What are all the BAREFOOTERS FEEDING?

[intouch]

Nope, I have a field full of horses in full work and enjoying life, both shod and unshod. My horses are sound and well looked after by a good old fashioned farrier, who has worked with thousands of horses in his career, who keeps up to date with new research (my mare is wearing some shoes a collegue in Germany sent to him to trial.) And travels to the US for demos, clinics and competitions.
If you guys want to have credibility, start acting like professionals and not internet trained hobby trimmers.

Yep, did read the first link. They were Strasser trained who moved on.They do not comdemn the method that was hailed at the time as the answer to hoof problems. Even though, anyone with a modicom of common sense could see it was barbaric. Has their judgement improved now or are they just jumping on the bandwagon to make a fast buck with their own training schemes ?

I'm really glad that there are progressively minded farriers out there and that you have found one.

How you imagine anyone chooses to make a "fast buck" out of being hauled around a muddy field by untrained horses who don't particularly want to be trimmed, well, I can't imagine. Any trimmers I have met have trained because they believe it is the right thing for the horses, and any owners I know employ them for the same reasons. Even if they don't always train their horses so well.

Get a grip.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I'm really glad that there are progressively minded farriers out there and that you have found one.

How you imagine anyone chooses to make a "fast buck" out of being hauled around a muddy field by untrained horses who don't particularly want to be trimmed, well, I can't imagine. Any trimmers I have met have trained because they believe it is the right thing for the horses, and any owners I know employ them for the same reasons. Even if they don't always train their horses so well.

Get a grip.

'Making a fast buck'- your sentiment, not mine.
As for being hauled around a field..hmm. Bit worrying, hopefully, anyone who wants to work with horses has some degree of horsemanship. I've watched farriers cope with seriously challenging horses, but fortunately they have the training to deal with difficult situations or the sense to stop and have a word with the owner about their responsibility to train the horse.- Or in extreme situations, have a vet present.
I agree that the trimmers I have met - and know as friends, have trained for genuine reasons,although,I've not yet been fortunate enough to meet one I'd let pick my horses feet out.

 

[intouch]

Has their judgement improved now or are they just jumping on the bandwagon to make a fast buck with their own training schemes ?

I was quoting your post. Don't loose any sleep over it.

 

[Tnavas]

Grass - mine have never been shod are trimmed by a UK qualified farrier - I'm a terrible mother - when in work they get crushed barley, linseed and meadow chaff. They run around in five acres - are never strip grazed - mumma is a tad on the large size but still went for a blatt around the paddock this evening. Also have a big multi mineral lick so they can help themselves.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I was quoting your post. Don't loose any sleep over it.

Ah, sorry, missed your last post, I'd gone to sleep. Yep, you're right, I did refer to the folk offering internet 'training' schemes as making a fast buck. (the schemes are considerably shorter than the training for farriers, who actually train with horses.Now thats a radical approach.) Not the poor trimmers chasing horses around muddy fields.

 

[vicky_sut]

My welsh D and tb are on the same thing fast fibre with micronised linseed and minerals that have been worked out from grass and hay analysis. Then tb gets as much hay as she wants and welshie gets 2 large slices of hay as she is a good doers.
Nothing special
I think people see nice feed ads in mags and on websites and pay a fortune for different feeds that they often dont need. As an example a lady I know feeds her 4 a mixture of bluechip, alfa a, bran, pony nuts, limestone flour, sugar beet and a few more things that I cant even remember it must cost her a fortune.

 

[Oberon]

Not really wishing to get into this debate all over again as it's nothing to do with the OP - however - have you really NEVER seen a farrier hit a horse with a rasp?

 

[Tnavas]

Reading all these posts makes me even more convinced that if we went back to feeding UNPROCESSED feeds then we wouldn't have all these problems.

For 40 yrs or more my horses have been fed, Crushed Barley or Oats, Meadow Chaff, Sugar beet - the mollased kind and linseed. I've rarely had a lame horse in all that time - my riding school horses and ponies - 32 of them - lived out 24/7, ponies unshod, hacks just fronts - rarely ever lame - the odd abscess. As one person commented on feed companies are interested in profit margins and do well because people have been brainwashed into believing that thire horse MUST have a feed that has been formulated.

I wonder sometimes how horses managed to survive all these centuries considering they were fed oats and shod!

A recent research done on the New Zealand wild horse population - the Kaimanawas - has shown that despite no intervention from man they showed signs of chronic laminitis and deformed feet, with flares and cracks. So much for the wild horse trim!

I will not let a barefoot person anywhere near my horses as I have seen so many made sore by over trimming! I have a great respect for my farrier who I know has spent over 4 years training, he spent some of his apprenticeship with my old farrier from the UK. I trust him as he has extensive Practical knowledge - not the odd weekend course or training via the internet.

 

[cptrayes]

If you guys want to have credibility, start acting like professionals and not internet trained hobby trimmers.

I AM an internet trained hobby trimmer and I am proud that I have managed to developthe knowledge and skill to keep this horse hunting (and others eventing):

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/TOvlktjYQHI/AAAAAAAAAqg/NHHYx77wYNo/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg

and to have restored to full work this horse with navicular disease confirmed by xrays that was unsound after well over £5000 of the best that the veterinary and farriery profession could offer him. Picture taken less than twelve weeks after removing shoes, horse drug free.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/S_qlcddqf3I/AAAAAAAAAqQ/nX0WnA3DEZg/s1600/IMGA0007.JPG

If an internet trained hobby trimmer can achieve these results doesn't it raise some questions about why many farriers can't?

You have a great farrier. Lucky you. Unluckily, I didn't. On second thoughts, I am lucky because otherwise I would never have discovered how to keep horses unshod, even the ones people would say "they can't all do it you know!" Why shoe horses if they don't need them?

 

[cptrayes]

Reading all these posts makes me even more convinced that if we went back to feeding UNPROCESSED feeds then we wouldn't have all these problems.

A recent research done on the New Zealand wild horse population - the Kaimanawas - has shown that despite no intervention from man they showed signs of chronic laminitis and deformed feet, with flares and cracks. So much for the wild horse trim!

.

I think you are right on the diet.

And being right on the diet explains the NZ research. Wild horses left in an unnatural place. Too much green stuff and not enough scrub and movement. No intervention, in the wrong place, is not "natural" it's "neglect". Those horses were not native to NZ they are descended from imports genetically designed for a much poorer environment. You'll see exactly the same thing if you look at the feet of New Forest ponies. I doubt you'd find the same thing in a Shetlands kept Shetland.

 

[cptrayes]

Horserider I want to ask you the question you have already failed to answer once.

Let us paint a scenario. There are five main trimming organisations in this country, four very small with limited resources. The large one with plenty of resources is the Worshipful Company of Farriers who show no interest in funding research into barefoot treatment of foot lameness whatsoever. One of the small ones has sufficient resources to train five new trimmers who will then be able to cure horses with navicular syndrome. If they finance 5 MRIs for the research you want to see, they have to put their fees up and will only attract four new trimmers who can afford to train.

Do you want them to spend their money on MRI's or do you want another trainee trained who will save several horses from being put down or pensioned off early. You cannot have both, the world does not work that way.

For the sake of the argument, please give me the credit of assuming that I and the other people who say we have cured horses are telling the truth and can show you sound horses and proof of how lame they were. And that there are four organisations operating in this country providing lengthy* hands on, practical and theoretical training which is effective in giving them the skills to resolve the issues of a horse with lameness in the navicular syndrome spectrum.

What is your answer to that question? Save a horse's life or provide you with some reassuring pictures?

*not four years but they don't need to learn how to bend metal and apply shoes, or "pay back" a master for the time he has spent training them, so 4 years is not required

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Horserider I want to ask you the question you have already failed to answer once.

Let us paint a scenario. There are five main trimming organisations in this country, four very small with limited resources. The large one with plenty of resources is the Worshipful Company of Farriers who show no interest in funding research into barefoot treatment of foot lameness whatsoever. One of the small ones has sufficient resources to train five new trimmers who will then be able to cure horses with navicular syndrome. If they finance 5 MRIs for the research you want to see, they have to put their fees up and will only attract four new trimmers who can afford to train.

Do you want them to spend their money on MRI's or do you want another trainee trained who will save several horses from being put down or pensioned off early. You cannot have both, the world does not work that way.

For the sake of the argument, please give me the credit of assuming that I and the other people who say we have cured horses are telling the truth and can show you sound horses and proof of how lame they were. And that there are four organisations operating in this country providing lengthy* hands on, practical and theoretical training which is effective in giving them the skills to resolve the issues of a horse with lameness in the navicular syndrome spectrum.

What is your answer to that question? Save a horse's life or provide you with some reassuring pictures?

*not four years but they don't need to learn how to bend metal and apply shoes, or "pay back" a master for the time he has spent training them, so 4 years is not required

Interesting why the WCF isn't funding research into the barefoot trim. Why do you think that is ?
Interesting also, that with the price of these internet training schemes for Barefoot trimmers, (not regulated by any governing body), no profit seems to be going into producing any valid research data.
Perhaps you feel 4 years is not required to produce a competent practitioner. How many horses do you feel it is needed to see and work with before you master your profession ? Or do you feel that the internet provides enough, with a couple of weekends practical, to train to the required standard ?

'Save a horses' life or give me reassuring pictures ?' Oh great, next time my horse requires surgery, should I believe a vet who offers to operate with no evidence that the procedure is a cure or just believe the smooth talking of an over confident expert with no recorded research.
I require facts and data so I can make an informed decision. Heart warming stories are lovely, but not science. Why is that so unreasonable to you ?

 

[fabulous_fi]

Just nothing to do with the argument brewing about trimming and worshipping farriers...

but is anyone else feeding just pony nuts and a little speedibeet with adlib hay? My5 yr old cob is happily wintering out at mo and has not lost any condition at all...her hooves are in great condition at mo too. after reading all the wonderful things people are feeding is making me wonder.....

 

[mrdarcy]

Just nothing to do with the argument brewing about trimming and worshipping farriers...

but is anyone else feeding just pony nuts and a little speedibeet with adlib hay? My5 yr old cob is happily wintering out at mo and has not lost any condition at all...her hooves are in great condition at mo too. after reading all the wonderful things people are feeding is making me wonder.....

Simple is best - if it's working then stick with it.

Regarding internet training courses for barefoot trimmers... please do your research first before you slag off our training. My training was done in four different countries, I saw huge numbers of real live breathing horses, trimmed countless numbers of hooves, and passed my final practical exam under the watchful eye of a trained farrier (admittedly one who refuses to put shoes on horses these days - he really is an example of an enlightened and progressive farrier!). My initial training was done by Jaime Jackson who is THE source for all barefoot theory and practise, the guy who did all the research into the wild horse hoof and himself was also a farrier for 25 years before ditching the metal.

We now have LANTRA National Occupational Standards that are far more thorough and indepth than the farrier equivalents. I don't doubt that the farrier apprenticeship is very thorough training on how to shoe but I do wonder how much is taught about a good trim... and by that I mean a barefoot trim where the horse will be working hard without shoes. I pick up quite a few horses that have previously been trimmed by farriers and almost without exception they leave the hoof wall too long. I very commonly hear with horses that have previously been shod in front but are unshod behind that the farrier very rarely touches the hinds. Yet when I pick these hind feet up they are desperately in need of a good trim. I also wonder what farriers are trained to do with regards trimming of the sole before putting a shoe on. I removed a bunch of shoes today - horses shod by two different farriers. But all the horses had a huge amount of dead sole that clearly hadn't been touched in a while and massive folded over bars - why hadn't the respective farriers been dealing with these things? Another thing I see an awful lot on recently deshod horses is a stretched white line - clearly something that has been ongoing for a while. Yet the farrier keeps putting a shoe on top, hiding the white line from the owner, saying nothing, no advice on diet or anything. Time after time when I point it out to the owner they are shocked - they had no idea anything was wrong. In fact so many knowledgeable horse owners I visit have no idea what the white is or should look like - quite shocking as it's health is such a clue to the health of the rest of the horse. But then again as the white line is always covered by the shoe maybe it isn't surprising. What the eye can't see the mind can't wonder about...

Amd the reason I trained as a barefoot trimmer? I saw what a huge benefit going barefoot was for my own horses - happier,healthier, sounder - and I wanted to provide this service to as many horses and their owners as possible, so they could reap the benefits like I have. I do it because I love horses and want what's best for them and I believe barefoot is best. When you take the shoes off a horse that has been written off by both vets and farriers, whose only other option is PTS, and with trimming and dietary changes becomes sound, happy and ridden again, when you have the owner in tears of joy at the fact they have their horse back - that's why I do it.

 

[cptrayes]

Interesting why the WCF isn't funding research into the barefoot trim. Why do you think that is ?
Interesting also, that with the price of these internet training schemes for Barefoot trimmers, (not regulated by any governing body), no profit seems to be going into producing any valid research data.
Perhaps you feel 4 years is not required to produce a competent practitioner. How many horses do you feel it is needed to see and work with before you master your profession ? Or do you feel that the internet provides enough, with a couple of weekends practical, to train to the required standard ?

'Save a horses' life or give me reassuring pictures ?' Oh great, next time my horse requires surgery, should I believe a vet who offers to operate with no evidence that the procedure is a cure or just believe the smooth talking of an over confident expert with no recorded research.
I require facts and data so I can make an informed decision. Heart warming stories are lovely, but not science. Why is that so unreasonable to you ?

None of the trimming organisations I listed are internet only. All offer lengthy courses. You could have found that out with a little research but you don't want to know the truth do you?

I note that you STILL aren't prepared to answer the question. To answer yours, I think that the WCF are not currently funding barefoot research because they are scared to death that if they find expensive remedial farriery is not necessary to cure "navicular" horses and that most horses do not need shoes at all, their whole empire will collapse and their members will all be bankrupt because most of them are wedded to a £60-80 a set shoe model.

There is NO PROFIT in the barefoot trimming associations in the UK, they are running on the goodwill of their senior members doing work for no pay. FACT. They are doing it for the good of the horse. What are YOU doing for free for the good of the horse, may I ask????

Why is your attitude unreasonable to me? It is unreasonable to me that you continue to abuse trimmers and disbelieve those of us who have cured navicular horses with a barefoot regime when we are offering to show you with your own eyes the horses concerned. I would rather trust my own eyes than the vets who have more than once given me incorrect advice in over 30 years of horse owning. If you can't trust your own eyes , then you can't but for ****'s sake will you either open your own purse or shut up suggesting that the rest of us should open ours for your satisfaction???? Tell me, how much are you personally prepared to stump up to see the research that you want to see? Nothing? I thought so. So why should you think that anyone else should, do please explain?

 

[cptrayes]

Too late to apply this edit so I will copy it again in full:


None of the trimming organisations I listed are internet only. All offer lengthy courses. You could have found that out with a little research if you had wanted to.

I note that you STILL aren't prepared to answer the question. To answer yours, I think that the WCF are not currently funding barefoot research because they are scared to death that if they find expensive remedial farriery is not necessary to cure "navicular" horses and that most horses do not need shoes at all, their whole empire will collapse and their members will all be bankrupt because most of them are wedded to a £60-80 a set shoe model.

There is NO PROFIT in the barefoot trimming associations in the UK, they are running on the goodwill of their senior members doing work for no pay. They are doing it for the good of the horse. What are YOU doing for free for the good of the horse, may I ask????

Why is your attitude unreasonable to me? It is unreasonable to me that you continue to abuse trimmers and disbelieve those of us who have cured navicular horses with a barefoot regime when we are offering to show you with your own eyes the horses concerned. I would rather trust my own eyes than the vets who have more than once given me incorrect advice in over 30 years of horse owning. If you can't trust your own eyes , then you can't but for ****'s sake will you either open your own purse or shut up suggesting that the rest of us should open ours for your satisfaction???? Tell me, how much are you personally prepared to stump up to see the research that you want to see? Nothing? I thought so. So why should you think that anyone else should, do please explain?

You seem never in your life to have come across an instance, never mind personally experienced one, when the "expert" was not right. You've never had a child with meningitis sent home from hospital with a treatment for flu to die when a dose of antibiotics would have saved it. You've never had a vet allow a horse to turn skeletal and bite its own sides in pain for six months because kidney failure just isn't something that happens to horses. I hope for your sake that you never do. But if you do, you'll lose your faith in infallible experts overnight, and begin to trust what you see in front of your own eyes.

In the meantime I would be grateful if you could stop offending me (and the dozens and dozens of other people like me) by suggesting that what I managed to achieve with a horse which had been written off by his farrier and vets is not what I saw. I repeat my offer. If you want to see the horse and his "before" xrays, I would be pleased to show you him at any time, and I believe I can find a number of other people who will offer the same. But if you prefer to stay closed minded, so be it, just for all our sakes can't you give it a rest now about the funding of research that no-one can afford except those who have a lot to lose if it works, vets and farriers.

 

[cptrayes]

Mr Darcy I have a theory about stretched white line. I've had a number of horses over the years where the farrier tells me they are going to make the foot bigger because it is too small and proceeds to shoe them wide to make this happen. I think they like a bigger foot because it gives them more room to put a nail in without risk of a pricked foot.

I am NOT suggesting all farriers do this folks, but in over 30 years, it's happened to me with more than one horse by more than one farrier in more than one part of the country.

Fabulous_fi you sound as if you have good varied grazing for your cob, and if you are lucky enough to have that, and not the lush diary ryegrass found in many livery stables, your cob is probably self-balancing and has no need of the supplements that some of us feed. I, for example, have hill meadow but a drastic mineral imbalances, (high manganese, high iron, high acidity, low calcium) so I have to supplement to correct that. I also work my horses very hard, so supplement to make sure that they can cope with sweating out big amounts of electrolytes. Your case sounds lieke on of "if it ain't broke don't fix it"

 

[intouch]

but is anyone else feeding just pony nuts and a little speedibeet with adlib hay? My5 yr old cob is happily wintering out at mo and has not lost any condition at all...her hooves are in great condition at mo too. after reading all the wonderful things people are feeding is making me wonder.....

http://thunderbrook.co.uk/app/download/3106767802/Some+ingredients+of+processed+horse+feeds.pdf

Sorry, this is very slow to load - essentially it says - binding aids - molasses - up to 15%, sulphite lie which can cause alergies, clay - the same clay as in cat litter. Oatfeed - a waste byproduct from the milling industry, can contain 500 times the level of mytoxins allowed in human grade Porridge oats. Wheat middlings - waste by-product of flour. Grain screnings - fine particles and dust. Bakery waste and outer husks of peanuts. Preseritives, Transfats. Thats just a few.

I know the above is published by a feed company who are promoting their own feedstuff, but if there's just a chance that it has an element of the truth in it, it's enough reason for me not to feed pony nuts to my horses.

Barefoot trimmers - I don't think you need to defend yourselves in the face of someone who is determined to remain ignorant - there's none so deaf as those who have an axe to grind.

Keep on doing what you're doing - and I know that includes looking at all the new information as it comes along and learning from it, for the benefit of the horse.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

So many points, I'm not sure I can cover them all in the few minutes I have.

No, I have never seen a farrier hit a horse with a rasp, but then I wouldn't expect one to in my presence unless he was either very brave or stupid.
The NOS standards are currently being formulated with consultation from all relevant equine professionals, including farriers, vets and trimmers. It will be a part of farriery appreniceship training as well as a standard of practice for trimmers and other equine professionals.
It is not a legal requirement. Farriers and vets are bound by legal requirements and recognised training.
I would like to see some regulation for barefoot hoof care workers, a standardised training scheme and registration. Would you not agree that bad practice in barefoot trimming exists ?
I am not anti barefoot at all. I see it as ideal and am currently working with my farrier to sort out the feet of a 4 year old that was fully shod at 3, before it was in work. This is what really makes me angry. Slapping shoes on babies. He is on the end of the phone and comes to advise for free when ever I have a question.
Yes, I do a lot for horses for free. Two of mine were advised to be shot by experts due to severe health/ behavioural issues. They are now fit, trustworthy and able to be ridden by anyone. I have recently taken on another because its owner cannot afford to keep it and has felt overhorsed. I hope to return to her a good, safe riding horse when her finances improve. I also care for a couple of others whose owners have lost interest and had pretty much abandoned them to become overweight, neglected animals.
No, I would not pay for an MRI scan, I do not have the funds,like yourselves, my time and money is totally dedicated to the horses in my care.
No, I certainly do not trust all vets, farriers, trimmers or any other professionals unquestioningly. I rely on gut instinct, question always, but I like to have scientific proof as a starting point. As already said, currently, 2 of my horses are alive today because I ignored professional advice.
I am frustrated with bad practice and carefully choose the experts I have and work with them, not accepting of what I'm told without knowing why. there are vets and farriers I wouldn't let near mine and unfortunately, the trimmers I have encountered have left me unimpressed.
I would love to meet barefoot experts that are extensively trained and knowledgeable, I respect the work of Jaime Jackson. I would like to see te qualitity of barefoot practitioners training improved and regulated and research funded. My argument is with the cowboys who are currently answerable to no one.
I do not believe that farriers and vets have a desire to keep horses lame in order to make money. Certainly not the ones I have met, who are passionate about equine welfare -or maybe thats just because I wouldn't use anyone who wasn't. There are good and bad in every profession, but at least vets and farriers are answerable in law.
Enough of my rambling, but, I am most definitley, pro keeping horses unshod and I don't find it unreasonable to question the qualifications and lack of research data in the barefoot trimming movement.

 

[LucyPriory]

I agree that there are good and bad in every profession.

Some of the horses I work on have been badly trimmed by a barefoot trimmer (never an AANHCP one though, yet).

Many of the horses I take on have had shoes put on feet that were in no state to take them.

I have only deshod one horse that was well shod and had balanced feet, and that one still had nails through its white line. The others with one exception have had nails through the sole.

So my opinions are biased because I tend to only get 'failures'.

Mostly the problems with both shod and bare feet stem from a general lack of understanding of the underlying issues with that particular horse.

There are horses that manage very well regardless of what is thrown at them and what they are fed. Jolly good for them and their owners.

Then there are those that end up with the PTS option because they are not doing so well. The sad thing is that these horses can often be relatively easily and cheaply brought to good health by someone like CPTrayes who knows what they are doing.

But MRI scans don't fix anything and they do cost money that most of us would be better spending on something else.

It would be great to have more research, but in all my studies I find that most research is done to find a market for products.

It is hard to find products to sell along side the concept of allowing horses hooves to function as nature intended. Although some are trying.

I understand JJ who I trained with is planning to come to the UK next year, so anyone who wants to can go talk to him themselves.

 

[brucea]

Erm Horserider - I have seen a farrier hit a horse wiht a rasp, and beat it quite badly - and this was a well respected one. It happens, don;t be naieve


Anyway - that was a good bun fight to read

I have a horse with suspected DDFT lesions and navicular damage and I'm thinking of having his feet chopped back and the most humungous wedge bar-shoes put on that my farrier recommended, but before I do can anyone tell me if there are published papers backed up by MRI scans, before and after of course, of every horse that has been treated during the study and showing a 100% success rate?

Until then I will leave him barefoot becuase he actually has been sound these past 24 months and rampaging around the countryside at all paces. Of course - I don't know if he is sound becuase I have not done MRI scans to prove he is sound - but he looks sound to me and to my vet.

The horses that end up at Rockley have been through the mill - had all the injections, shoeing options and everything else - that IS the long road and requires patience.

I've been there - seen what Nic does - and seen what can be done in the space of 12 weeks - that's 2...or TWO shoeings Chris. I've also seen Nic work out that one shaky horse was having muscular problems simply becuase of a supplement that the owner had it on - very subtle and in 3 days I saw that horse improve - so it's about a holistic approach and not all abotu feet

Me - I have no patience and want things fixed - so I'll say no thanks to a year of different shoes, a sore horse, big vets bills, big farrier bills and deep and heartbreaking uncertainty, with possibly an awful outcome, and keep my horse's feet as nature intended.

I want things fixed in 2-3 months by allowing nature to work as nature intended to work, removing all interference, providing correct diet and movement.


Believe me - I WAS on your side Chris - I WAS barefoot hostile and insisted all mine were shod. Somehow I always had ill or unsound horses in my string. Not any more. It took a huge effort to swallow that first slice of crow pie and take that step to simply questioning everything I thought I knew.

Now - if you want to get into really interesting territory - let's talk abotu the effect that shoes have on the riders themselves....any physios, bodyworkers on here want to pitch in?

 

[spookypony]

A recent research done on the New Zealand wild horse population - the Kaimanawas - has shown that despite no intervention from man they showed signs of chronic laminitis and deformed feet, with flares and cracks. So much for the wild horse trim!

I went to a seminar on this study by a person involved in conducting it, so I think I may be able to explain. This seminar, by the way, was organised by the local barefoot trimming partnership (we have one of those up here), and was attended predominantly by farriers, trimmers, and vets, co-existing in apparent harmony! And the lunch was excellent...

My apologies if there are any inaccuracies in what follows: this seminar was back in May, and I'm reporting from memory here. This research is being published, so if you want to follow it up, you will be able to.

The New Zealand study was part of a larger study run out of Queensland University that compared 6 groups of feral horses in Australia and New Zealand, with respect to their environment (very different types of terrain), diet, and hoof growth. It continued over several years (I think it may still be continuing now). All six groups of horses were of genetically similar stock, being a blend of TB, Arab, and draft/native.

Broadly speaking, the findings were that the horses in the harsher areas, where they had to walk many miles for days at a time over harder surfaces (to travel between water and grazing, going as much as 5 days between drinks of water), had far better feet than those in the lush environments (such as the New Zealand group), which displayed a high incidence of laminitis etc., and very overgrown feet.

Horses in the rockiest, driest area often had the "prettiest" hooves, but while the healthiest hooves were from among this group, so were some of the most damaged, in terms of bone pathologies. This might be attributable to the extreme long distances these horses had to travel over extreme ground: higher risk of injury.

Horses in the sandier, yet dry, terrain had slightly less pretty hooves, which appeared to take on a somewhat flatter shape. These horses showed less pathologies than the other groups.

Horses in some very dry areas are exposed every 10 years (I think; something like that) to suddenly lush terrain, due to large-scale river flooding. These horses exhibited laminitic damage in their hooves, corresponding to this period of lush growth.

Finally, a horse each was taken from fairly lush and harshest arid areas, and switched. In the period of observation (4--6 months?), both horses' hooves changed their growth pattern, according to the new environment. This part of the study, intended to be carried out on a larger scale, was discontinued: the mare taken to the arid area initially joined with a group of horses there, but when they set out on their multi-day trek to their grazing, didn't follow them away from the water. As a result, she was slowly starving, and it was felt to be cruel to continue.

To me, the study demonstrates why it can be tricky to successfully manage a barefoot horse in the lusher parts of this country: the diet and terrain are really rather unsuitable for a horse, and so it takes a lot of management to make it work. It is quite possible, however, and to me, the long-term gain in terms of metabolic and foot health are worth it.

 

[thatsmygirl]

But if you sorted your mare's diet she wouldn't have brittle hooves at the front. A molassed mix plus molassed sugar beet isn't good for foot health and one of the results can be brittle hooves. She may also be getting too much grass in the summer. In very simple terms too much sugar causes the hind gut to become too acidic. Toxins are then produced which leach out through the gut lining into the blood stream. These toxins then attack the laminae and other sensitive structures in the feet causing inflammation. The laminae will stretch and die off, breaking connection with the hoof wall. It's the laminae that provide nutrients/blood supply/moisture to the hoof wall, so if those laminae die and the connection is broken the hoof wall is starved of nutrients/moisture and becomes brittle.

This is why a low sugar diet is important for ALL horses. It's just in barefoot horses you see the results of too much sugar much more clearly in terms of footiness. Shoes numb the foot by reducing circulation significantly so you
won't see the same footiness, but you will see the longer term negative effects of too much sugar, like brittle hooves.

this is laminitis that has been discribed, and yes if the laminae die and connection is broken that is where you get the pedal bone rotation. Yes diet has a lot to do with it but not always,
I feed topspec balancer to all mine depending on which one they need ( useing stud,lite and comprehensive) as well as speedi beet and topspec chops. More people need to think about their horses diet and not just price!!!! I work in a feed shop and customers aren't interested in what feeds best to feed, low sugar etc it always comes down to price which is a shame. Mollichaff extra being a big seller due to price but oh god I would never feed it.
I'm very on the fence with bare foot, iv got 2 unshod who will stay unshod and the foals as they are older and broken will hopefully not have shoes on. I have got 2 shod horses and would love to get my tb bare foot he has very good feet for a tb but take off his shoes and he can't stand on the yard and can see the pain. He's out off work now so would be a idea time to try but not sure the best way to start.Just backs first? Any advice welcome!!! Are lanes have lots off small gravel all over them. Also is there any bare foot trimmers nr honiton Devon? If I could get my lad bare foot I would be thilled

 

[soloequestrian]

Mine get grass and haylage depending on time of year. I'm hoping to move to more haylage and less grass all year but it's taking time and money to implement. They get sugarbeet and Alpha Oil as a carrier for their supplements - linseed, brewers yeast, magnesium oxide, table salt, copper and zinc. I used to be quite anti-supplement but decided to give it a go after reading Feet First, and all their hooves have improved substantially. The big skinny one gets a scoop of oats in his hard feed at the moment too.

Just to add my four-penneth to the bun fight:
There are some pretty horrendous farriers out there, all their regulation doesn't seem to change that. The barefoot trimmers are all subject to the same legislation as the rest of us - the Animal Health and Welfare Act - under which you can be prosecuted for causing suffering and also for actions which could lead to suffering. As far as I know, Strasser herself has had a lot of success in treating hopeless cases, but she didn't seem to be able to train others to do the same. As others have said, I don't understand why MRI scans would be required if a horse came sound. Interesting, yes. I had an MRI of my back before it was operated on. I researched discectomies very thoroughly (someone was going to poke about near my spinal cord after all), but I didn't come across any studies where people had the operation and were then rescanned - I was quite happy that the vast majority of people could walk again, and used that as my grounds for having the operation.

 

[AndySpooner]

I've seen that experiment, I can't remember where I read about it now for the life of me, I do recall that the horses which were moved from the lush areas couldn't cope with the distances, and the horses moved to the lush areas feet suffered.

Quite what they were hoping to demonstrate I don't know, but it certainly highlighted the effect environment has on the feet.

How this translates into keeping horses in the UK draws attention to the improved pasture most horses and ponies are expected to live on.

Interesting to note that time after time, horses travelling large distances over hard rocky terrain have the best feet. This, I feel gives little credence to the oft used argument, 'I cannot go barefoot, as my horse does too much work and his feet will wear out.'

I am now firmly of the opinion that you will wear your backside out before the horses feet.

 

[brucea]

I am now firmly of the opinion that you will wear your backside out before the horses feet.

From practical experience I can tell you - you're spot on Andy!

 

[LucyPriory]

I see a wide variety of domestic horses in a wide variety of situations.

Of the barefooters; the best ones are the hardest working and they eat mostly forage with a vit/min supplement. One of these lives out 24/7 in a fairly wet field. Great feet though.

The worst ones do very little work and get fed equine 'junk' food. These ones tend to have not so good feet, some very not so good.

(and dongles are great!)

 

[Oberon]

So many points, I'm not sure I can cover them all in the few minutes I have.

No, I have never seen a farrier hit a horse with a rasp, but then I wouldn't expect one to in my presence unless he was either very brave or stupid.
The NOS standards are currently being formulated with consultation from all relevant equine professionals, including farriers, vets and trimmers. It will be a part of farriery appreniceship training as well as a standard of practice for trimmers and other equine professionals.
It is not a legal requirement. Farriers and vets are bound by legal requirements and recognised training.
I would like to see some regulation for barefoot hoof care workers, a standardised training scheme and registration. Would you not agree that bad practice in barefoot trimming exists ?
I am not anti barefoot at all. I see it as ideal and am currently working with my farrier to sort out the feet of a 4 year old that was fully shod at 3, before it was in work. This is what really makes me angry. Slapping shoes on babies. He is on the end of the phone and comes to advise for free when ever I have a question.
Yes, I do a lot for horses for free. Two of mine were advised to be shot by experts due to severe health/ behavioural issues. They are now fit, trustworthy and able to be ridden by anyone. I have recently taken on another because its owner cannot afford to keep it and has felt overhorsed. I hope to return to her a good, safe riding horse when her finances improve. I also care for a couple of others whose owners have lost interest and had pretty much abandoned them to become overweight, neglected animals.
No, I would not pay for an MRI scan, I do not have the funds,like yourselves, my time and money is totally dedicated to the horses in my care.
No, I certainly do not trust all vets, farriers, trimmers or any other professionals unquestioningly. I rely on gut instinct, question always, but I like to have scientific proof as a starting point. As already said, currently, 2 of my horses are alive today because I ignored professional advice.
I am frustrated with bad practice and carefully choose the experts I have and work with them, not accepting of what I'm told without knowing why. there are vets and farriers I wouldn't let near mine and unfortunately, the trimmers I have encountered have left me unimpressed.
I would love to meet barefoot experts that are extensively trained and knowledgeable, I respect the work of Jaime Jackson. I would like to see te qualitity of barefoot practitioners training improved and regulated and research funded. My argument is with the cowboys who are currently answerable to no one.
I do not believe that farriers and vets have a desire to keep horses lame in order to make money. Certainly not the ones I have met, who are passionate about equine welfare -or maybe thats just because I wouldn't use anyone who wasn't. There are good and bad in every profession, but at least vets and farriers are answerable in law.
Enough of my rambling, but, I am most definitley, pro keeping horses unshod and I don't find it unreasonable to question the qualifications and lack of research data in the barefoot trimming movement.[/QUOTE.

If you've never seen a trimmer you are appy with, I can understand why you are so doubtful.

Please keep some faith as there are some really good ones out there too. I agree it is frustrating that there is such a wide gap between good and bad (bit the same with farrriers!)

I use UKNHCP trimmers and have done for the last five years. I have always been happy with their work.

On my yard they have gone from being treated with suspicion to being well respected experts on feet. They are often asked for advice from even shod liveries.

In the days of farriers, as my horses are unshod, they were always relegated to an apprentice.

The day one of the apprentices decided to start digging into my horse's soles was the day I went to a barefoot trimmer! I didn't know what was happening until I looked down and saw my horse standing in pools of blood! No explanation or apology!

I know for certain that no UKNHCP trimmer would ever do that to my horses.

Ironically my horses get a better trained professional now I use a trimmer than they ever did with the farrier's apprentices

I also share your frustration about the lack of proof surrounding barefoot rehabbing. I really don't know what the answer is other than resting the cost on the shoulders of owners who have already exhausted their bank balances on traditional treatments before taking the shoes off in desperation.

This is Schoko - he was rehabbed by my trimmers on my yard. His owners really wish they could get a repeat Xray. But they just can't afford it They are clinging on to their jobs by the skin of their teeth ATM....

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

 

[Tnavas]

I think you are right on the diet.

And being right on the diet explains the NZ research. Wild horses left in an unnatural place. Too much green stuff and not enough scrub and movement. No intervention, in the wrong place, is not "natural" it's "neglect". Those horses were not native to NZ they are descended from imports genetically designed for a much poorer environment. You'll see exactly the same thing if you look at the feet of New Forest ponies. I doubt you'd find the same thing in a Shetlands kept Shetland.

Dartmoors & Exmoors are the only true native pony in the UK - all the others have been developed over the centuries by the introduction of other breeds. The Kaimanawas run over a variety of terrain. Kaimanawa Forest Park is southeast of Lake Taupo, and extends over a number of remote mountain ranges separated by the headwater valleys of several major North Island rivers. The southern sectors are steep alpine uplands with high peaks and wide tussock areas, and the north is entirely forest clad.

 

[snoopie]

hi all have a look on you tube, the happy hoof Chanel , and the swedish hoof school very interesting stuff, and hoof tech and barefoot for soundness site