but if he is intolerant it could be enough, my big horse gets swollen hind legs on 1/2 a cup even out and moving all night he was coming in with big legs, stopped the linseed and they went down, it is high in protein and while it is considered safe I am a little unsure whether I would risk feeding it to a laminitic.
The extra mag ox could be causing the watery bum see if cutting that back helps, there should be sufficient in the pro balance.

 

[SpringArising]

Have you had a good look at exactly what is in the FF?

Lots of feeds will say 'Ideal for good doer' etc. and still contain hidden sugars.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Have you had a good look at exactly what is in the FF?

Lots of feeds will say 'Ideal for good doer' etc. and still contain hidden sugars.

I have, admittedly about 2 years ago, and as he is only on a cup wet weight as advised by the vet it *should* be okay. Looking at it just now, there is manganese and iron in, and in reasonably hefty amounts which I have a feeling is not the greatest for lami prone horses? Always thought FF was okay tbh

 

[EstherYoung]

Our laminitic can't tolerate FF. It was brilliant for our oldies but was a trigger for the little'un. Seeing as Wolf also has a big sign on his head that says 'when I grow up I want laminitis' I've extended the fatty paddock and they're both in there now. They get straw to eat, with a little bit of very soaked hay. The hay was also a trigger for the little'un, and not eating 24/7 was not helping his teeth. The little'un has EMS, he was diagnosed after his last attack, so he has metformin if he's looking unstable. As the vet said when we got the diagnosis, if you're doing everything right and it's still not working, then in all likelihood there is an underlying condition.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Looking at feeds now - he will not eat speedibeet, or any type of washed beet unfortunately. I can normally get him to eat things by leaving the bucket over night and his tummy takes over, but beet gets either left, or strewn about the stable in protest.

 

[TigerTail]

FF as in farriers formula or Fast Fibre?!

I suspect you have a horse who simply cannot tolerate any grass at all and would personally round up the edges of the bare paddock - when you say bare its not even got green shoots I take it? I would try him in during the day and out at night. Id also suspect the land has a massive mineral imbalance so if you're staying put get it tested.

Some really good reading on this link/

http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com

 

[Rose Folly]

Re the greasy heel / mud fever side of things, entirely agree with Tnavas. Except that I would add Polytar shampoo to that chemist's possibles list (just because it's what I use for my girl who has sallenders/mallenders (flexural dermatitis.

Re the feeding issues, all I can say is 'simple is best'. My girl has also had lami in the past. She is stabled during the day - 7 hours, and out in a muzzle for the rest of the time bar 1hour's morning free grazing. She has one supplement - Laminitic Prone from Global Herbs, and a handful of cool mix a day to get that down her, with a half-single flap of 3-hour soaked hay at lunch time.

I used to stuff one supplement after another into her and then I thought - WHY? And so far simple has worked. NB She also has had COPD/RAO which is absolutely fine now. Best of luck with your problems and I hope you find a good solution soon.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Zooom to the chemist an buy some Nizoral or Sebisol shampoo. Dilute with hand hot water and wash his legs really well - all around and above the infection. Leave on 10 - 15 mins then rinse off. Works brilliantly with Mud Fever, Greasy heel or Rain scald. And no need to pick at anything, the scabs come off easily in a matter of days. SOmetimes you only need to wash once other times you may need to wash again a couple of days later.

OH has Nizoral...not any more

 

[Gloi]

Laminitis, skin problems - Even at 8 my first port of call would be a Cushings test and possible test for EMS.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

FF as in farriers formula or Fast Fibre?!

I suspect you have a horse who simply cannot tolerate any grass at all and would personally round up the edges of the bare paddock - when you say bare its not even got green shoots I take it? I would try him in during the day and out at night. Id also suspect the land has a massive mineral imbalance so if you're staying put get it tested.

Some really good reading on this link/

http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com

Fast Fibre

What would cause a horse to suddenly not be able to tolerate grass? Bare previously was dried mud with about 4m2 total of very short grass, and about a 6 inch strip on 3 sides of short grass. Area now is completely covered, with the only grass being the edging (6 inches, although now none as him and his field mate have eaten it).

Will read the link, thanks

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Laminitis, skin problems - Even at 8 my first port of call would be a Cushings test and possible test for EMS.

Cushings test clear (although is on C-aid as couldn't get the lami version from global herbs and ingredients read the same apart from the chaste berry). EMS hasn't been tested for, but as vets out this week anyway will get them to do.

 

[chestnut cob]

I thought that very short grass was the stuff that's full of sugars, as it is the new shoots coming through? I am sure I remember reading that it is better to have the horse on long grass that has gone to seed, as it isn't full of sugar... please someone correct me if I'm wrong but just because the paddock looks bare doesn't mean there's nothing on it. It might just mean he's eating it as it comes through, which is the grass that's full of sugar.

In all honesty if the horse is continually sore without shoes then I would start off by getting some shoes on him and going from there. I like my horse to have some time out of shoes and would love him to be BF all the time if I had the time and inclination to transition (which I don't, so he just gets a few months out of shoes every year). However if the horse is sore then put shoes on. Mine had 3 months w/o fronts in the winter and 6 w/o hinds, but had the hinds put back on because he was sore. The difference in him was quite incredible - from a horse who was shuffling out hacking to a horse that was back to his normal self, striding out and bouncing around, the moment he had his shoes back on. It sounds like you've tried BF and you can't get it to work for your horse so there is no shame in trying shoes again. There is no point in driving yourself crazy with worry while you try to keep him BF. Try him with shoes; you have nothing to lose anyway since the horse is unsound BF. If he doesn't improve with shoes then you've lost nothing.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Chestnut Cob the pony has mild laminitis, not worn down hoofs.

"if he doesn't improve with shoes then you've lost nothing"

Except that shoes will increase concussion, which was the cause of the first laminitis attack. Plus raising the frog off the floor with shoes leaves the laminitics hoof poorly supported and could increase sinking or rotation. Far from losing nothing, she could lose the pony.



From your first post OP I was assuming you already knew the pony had metabolic problems of some sort. If that hasn't already been checked out by a vet, I agree with the others that now is the time to do so.

 

[ihatework]

I agree with CC.
At what price should barefoot principal take over QoL for the horse?
I'm not anti barefoot at all, but if you have given it your best shot maybe its fairer on the horse to change their management.

The linseed comment is interesting. One of mine tested highly allergic to linseed (he was also diagnosed cushings at 7) and speaking to independent nutritionist & allergy specialist this was not a common allergen at all. In fact I have not heard of another horse with this allergy!

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

I thought that very short grass was the stuff that's full of sugars, as it is the new shoots coming through? I am sure I remember reading that it is better to have the horse on long grass that has gone to seed, as it isn't full of sugar... please someone correct me if I'm wrong but just because the paddock looks bare doesn't mean there's nothing on it. It might just mean he's eating it as it comes through, which is the grass that's full of sugar.

In all honesty if the horse is continually sore without shoes then I would start off by getting some shoes on him and going from there. I like my horse to have some time out of shoes and would love him to be BF all the time if I had the time and inclination to transition (which I don't, so he just gets a few months out of shoes every year). However if the horse is sore then put shoes on. Mine had 3 months w/o fronts in the winter and 6 w/o hinds, but had the hinds put back on because he was sore. The difference in him was quite incredible - from a horse who was shuffling out hacking to a horse that was back to his normal self, striding out and bouncing around, the moment he had his shoes back on. It sounds like you've tried BF and you can't get it to work for your horse so there is no shame in trying shoes again. There is no point in driving yourself crazy with worry while you try to keep him BF. Try him with shoes; you have nothing to lose anyway since the horse is unsound BF. If he doesn't improve with shoes then you've lost nothing.

He's never had shoes, and has nothing to shoe against and I don't think he would keep them on currently. Might look into glue ones if this is a viable route.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Chestnut Cob the pony has mild laminitis, not worn down hoofs.

"if he doesn't improve with shoes then you've lost nothing"

Except that shoes will increase concussion, which was the cause of the first laminitis attack. Plus raising the frog off the floor with shoes leaves the laminitics hoof poorly supported and could increase sinking or rotation. Far from losing nothing, she could lose the pony.



From your first post OP I was assuming you already knew the pony had metabolic problems of some sort. If that hasn't already been checked out by a vet, I agree with the others that now is the time to do so.

The cushings was done on the off chance when he had the concussion as the young vet that initially attended to the concussion and initial lami attack, was very up on it and I think was of the opinion what while the clinical signs pointed to concussion, there was no reason for it to progress like it did. I might see about getting him tested again as it was 2ish years ago, along with EMS.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

I agree with CC.
At what price should barefoot principal take over QoL for the horse?
I'm not anti barefoot at all, but if you have given it your best shot maybe its fairer on the horse to change their management.

The linseed comment is interesting. One of mine tested highly allergic to linseed (he was also diagnosed cushings at 7) and speaking to independent nutritionist & allergy specialist this was not a common allergen at all. In fact I have not heard of another horse with this allergy!

The linseed is interesting, he has been on it for a while with no obvious issues, but did change brand which looked and smelt different to what I was used to, and thinking back it was around this time the watery bum happened.

 

[chestnut cob]

Chestnut Cob the pony has mild laminitis, not worn down hoofs.

"if he doesn't improve with shoes then you've lost nothing"

Except that shoes will increase concussion, which was the cause of the first laminitis attack. Plus raising the frog off the floor with shoes leaves the laminitics hoof poorly supported and could increase sinking or rotation. Far from losing nothing, she could lose the pony.

.

Putting shoes on is not going to lead to the pony being PTS. It is merely a way to possibly eliminate something else. The horse is doing badly in without shoes so trying him *with* shoes might tell the OP something. If the horse comes sound then it's entirely possible the horse is one of those who might just do better with shoes. If he doesn't then since he was lame before shoes, he is still lame in shoes, so OP can take them back off and go from there.

My understanding from the OP's post was that the pony was lame anyway and isn't coming sound. Which suggests to be that being BF isn't currently working for him. It seems like OP is driving herself mad worrying about every little thing. I have been there. I had a horse with some issues and I drove myself crazy looking at him continually. So I put his shoes back on, he improved dramatically and I regained my sanity. The horse is sore. Try him in shoes rather than continue BF for the sake of being BF. The horse is sore w/o shoes so try shoes to see if that helps, even if it is only temporary. In the short term try to make the horse comfortable.

 

[lottiepony]

Just to chuck this one into the mix but does he actually need any feed at all? what does he weigh? what's his condition score? can he not just do with soaked hay?
priority is getting him sound again though and people have posted some good ideas/routes for you to try

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Just to chuck this one into the mix but does he actually need any feed at all? what does he weigh? what's his condition score? can he not just do with soaked hay?
priority is getting him sound again though and people have posted some good ideas/routes for you to try

Need, no - only to get in the powder balancer. That's why he's on about 3 mouthfuls of the fast fibre and chop. Any less and he refuses to eat it

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

This is him about a week ago - 440kg according to weigh tape. He is the same weight on the tape as he was when he was fit enough for a 20 mile fast ride in September:

He's a touch under 15hh, takes 6'6 rugs

 

[Brightbay]

Some of us have found the ProBalance+ just doesn't have the oomph required to deal with metabolic issues. I tried both the ProBalance+ and the ProHoof, but didn't start to see results until I used the Forageplus Performance Balancer. I would suspect this as an issue for you, especially as the diet you describe is effectively no fresh grass so very low indeed in Vitamin E, and the ProBalance+ only has 1000iU (half what's in the Forageplus). The Forageplus people suggest using their winter balancers for horses who don't get fresh grass in the summer to compensate for this. Deficiencies in Vit E often show up with horses getting little opportunistic infections, skin problems etc. - and higher levels of zinc can help with this too.

Given what a worry you're having, I'd be going for the highest spec balancer you can get with respect to zinc, copper and vit E?

 

[Gloi]

Have you tried him in boots at any time?

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Have you tried him in boots at any time?

Yes, and it does reduce the footiness. Boots for turnout being picked up today hopefully so he can have more turnout and movement as he is more than sound on a surface/concrete etc.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

However, he has now gone on hungerstrike unless it is hay (soaked) as he seems to think we are poisoning him with something, so either we are and he's telling us this, or he's just being a mardy little toad so back to the drawing board with that one I think as need to get his mins in him!