What are all the BAREFOOTERS FEEDING?

From reading Feet First - Project Dexter is giving some very interesting results, and is supported by vets. Good science I think!!
I also follow Rockley farm and Lucy Priory's blogs - they are helpful enough to post links to books, papers etc when it shows something relevent. These sources can be written by farriers, doctors from human orthopedics etc.
No foot no horse is also a really useful book with very interesting pics.
 
where is there any scientific results of barefoot practice in "no foot no horse ", or for that matter in any equine periodical recognised by veterinary and farriery bodies anywhere globally
chris
 
I'm not interested in specific results that point towards barefoot being the way forward.

What I am interested in is information on the effects of shoeing and not on the hooves, bone density and soundness. From what I have read I am inclined to think that not having my horse shod is the way forward to offer her a long working career with healthy hooves and legs and minimal lameness issues.

I most certainly don't just hunt out info to back up my opinion - that is hardly educating oneself is it?!
 
Well, thank goodness the writing I have found and those I have spoken to aren't the majority you seem to have come across!
 
My ponies all get:

Alfalfa Pellets
Carob Kibble
Black oil Sunflower seeds

Adlib hay

They all look very well on this from my 2 year old to my 14 year old riding pony to my 29 year old retired pony.

I tend to think of my horses as just not needing shoes, that is why they don't have them. If a problem arose and a shoe was the answer so be it. But no shoes works fine for all of us and I have boots incase of an 'emergency'.
 
FestiveNeighs said:
meow!!

I am new to reading up on 'barefoot' stuff. I used forums and books etc from that background as it was the only place I could find the information I was after as I felt that my knowledge of how my mares hooves worked was basic at best. I have found it to be well based in science (I hate theories that aren't based on solid science foundations!) and extremely informative.
If I could have found the information from a more mainstream source then all well and good and tbh I would have prefered it as I do worry (turns out that worry is unfounded) about a bias - but the information considered 'mainstream' is usually to shoe your horse and that horses without shoes can't do much roadwork. Not very useful, informative or based on scientific fact!!
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I have to agree that when searching for information on the web about anything to do with horses feet, page after page that comes up on the search engines comes from Barefoot devotees. I haven't seen any scientific facts yet, hence my frustration with their research. It seems to comprise of antedotal accounts. When I asked for solid evidence that barefoot trimming 'cures' horses with navicular syndrome, with a specific diagnosis, I was informed that it was too expensive to have an MRI to prove what they already knew. Really ? Blind faith is great for them, but what about those 'poor misinformed' owners who believe the vets and farriers ? Is the barefoot movement so lacking in funds that they cannot invest in scientific proof ? Maybe the trimmers should charge more..

The book 'No Foot, No horse' is excellent, co- written by Master farrier Martin Deacon, who's knowledge is second to none in the field. Having had him turn around a horse of mine, I am indebited to his expertise. The horse, TB, whose feet where so poor that they were falling apart and couldn't hold a shoe for more than a few days, is, 8 years later,still doing XC, ODE and jumpcross, aged 23yrs. Has never had a days lameness or been prone to losing shoes since Martin sorted his feet out and instructed the horses farrier (who he had trained).
 
All I feed him is alfa a oil redigrass and vit/min supplement.
In summer without the redigrass.
Always ad lib hay

And he is fine never had any problems
 
horserider said:
I have to agree that when searching for information on the web about anything to do with horses feet, page after page that comes up on the search engines comes from Barefoot devotees. I haven't seen any scientific facts yet, hence my frustration with their research. It seems to comprise of antedotal accounts. When I asked for solid evidence that barefoot trimming 'cures' horses with navicular syndrome, with a specific diagnosis, I was informed that it was too expensive to have an MRI to prove what they already knew. Really ? Blind faith is great for them, but what about those 'poor misinformed' owners who believe the vets and farriers ? Is the barefoot movement so lacking in funds that they cannot invest in scientific proof ? Maybe the trimmers should charge more..

The book 'No Foot, No horse' is excellent, co- written by Master farrier Martin Deacon, who's knowledge is second to none in the field. Having had him turn around a horse of mine, I am indebited to his expertise. The horse, TB, whose feet where so poor that they were falling apart and couldn't hold a shoe for more than a few days, is, 8 years later,still doing XC, ODE and jumpcross, aged 23yrs. Has never had a days lameness or been prone to losing shoes since Martin sorted his feet out and instructed the horses farrier (who he had trained).
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I feel your frustration! Esp for those struggling with a lame horse and trying to do the right thing - what ever that is!!
Re. info on barefoot helping horses with navicular - Rockley Farm are running work called Project Dexter which alongside vets (horses are on a vet referal to Rockley) is rehabing horses with navicular with vet lameness assesments before and after the rehab. I believe there are MRI scans for some of the horses before rehab, but as they are covered by insurance - when the horse is no longer lame the insurance is understandably unwilling to cover the cost of another MRI so they don't have them for afterwards. I believe that they are trying to work with B&W vets at the new equine hosp they are building to see if they can get some funding to get after MRI scans as well as before.
 
thank you horserider , you have a better way with english than me , i agree about martin i learnt a lot from him many years ago but as i tried to point out he shows no scientific research on barefoot protocol in his joint venture "no foot no horse ". i work in the veterinary /farriery world and to the best of the practice knowledge there is no official scientific research documented on any barefoot protocol , all writings are only anecdotal as you rightly point out and it is very well presented but lacking in actual true fact
chris
 
ferrador said:
thank you horserider , you have a better way with english than me , i agree about martin i learnt a lot from him many years ago but as i tried to point out he shows no scientific research on barefoot protocol in his joint venture "no foot no horse ". i work in the veterinary /farriery world and to the best of the practice knowledge there is no official scientific research documented on any barefoot protocol , all writings are only anecdotal as you rightly point out and it is very well presented but lacking in actual true fact
chris
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Chris I hope this is just your command of English, which is very good for a non native speaker, but just because something is anecdotal does not mean it is not fact.

It is anecdotal that my rehab was to be put to sleep the day after I agreed with his owner to take him on. It is anecdotal that he has been sound for months and is jumping and competing. Both anecdotes are also fact. I'm far from alone in having these anecdotes to tell people about.
 
evidence in the form of an anecdote is called anecdotal , the evidence is considered untrustworthy . this statement is fact in any court of law and any anecdote is only that persons opinion not fact and should never be considered so
chris
 
horserider said:
Yes.

First, there is no "barefoot movement" in any sense of a co-ordinated campaign. There are only individuals, like me, and no, I cannot justify £1000 to MRI my rehab, however interesting that would be for all of us. I paid £700 in food and care to save his life, how much more of my blood do you want?

If trimmers charged enough to cover the costs of MRIing rehabs, how would they get any work, no-one would pay them?

Rockley has had 17 succesful rehabs in Project Dexter (and several before that). They charge what the market will bear. The owner earns a darned sight less than she did in her previous career and certainly cannot pay £1000 per rehab from the fees she gets for "proving" that the horses she sends home sound are cured.

Why should the owners pay? They know the horse is sound. They have already spent enough getting it sound, often in the teeth of incorrect advice from farrers and vets. If people out there want this information - open your wallets then!!! But for goodness sake stop whinging that those of us who are curing these animals can't pay for it. If I have £1000 to spare what would you prefer me to do - return another horse to health, or have it put down and pay for the MRI on the one I've already done???

I find it absolutely astonishing that we have had the number of cures that we have had, of horses who had maxed out insurance claims and had every treatment under the sun and were still lame, and yet neither the veterinary profession nor the farriery profession are remotely interested in investing money in research for the good of the horse. Perhaps it's because it is not in farriers' interests to lose money from not having to do heart bars and wedges, and not in the vets interests to find a drug free (profit free) cure.

My hope lies with the insurance companies. I am waiting for the actuaries to wake up and realise that they have no need to pay big loss of use or death claims on horses with navicular syndrome. When the people who will actually gain financially, the insurers, cotton on, then you can bet your bottom dollar someone's going to start paying some attention to the sheer number of horses coming sound with barefoot rehabs by amateurs and minimally trained trimmers when the best expertise of the veterinary and farriery professions could not get there.
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ferrador said:
evidence in the form of an anecdote is called anecdotal , the evidence is considered untrustworthy . this statement is fact in any court of law and any anecdote is only that persons opinion not fact and should never be considered so
chris
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Go sit in a court Chris. People's opinions are taken as evidence in every single trial, without exception.

What fascinates me about farriers like you, Chris, is that if I were in your situation, I would be taking up the offers from people like me to show you what we have done. I'd be begging Rockely to show me their facilities, methods, current rehabs and records of past patients. Then you could decide with your own eyes whether we are telling the truth. Instead, you prefer simply to be rude and write off our achievements, however numerous, as bullshit. Worse still, you will probably recommend some poor owner, sooner or later, to have a much loved horse put down because you and the vet between you cannot get it sound, and it will break the owner's heart, completely unnecessarily. You do your profession no favours with your abusive postings on this board.

My second hope is that some day soon Nic Barker is asked to be an expert witness in a case of Mrs Heartbroken vs Mr Closedmind MRCVS seeking compensation for the unnecessary death of her horse with "incurable" DDFT foot lameness. THAT'll focus people's minds!
 
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My horse is one of the project dexter horses.
The clinic where he had the MRI is also carrying out a research project following up all the horses MRI'd so I have a view on 2 projects.
Neither are talking about repeat MRIs and you would think the clinic that owns the MRI machine would be perfectly able to provide these as the costs would be far lower as all they have are their costs.
The research is being gathered by sending owners questionnaires asking them to assess how their horses are doing.
So I am being asked to assess my horses lameness on a scale before the MRI, after treatment and a year on.
No one asked what the treatments were and as the clinic did not treat him they don't know what we tried.
There is a section for me to add details and notes I.e. Anecdotal

Yet that research when published because it comes with the name of a well respected clinic and veterinary college will not be questionned in the same way.
 
it is time to face real facts , we are all been conned by each other , we need each others money to live, i practice farriery and most lameness cases can be solved with time without shoes or fancy trimming just plain common sense but the real world will not accept reality .
chris
 
SirenaXVI said:
*claps*

Totally agree - and so do my unshod horses :)
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*claps too*
Waits to be shot down.

Both mine are unshod,old one was shod when i got him,when i retired him had shoes removed. I didn't change his food,his feet are fantastic,even the farrier has said how good his feet are,he is 28 now.

As for fatboy he has never been shod,farrier says he doesn't need shoes as his feet are sound and i ride him.

Feed for old one is.

16 plus mix and alfa a oil chaff,haylege,and grazing everyday in winter.

Only grazing in summer.


For the fat boy is.

Cool mix and apple chaff,haylege,and grazing everyday in winter.

Only grazing in summer.
 
I'm a bare foot trimmer and all my 6 horses from foals stallions, two my 22 year old Mair are fed young stock and stud mix, at lib ryegrass cover mix haylage, a bit of micronized barley, the olny one that feed is diffrent is my cob stallion as i drive him out allmost evey day 15miles, he is on micro feed, we love the snow know mud :cool:
 
ferrador said:
it is time to face real facts , we are all been conned by each other ,.....................most lameness cases can be solved with time without shoes or fancy trimming just plain common sense but the real world will not accept reality .
chris
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I, and I suspect most people reading this, have never conned (ie deliberately mislead in an attempt to gain by it) anyone since I became an adult.

The second half of your statement I completely and wholeheartedly agree with. What baffles me is why you respond to me and to other people advocating barefoot treatment of foot-lame horses as if we are recommending anything other than no shoes and no fancy trimming.

I have been posting on here for three years now and I have never seen anyone advocate any trim which could possibly be called "fancy". Strasser apart, which has been rightly vilified (and successfully prosecuted!) all the trims practiced in this country (UKEP, AEP, UKNHCP, ANHCP, "home-grown") have much more in common than they do any differences. All listen to the horse about the foot it knows it needs. All have "do no harm" as a guiding principle.

Why are you so hostile, Chris, when on a fundamental level we all agree?
 
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my horses are unshod (farrier trimmed every 4-6 weeks) and in work

fed on winergy senior plus alfabeet in small feeds 3x day
in summer they get winergy low energy.

in at night on hay, hay out in the fields now too.
 
cptrayes said:
I, and I suspect most people reading this, have never conned (ie deliberately mislead in an attempt to gain by it) anyone since I became an adult.

The second half of your statement I completely and wholeheartedly agree with. What baffles me is why you respond to me and to other people advocating barefoot treatment of foot-lame horses as if we are recommending anything other than no shoes and no fancy trimming.

I have been posting on here for three years now and I have never seen anyone advocate any trim which could possibly be called "fancy". Strasser apart, which has been rightly vilified (and successfully prosecuted!) all the trims practiced in this country (UKEP, AEP, UKNHCP, ANHCP, "home-grown") have much more in common than they do any differences. All listen to the horse about the foot it knows it needs. All have "do no harm" as a guiding principle.

Why are you so hostile, Chris, when on a fundamental level we all agree?
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This ^ (written better than I could!).
I've only been on H&H a year or so, and heard that there could be a way to have a working horse without shoes (despite riding for nearly 20 years, and being a horse owner for around 10 of those) as it wasn't something I had considered or had seen in that time. I was merrily going along doing what I had always done blindly assuming I was doing the best!
In all that I have read I have (well, 99% of the time - there is a token odd ball or three vouching for odd treatment in whatever subject area you research!) the only 'directions' (if you could call them that) are to feed a healthy diet and to trim only what and when is needed. Much more hands off and with a basis on only doing what is needed to help the horse to grow and use a healthy hoof. The horse does most of it, with assistance from the owner to feed and exercise it - which would be considered a good approach regardless of what you do or do not decide to fix to the hoof! Hardly hocus pocus bulls**t and totally free of cons!!

Thanks for the useful link intouch - not come across that before. I shall be hoof nerding for the rest of the day now!!
 
Chris
I don't think I've been conned.
Not by the vets and farriers who did their best but maxed out my insurance claim with treatments that had no effect. They just wanted to do the best by my horse and felt the need to do something, anything, even if these were not backed up research and of dubious value. They wanted to make my horse sound almost as much as I did.

Certainly not by Rockley who rehabbed him for me for less than what I pay in full livery in Herts. It's not rocket science but still better done by someone who's done it dozens of times and I would have struggled to find the time in winter..

And back to the diet, I cwrtainly haven't been conned into that, it works out much cheaper than feeding a fancy balancer and expensive mix.
 
ferrador said:
the truth is that the majority of BAREFOOTERS are FEEDING the general public nothing but bullshit
chris
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Can you clarify? What exactly is the bullshit we are feeding people?

My three pieces of advice to potential new clients or anyone with an intersted are:

1) Yes horses can work hard and compete without shoes - not bullshit as there are many thousands of examples around, including my own horses.

2) Horses should be fed as natural diet as possible - as close to what they evolved to eat, which is a low sugar/low starch diet, high in fibre. Again surely you don't think that is bullshit/

3) Horses should be kept in as natural environment as possible for their best mental and physical health. Bullshit? I don't think so...

So what exactly do you mean?
 
If most lameness cases can be solved in time without shoes then isn't it a bit of a 'con' opting for expensive remedial shoeing?
Mine is barefoot, sound, happy and has been in work for many years without shoes.
I don't believe I've been 'conned' by any barefoot preacher, I did my own reading on the subject and followed my instincts and this was after traditionally shoeing for many years including all the horse keeping family generations before me. I've found most trimmers supportive of owners wanting to maintain their horses feet between trims or even trim themselves and what can be more money saving than that along with a cheaper high fibre diet that is more beneficial to a horses overall health than expensive concentrates.
 
My unshod horse has Baileys Lo-Cal in the Summer and this winter their Performance conditioner. I feel this is the easiest way to ensure he has a balanced diet. Analysing forage would not be practical as the yard buys hay from many sources. He has been unshod (barefoot?) since August and his feet are still improving as are his way of moving and his top line. Science is very useful but individual cases have a way of demonstrating what works for them. I am monitoring the changes he is going through and checking him for any possible muscle or foot soreness. As long as he is doing well, he will remain unshod. Otherwise, I will reconsider how I am managing him. I respect the opinions of farriers, barefoot trimmers and vets but my horse shows us what suits him.
 
intouch said:
For anyone that really wants to read up some research and publications, Dr Bowker has done a fair bit as well as Rockley.
http://www.coronavistaequinecenter.com/publishedarticles.html
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The first link for Equine Soundness shows that the team who run the programme (and the courses done almost exclusively, except for a few days practice,) were all Strasser graduates. That inspires confidence..
My concern with barefoot trimmers is the training and no recognised standard of practice. Anyone can do an internet course, practice on a handful of horses and go off and practice. Some work part time after 'qualifying',whilst keeping another job as their main work. How does their expertise compare with the training for farriery ? These courses cost serious money- and still no one can afford to pay for an MRI scan ?
 
horserider said:
The first link for Equine Soundness shows that the team who run the programme (and the courses done almost exclusively, except for a few days practice,) were all Strasser graduates. That inspires confidence..
My concern with barefoot trimmers is the training and no recognised standard of practice. Anyone can do an internet course, practice on a handful of horses and go off and practice. Some work part time after 'qualifying',whilst keeping another job as their main work. How does their expertise compare with the training for farriery ? These courses cost serious money- and still no one can afford to pay for an MRI scan ?
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Did you read it? they explain why their research led them to MODIFY their work from what they had been taught by Strasser. That makes them a damned sight more open minded than many vets and farriers for all their training.

If someone has, say £5000 to spend on qualifying as a trimmer, why do you expect them to spend that on MRIing 5 horses? One will get them a training which will let them save horses from being put down or prematurely retired. The other will make you a little happier. If you want it, why don't YOU pay for it? Those of us who are producing the cures don't need any more proof. If YOU do open your damned wallet and pay for it then!



ps in case anyone hasn't guessed, I am now absolutely sick of people suggesting that because we can tell people that a barefoot cure is possible for many foot lame horses that it is somehow also our responsibility to fund exeptionally expensive diagnostics to prove that it works. If you want to see that it's worked come and watch some these horses enjoying a sound life. Any time, just PM me and I'll set it up and show you his "before" xrays. A dozen people on here would offer the same.
 
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cptrayes said:
Did you read it? they explain why their research led them to MODIFY their work from what they had been taught by Strasser. That makes them a damned sight more open minded than many vets and farriers for all their training.

If someone has, say £5000 to spend on qualifying as a trimmer, why do you expect them to spend that on MRIing 5 horses? One will get them a training which will let them save horses from being put down or prematurely retired. The other will make you a little happier. If you want it, why don't YOU pay for it? Those of us who are producing the cures don't need any more proof. If YOU do open your damned wallet and pay for it then!



ps in case anyone hasn't guessed, I am now absolutely sick of people suggesting that because we can tell people that a barefoot cure is possible for many foot lame horses that it is somehow also our responsibility to fund exeptionally expensive diagnostics to prove that it works. If you want to see that it's worked come and watch some these horses enjoying a sound life. Any time, just PM me and I'll set it up and show you his "before" xrays. A dozen people on here would offer the same.
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Nope, I have a field full of horses in full work and enjoying life, both shod and unshod. My horses are sound and well looked after by a good old fashioned farrier, who has worked with thousands of horses in his career, who keeps up to date with new research (my mare is wearing some shoes a collegue in Germany sent to him to trial.) And travels to the US for demos, clinics and competitions.
If you guys want to have credibility, start acting like professionals and not internet trained hobby trimmers.

Yep, did read the first link. They were Strasser trained who moved on.They do not comdemn the method that was hailed at the time as the answer to hoof problems. Even though, anyone with a modicom of common sense could see it was barbaric. Has their judgement improved now or are they just jumping on the bandwagon to make a fast buck with their own training schemes ?
 
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