What am I doing wrong?!

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palo1

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Very grateful for any suggestions here!! I am not sure if anything is amiss with my wee Irish terrier pup - we are off to the vet later just to have a check up but really, in spite of me trying to everything 'right' he really hasn't 'got' the whole housetraining thing :( I had him at 8 weeks and initially things seemed to go really well with just the odd accident. Now, at 4 months (and a week!) although wees are mostly outside, he is pooing inside quite often and sometimes at night in his crate. I initially crate trainined him because I have another, older dog and needed to ensure they were safely separated: they are now the best of friends and happily play and sleep together which is lovely. By this age I had planned to get rid of the crate: both dogs sleep in the utility room and that is where they are 'confined' when I go to work. At this point he is not in the crate at all during the day (well the door is open but he mostly chooses not to be in it) and frankly it is small enough now. Beacause of various complicated and weird shaped pipes he can't have a bigger crate in 'his' space though he could have a bigger bed which I am planning to get him today. I am going to shed the crate completely as it is so horrible thinking of him pooing in there at night: whatever the problem is I think it would be better if he just pooed away from his bed if he has to!!

He is fed 3x daily at 8.00 am, 2pm and 7pm but I wonder if I should try to change these a bit. He is eating a grain free, high quality dry food (60% meat/fish that is fresh rather than 'meal') but I am happy to change that and could potentially do a higher protein or raw diet. Breeder recommended Akela or Eden but because of my older dog I have stuck to what I know: very happy to review that now though. Eek to raw but happy to give it a go. My poor lad literally poos 6 x a day - huge meaty poos too though not with a particularly foul odour and very healthy looking!! He is not especially big but what comes out looks like it belongs at least to a border collie/large spaniel!!

His routine is kept pretty much the same all the time: out at 6.00 am for 30 mins: usually wee and poo, out again at 7.30 - usually a wee, sometimes a poo, Fed at 8.00 then out again for a wee/poo at about 8.30-8.45 am. He is then generally in the utility room till around lunch time (I am at work every morning or use that time to ride/do various not dog friendly jobs).

Lunch is at 2pm having previously been out at 1.00. Afternoons are quite 'relaxed' - I am often outside doing animal related jobs or will take dogs out for a walk, visit friends with dogs, go somewhere with dogs accompanying!! We always go out at 3.00 pm, 5pm and usually again around 6'ish. Tea is served at 7pm with pup out either straight away or within 20 mins then again we have usually a quiet evening till going out for the last time at 10.30.

He is almost invariably clean during the mornings. (from 8.30-8.45 am - 1pm) He is also almost entirely reliably clean in the house proper - usually only ever has accidents in the utility room. I have used every product I can to keep the floor, bedding etc clean when there has been a wee/poo. I have to say that the wees and poos are creeping closer to the back door as time goes on...is that progress?! It is also night time and around 7.00 am that we seem to have the regular accidents though I can't persuade the poor chap to poo often just before bed time at 10.30 pm. Would feeding earlier help - is earlier going to leave him for too long without grub? Water is available all the time though I do only leave a little bit in his crate at night as I don't want him to soak his bed if he tips it.

I am now on leave from work for a month so I can really address whatever is going on....Today I am going to remove the crate which isn't really needed and doesn't seem to be helping. He will get a new bed with new vetbed (so no smells) and I can either change his routine or his food or both! In every other way he is fab and 'normal' (ie mad, playful, very sweet and tries very hard to please!!). A pic of his loveliness too :)

Am I feeding too late in the evening/too much/wrong sort of food? I know that he goes out frequently enough and I praise him quietly when he wees and poos outside. I have never scolded him for going inside but clear up and just ignore/move on when he has an accident but I would really like to get this sorted if possible. Thank you for any advice/suggestions/sympathy!!
 

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You have all my sympathy! We had 2 JRT's that never were completely reliable with house-training, you had to watch them closely to catch the right moment for them to go out. I was told that it's a terrier thing but I'm not sure that it wasn't just idiosyncratic to them! apart from those 2 every dog I've ever had and it's a good few over the years, has been clean with poos overnight before being able to control weeing.

Reading your daily routine, it does seem to me that your feeding times are all quite close together. Ours eat last thing at night and go out immediately afterwards and then don't need to go out again until morning. It might be worth feeding later, although you will need to move feeding time gradually, I would think.
 
I am no expert but I would say it's the food 3 times a day that is probably causing it, I would cut it back to 2 feeds a day I have never fed a dog 3 times a day, and I would much earlier than 7pm, his belly is probably just full all the time dogs are not designed to eat that often, and with him still being fairly small his having to poo all the time and it's probably impossible for him to stay clean through the night.

I would then get in a routine of feeding and timing it with outside toilet breaks, and have a very late in the evening toilet break, I trained mine to go outside then as soon as they go straight back in with lots of praise.
 
Pinkvboots said:
I am no expert but I would say it's the food 3 times a day that is probably causing it, I would cut it back to 2 feeds a day I have never fed a dog 3 times a day, and I would much earlier than 7pm, his belly is probably just full all the time dogs are not designed to eat that often, and with him still being fairly small his having to poo all the time and it's probably impossible for him to stay clean through the night.

I would then get in a routine of feeding and timing it with outside toilet breaks, and have a very late in the evening toilet break, I trained mine to go outside then as soon as they go straight back in with lots of praise.
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At 4 months I don't think there's anything wrong with feeding 3 times per day.. In fact our 6 yr old Rotters still have 3 meals per day because we don't want to overload their stomachs at each but they need a lot of food because of their size and level of activity.
 
Definitely look at changing meal time. Also if you can give going to loo a name. Sounds gross but my friend taught her puppy to do ‘busy’ safe in public! Worked a treat for her.
 
He's gorgeous. For what it's worth, he's still very young. Some of my dogs were toilet trained at 6 weeks, while a couple didn't get it until they were 4-5 months old, despite being very bright and well behaved. Surprisingly, they just 'clicked, perhaps it was the influence of the older dogs who were very tolerant of the puppies, but their input in their training was impressive.
Getting rid of the crate and old bedding is a good idea to break the association eith undesirable behaviour. Scrubbing the room with diluted white vinegar should help to eliminate the smells that dogs can still smell.
Could you change his routine slightly to change his habit, by giving the last feed earlier and making the main walk of the day in the evening ? Walking is better than having free time in the garden to encourage pooing .
 
Pearlsasinger said:
At 4 months I don't think there's anything wrong with feeding 3 times per day.. In fact our 6 yr old Rotters still have 3 meals per day because we don't want to overload their stomachs at each but they need a lot of food because of their size and level of activity.
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I agree but this dog sounds like his always full so needing to go to the toilet more so just thought he would manage with 2 feeds, or perhaps 3 smaller feeds maybe it's just too much.
 
Aw thanks all! Generally all the 'outside' time is purposeful - i.e we are walking round the fields, playing definate games or doing some sort of play/training. I only allow him to 'mooch' when I really want him to go to the loo late at night. I have wondered about feeding 2 times a day and that is one reason I was going to quiz the vet - I can certainly feed earlier in the evening and earlier in the morning but as there seems no rhyme or reason to the poo schedule I can't quite work out when would be good! This morning, as well as an overnight poo in the crate he has also done 3 giant poos outside: surely that suggests too much food going in? Never had a dog that poos so much tbh!!!

I am thinking that perhaps the last feed at 5pm and just making lunch time a smaller meal might help...
 
Pinkvboots said:
Our word is wee wee' s lol!
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Yes, he has 'wee wees' as a command word too and actually is pretty good in that respect. We don't have many wee accidents inside, just the 'big jobs' lol!! I have, from day one used 'Go, poo' and then praise but I suspect that there is just too much going through his system (either in quantity of feed or not quite the right feed) to contain! Poor chap, it is hateful for them to poo in their beds :(
 
Pinkvboots said:
Our word is wee wee' s lol!
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Mine too!

I also have a treat cupboard by the back door. Whippets can be sods to house train, a bit of rain and they dont want to even think about going outside! So as puppies its a treat for every wee and poo and as adults its a treat when it rains or is cold or they just generally dont fancy it. Standing at the back door with a delicious treat in hand focuses the minds of greedy dogs very quickly!

We touch wood, havent had an issue in years. Floyd was house trained fro 7 weeks. He just got it. My older dog was a different kettle of fish and I still dont quite trust him and hes 9 this year!
 
Not had a problem with the girls but the boys have always taken longer to get it it sounds like he poos a lot though so maybe the food is full of bulking agents which dogs do not need so maybe a change of diet to smaller feeds more densely nutritous would help
 
First thing I would is change that late feeding time , I would perhaps try reducing the size of the last feed drastically as well
 
I am amazed at the amount of poo your dog is producing. :eek: I would change the diet. If you feed raw I suspect you will have a lot less. With your current diet your dog's guts must be permanently full. He is producing more poo than my fully grown 50kg GSD. If you don't want to feed raw you could try feeding cooked meat, anything to reduce the bulk he is having.
He seems to be having lots of long walks and spells outside. I would put him at at 6 am but only for a few minutes whilst he has a pee etc, then feed immediately, perhaps a 2nd feed at 11.30am and a third feed at 3pm. That should give him plenty of time to dispose of it before bedtime.
If he is clean in the house but not the utility does he realise the utility is part of your house? in his view it may not be and he may think he is doing it in the correct area.
Is he making any connection to the idea that he goes out for 2 separate purposes. One is to poo and the other to go for a walk/ play etc. Would it work better if you put him out specifically to wee/poo and then reward and bring him straight back in. You say all your outside time is purposeful. Perhaps that is a mistake, he may need to learn that going out for 5 minutes to do it is simply that. Lead and your coat goes on and he is off for a proper walk.
 
I agree with the others, I would cut down on his food and also go to 2 feeds a day, how is his weight ? With my present dog who I got in early summer I just left the back door open and he went out if he wanted or needed to and I also fed him outside. He never went in the house and it sounds a bit like yours thinks it’s ok to go in the utility room, you need to tell him that it’s not ! He’s a lovely dog but by his age he should have got the message.
 
it sounds to me like you are feeding him far too much - or, he is snacking elsewhere. Is he ever unsupervised outside, could he be filling up with horse poo for example .

3 meals a day at this age is right but Id take him off the food he is on, some of these diets are just too rich, no matter how brilliant they are supposed to be. Some of the cheaper, less rich foods like Skinners actually suit better sometimes. If he was mine Id put him on Nutriment or Natural Instinct raw, go very canny with the amounts and makes sure nothing else is going in. Keep the crate for now and make sure you are letting him out and give a command for toileting.. you need to try and break the habit and he wont want to soil his bed area if he can help it. My WCS pup is the same age and we feed at 8am, 12 and 4. He is our 12th dog, so Ive a wee bit of experience. As a guide, they should poo the same number of meals they get in a day roughly.
 
Leo Walker said:
Mine too!

I also have a treat cupboard by the back door. Whippets can be sods to house train, a bit of rain and they dont want to even think about going outside! So as puppies its a treat for every wee and poo and as adults its a treat when it rains or is cold or they just generally dont fancy it. Standing at the back door with a delicious treat in hand focuses the minds of greedy dogs very quickly!

We touch wood, havent had an issue in years. Floyd was house trained fro 7 weeks. He just got it. My older dog was a different kettle of fish and I still dont quite trust him and hes 9 this year!
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Amazing what you can achieve with a few treats and learned words, I can yell biscuits when I am out and my dog comes straight back.
 
palo1 said:
Yes, he has 'wee wees' as a command word too and actually is pretty good in that respect. We don't have many wee accidents inside, just the 'big jobs' lol!! I have, from day one used 'Go, poo' and then praise but I suspect that there is just too much going through his system (either in quantity of feed or not quite the right feed) to contain! Poor chap, it is hateful for them to poo in their beds :(
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I agree I think it's just too much going in and what goes in has to come out lol!

If he looses weight you could try a high concentrate food so they don't have to consume so much.
 
Think about the size of his internal organs and think about the amount of food he is getting every day, and amend accordingly, do NOT feed by the guide on the packet, feed by your eye.
My large adult dogs are fed 2-3 times a day and do 2 poos a day, three max.
One of mine also won't go unless he's had a good run to get him moving.
 
Daisy wasn’t reliable until she was about 8 months old. And at 4 months old I was still taking her out for a 1.00am toilet break.

I too would look at your feed times. I still feed three times a day (she’s 5 years old), and feed at 7.00am, 1.00pm and then at about 6.00.

She poos twice a day.
 
NeverEver said:
it sounds to me like you are feeding him far too much - or, he is snacking elsewhere. Is he ever unsupervised outside, could he be filling up with horse poo for example .

3 meals a day at this age is right but Id take him off the food he is on, some of these diets are just too rich, no matter how brilliant they are supposed to be. Some of the cheaper, less rich foods like Skinners actually suit better sometimes. If he was mine Id put him on Nutriment or Natural Instinct raw, go very canny with the amounts and makes sure nothing else is going in. Keep the crate for now and make sure you are letting him out and give a command for toileting.. you need to try and break the habit and he wont want to soil his bed area if he can help it. My WCS pup is the same age and we feed at 8am, 12 and 4. He is our 12th dog, so Ive a wee bit of experience. As a guide, they should poo the same number of meals they get in a day roughly.
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Yes, he blooming well does snack on horse poo and with relish!! I do think I am feeding too much of something: his current food is grain free, 60% meat and is almost identical in analysis to something like Arden Grange but I am quite happy to change. My local dog food shop (a really lovely one) suggested reducing his middle of the day meal, bringing the late meal much earlier and really checking on the quantity that he is actually fed before a change in feed. That seems like a good place to start but his crate has gone for now as I want to try to break the association of pooing in bed.
 
At 4 months I was still feeding 3X daily although that was a bigger breed pup and at that age I was still up late with mine (ie 11.30-12pm) and letting him out again at 5.30.

He's still very young OP but what I'd suggest is that you make sure that he poos before bed (take him for a walk if needs be but he stays out until he does) and look at diet too if he's going 6x a day.
 
paddy555 said:
I am amazed at the amount of poo your dog is producing. :eek: I would change the diet. If you feed raw I suspect you will have a lot less. With your current diet your dog's guts must be permanently full. He is producing more poo than my fully grown 50kg GSD. If you don't want to feed raw you could try feeding cooked meat, anything to reduce the bulk he is having.
He seems to be having lots of long walks and spells outside. I would put him at at 6 am but only for a few minutes whilst he has a pee etc, then feed immediately, perhaps a 2nd feed at 11.30am and a third feed at 3pm. That should give him plenty of time to dispose of it before bedtime.
If he is clean in the house but not the utility does he realise the utility is part of your house? in his view it may not be and he may think he is doing it in the correct area.
Is he making any connection to the idea that he goes out for 2 separate purposes. One is to poo and the other to go for a walk/ play etc. Would it work better if you put him out specifically to wee/poo and then reward and bring him straight back in. You say all your outside time is purposeful. Perhaps that is a mistake, he may need to learn that going out for 5 minutes to do it is simply that. Lead and your coat goes on and he is off for a proper walk.
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Yes I am amazed too!! My older dog does 2 perfectly normal and reasonable sized poos a day and is on the same food (though adult version) as pup! Clearly diet has a role to play and as he is very healthy and poos are good there is probably too much of something going in. I will work harder to stop him eating horse, sheep and chicken poo which he hoovers up whenever I am not actively preventing him. I will also bring all the mealtimes earlier in to the day so there is time for him to poo before bed. Some really helpful answers here so very grateful for all these ideas. I am confident he doesn't have a 'problem' as such but needs clearer 'rules', less food and a different schedule! I will work through all 3...:)
 
Pinkvboots said:
I agree I think it's just too much going in and what goes in has to come out lol!

If he looses weight you could try a high concentrate food so they don't have to consume so much.
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By high concentrate do you mean an 80:20 food - raw or dry? I haven't wanted to feed that high a concentrate because I assumed the protein level might just be too high but I will try reducing current grub this week and see what happens!
 
NeverEver said:
if he is snacking on horse poo there you have it - he will be pooping for Team GB. you HAVE to stop him swallowing anything else but his meals to break this habit.
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Ah yes, too much horse poo would certainly be part of the problem :( How, though do I stop him ? I know that sounds daft but I have worked hard to get him so that he happily trundles round the field with me whilst I poo-pick, feed etc and that fits in to our day as a part of his outside time though he does have time 1-1 with me walking,playing, visiting etc as well. I do want my dogs to come out onto the yard and it is vital that he is part of the operation with the horses, sheep and chooks here so I can't entirely avoid horse poo. He is, in fact, really good at sticking with me and not wandering off which is excellent!! Also, if I reduce his proper dog food, the horse/sheep/chicken poo will be even more desirable...
 
wren123 said:
So is ours, something I regret when telling dog sitters!

OP, we had the odd poo in the morning, stopped completely when we cut out the evening meal. I can't remember how old she was but still very young.
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Funny how we all seem to use the same words, it sounds even funnier when I hear my muscled up oh saying it to the dog in exactly the same tone I use when he lets her out:D
 
palo1 said:
Ah yes, too much horse poo would certainly be part of the problem :( How, though do I stop him ? I know that sounds daft but I have worked hard to get him so that he happily trundles round the field with me whilst I poo-pick, feed etc and that fits in to our day as a part of his outside time though he does have time 1-1 with me walking,playing, visiting etc as well. I do want my dogs to come out onto the yard and it is vital that he is part of the operation with the horses, sheep and chooks here so I can't entirely avoid horse poo. He is, in fact, really good at sticking with me and not wandering off which is excellent!! Also, if I reduce his proper dog food, the horse/sheep/chicken poo will be even more desirable...
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he is very young to be part of the operation so to speak - he isnt trained yet ;) hence your problems.
train him NOT to eat the poo and until you cant, make sure he is supervised at all times, otherwise you are just setting him up to fail :(

ps i am on a croft with 22 ponies , various sheep and a lot of free range poultry. I do feel your pain!
 
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