what are the banned substances?

only_me

only_me

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 June 2007
Messages
14,056
Location
Ireland
Visit site
was having a read through the banned substances on the fei site, and saw "magnesium sulphate" (was the only one i recognised
tongue.gif
) which i believe is a common ingredient in calmers?

but i did not really understand the rest of them, and there was only 6 pages of banned stuff, and was wondering if you lot knew what ARE the banned substances?

im getting in a panic because i dont want to be unaware of anything and end up next year at a CCI or CIC and be banned!!
frown.gif


could anyone help please? and just how common are postive tests?
 
Medicine-wise anything that might improve the well-being of the horse (and so improve its performance) - the common ones are anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs like bute, flunixin, metacam etc.), pain-killers, steroids (including in minute amounts in skin creams), respiratory drugs (eg. ventipulmin or most things that are given by inhaler), sedatives etc.

Anti-biotics and anti-fungal drugs are generally fine with the exception of penicillin which often has a local anaesthetic added which is banned.

Check any medications with your vet, check your feeds are approved and guaranteed OK (most major brands are fine) and check with the manufacturers of all supplements you use. Also check any lotions or potions you use on wounds/legs etc. If you do this and religiously stick to separate feeding equipment for each horse (buckets, mixing spoons etc.) you should steer clear of too much trouble.
 
Certain other things are also fine - gastrogard being a notable one - and anything which could be used in a detrimental way to a horse's welfare is banned (so sensitising agents for example).

They don't give a definitive list because it encourages people to look for loopholes - instead they give descriptions and examples, and allow you to apply for an exemption should the horse need something on welfare grounds but that is not being used in a performance enhancing way. For example if something need to be used but might not have cleared from the system in time.
 
and tto be honest if a horse needs a 'calmer' to do a good test, how is that not improving performance with a drug? the are also certain 'treatments' on the banned list like pre oygenating the blood, which is why there are one or two products much vaunted on this forum that are also technically breaking the rules if they actually did what they say on the tin.
personally i think the banned list is getting to be ridiculous, there have been many debates on the subject on here and i have just ritten a major piece about the subject but as as far as you are concerned you are pretty safe with savlon and salt water and that is about it!! anything that you put in their mouths especially even 'calmers' are skating on very thin ice these days. and dont think because it is homeopathic you are safe. I can think of one well known eventer on the britsh team at the time who thought that and was done for using valerian. been banned for ages actually but this was in an 'alternative' remedy so they thought it was ok.
 
thanks you lot
laugh.gif


i may have to check up on herbal supplements - at the moment i am feeding Immu-plus
tongue.gif


thats an interesting point Lucretia - never thought of calmers that way
laugh.gif


that makes sense about not being specific
tongue.gif


thanks
laugh.gif


claireL i looked at last years comp and they had CCI**, CIC**, CCI* and a CIC*, and im sure that they will have to replace ballygraffen somewhere, hopefully tyrella will hold a CIC* instead
tongue.gif
 
I guess for me the calmers which use magnesium are fine because from what I can tell from talking to people/using them, they actually only work on horses which have a deficiency anyway - so to my mind that's just appropriate nutrition rather than anything else - I'd feed powdered magnesium if the horse'd eat it as it is much cheaper! As I don't have to use a calmer it's beside the point from a personal point of view, but my feeling is that the magnesium ones don't really have an effect unless you have a horse which is already deficient in some way for some reason. Of course I have no cast iron proof of this, I'd love to design an experiment but there are simply too many variables!
 
the point being SC that if you are using one, it is too improve performance. personally my experience tells me that 'magnesium deficiency' is one of those urban legends created by a marketing company to sell calmers. particularly if you are feeding compound feeds. in all the hundreds and hundreds of horses i have looked after, i can only think of a couple with a severe enough mineral deficiency OF ANY SORT that was bad enough to affect the job they were asked to do.
however i am waitng for someone to explain to me how using a calmer is more justified than using acp to achieve the same effect? unless of course the horse concerned was to be tested for magnesium deficiency on the day of the contest to 'prove' its use was justified.
 
I don't like to argue, but I don't think I've commonly heard of competition horses with a magnesium deficiency. Cows, sheep etc. with magnesium deficiencies display very severe signs eg. sudden death or are laid out on their sides with severe muscle tremors as magnesium is involved in the transmission of nerve impulses. I would be very surprised if a horse on a normal diet (ie. grass, hay/haylage, cereals) was magnesium deficient in any way.

I suspect 'magnesium deficiency' is a bit of a convenient terminology to use for sharp/spooky horses and that if you blood tested them you would find that their blood magnesium was mostly in the normal range.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, just that it's probably not a common problem.
 
Entirely possible you are both right - in which case this is a pointless discussion because the calmers would therefore do nothing and the horse would excrete the excess magnesium. So perhaps it is all in the riders heads - in which case I have no issue at all with it since we allow riders to also wear lucky socks etc
wink.gif


Gamebird - don't disagree that pronounced magnesium deficiency would probably present as similar to staggers in cows and sheep, but as stress is known to increase the physiological use of magnesium, I think by supplementing it before a stressful event, such as traveling or competition you are simply ensuring the horse has the required minerals for uptake - in much the same way that electrolytes are used. I wasn't suggesting that these horses have a prolonged deficiency really, just that horses more prone to stress use more magnesium, hence need more magnesium in a bioavailable form. To my mind that's good management rather than using a known sedative such as acp - after all, you wouldn't think twice about using more electrolytes for a horse in a hotter environment. Maybe that's just me though.

Re the OP and mag sulphate - mag sulphate is used as a laxative I believe, hence it is banned, I don't think (though may be wrong) that the magnesium in calmers is a sulphate of magnesium because if it were, you'd find your horse was more likely to have loose droppings on it.
 
[ QUOTE ]

however i am waitng for someone to explain to me how using a calmer is more justified than using acp to achieve the same effect?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, to answer this, for me the difference is that ACP is a chemical sedative not required for normal function of the horse which has been clinically tested and proven to have a sedating effect on a horse. Magnesium is an essential mineral which is used by the body for a wide range of functions and which may be used more rapidly by the body at certain times, for example times of stress, therefore by using it you are simply providing a mineral required for normal function of the horse, in much the same way as water is required, and for similar reason as electrolytes are provided and used. You would not hesitate to give a horse electrolytes if you felt it had sweated more than normal, or a drink between phases because these help the body to function both normally and optimally and prevent the animal being unduly physiologically stressed. ACP on the other hand suppresses normal responses and sedates the horse, which magnesium does not do.
 
googled magensium sulphate - and got this

"Magnesium sulfate is a chemical compound containing magnesium and sulfate, with the formula MgSO4. In its hydrated form the pH is 6.0 (5.5 to 7.0). It is often encountered as the heptahydrate, MgSO4·7H2O, commonly called Epsom salts"

so you arnt even safe with espom salts!
 
[ QUOTE ]
googled magensium sulphate - and got this

"Magnesium sulfate is a chemical compound containing magnesium and sulfate, with the formula MgSO4. In its hydrated form the pH is 6.0 (5.5 to 7.0). It is often encountered as the heptahydrate, MgSO4·7H2O, commonly called Epsom salts"

so you arnt even safe with espom salts!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because epsom salts are a laxative! The most common way people use them with horses is when tubbing a foot, and I think you're still safe to do that
wink.gif
 
Ha SC, just to throw a spanner in the works what about steroids or sex hormones eg. testosterone? They are both naturally found in the body and required for normal physiological function. They are both also firmly banned if administrated.

Until the tests for endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone were refined there was many a sprinter and cyclist who explained their extremely (suspiciously) high testosterone blood tests by saying that they were just a lot more manly than the rest of the competitors!
wink.gif
 
Duh. we are discussing giving calmers or whatever BEFORE the contest (stress) not after to affect the subsequent performance. whether they are 'chemical' or 'natural' is rather beside the point isnt it? capaiscin is a 'natural' substance by the way, with many proven theraputic uses.
salt and water deficiency in horses or humans is entirely documented and proven. the legendary detrimental magnesium deficiency in horses is not (or if anyone knows different please let me know the refernce for the paper/jouurnal too it). most horses getting normal compound feed nd hay are getting more than sufficient.
so once again i ask what is the difference between a chemical and a 'natural' substance if the end result is performance enhancing. in people it doesnt matter if you use acid or weed it is still dope.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ha SC, just to throw a spanner in the works what about steroids or sex hormones eg. testosterone? They are both naturally found in the body and required for normal physiological function. They are both also firmly banned if administrated.

Until the tests for endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone were refined there was many a sprinter and cyclist who explained their extremely (suspiciously) high testosterone blood tests by saying that they were just a lot more manly than the rest of the competitors!
wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but they are hormones which are not excreted if given in excess, unlike magnesium which is excreted if given in excess.....

ETA (because I thought I'd written it but the computer deleted it!): and because those are both steroid hormones which do enhance performance when given in excess, whereas magnesium is a mineral which is used in various functions rather than influences various functions. It's the difference between a light bulb and a light switch I suppose - the bulb is used to produce light but the switch influences when you get light - you can't get light without the bulb, but it does sweet FA if you don't have the switch!
 
so if you enject your horse with more tetostrone to give it more "presence" in dressage (:p) you could just say hes not a nampy pampy gelding - hes a real man?
tongue.gif
 
a horse was disqualified from the oaks(it won) and its very rich owner proven with out doubt that mares can secrete excessive testoterone which has since been well documented. hence why there are still threshold levels when testing for hormones. the oaks winner was not reinstated despite this evidence.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Duh. we are discussing giving calmers or whatever BEFORE the contest (stress) not after to affect the subsequent performance. whether they are 'chemical' or 'natural' is rather beside the point isnt it? capaiscin is a 'natural' substance by the way, with many proven theraputic uses.
salt and water deficiency in horses or humans is entirely documented and proven. the legendary detrimental magnesium deficiency in horses is not (or if anyone knows different please let me know the refernce for the paper/jouurnal too it). most horses getting normal compound feed nd hay are getting more than sufficient.
so once again i ask what is the difference between a chemical and a 'natural' substance if the end result is performance enhancing. in people it doesnt matter if you use acid or weed it is still dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you have never given a horse electrolytes to help with recovery from a flight prior to a competition, or in hot weather prior to a competition? You have only ever fed them after performance? Magnesium is used more rapidly when the horse is stressed, the first clinical sign of this is an 'over-reaction' to external stimuli which can appear as tenseness or spooking. By giving magnesium on a day the horse will suffer a greater level of stress - and this includes travel since travel places more stress on the nervous system than standing in a field does, therefore more magnesium will be used - you are simply making sure the horse has enough magnesium available to it to allow it to perform without showing those signs. If the horse is a complete loon then clearly this won't work, whereas dosing it up on acp will have an effect.

So the analogy is: you give a horse electrolytes to prepare it for/help it recover from loss of electrolytes due to a long journey - this is acceptable and helps is perform optimally. You give a horse magnesium because it will use more magnesium traveling to an event and this also helps it perform optimally because it constantly has enough magnesium - this is not acceptable why? Just because electrolyte loss manifests as fatigue etc and magnesium loss manifests as spookiness/lack of concentration does not seem to me to be a good reason for comparing magnesium use to acp use rather than to electrolyte use, but that's just my opinion.
 
please feel free to quote me the scientific journal/paper regarding magnesium deficiency causing spookkines in horses and i will take it all back.
until you can do so, if it does have the effect claimed by the manufacturers then adminstering it makes you no better than someone using acp, which is clearly why certain ingredients in them are banned.
the effects of travel and stress on electrolyte levels and the subsequent loss of performance is well documented so dont bother using those as an example.
oh and for the record when you have looked after as many top class competition horses as i have, not only eventers, but showjumpers dressage horses and race horses in some very extreme envoiromets dont impley that i dont know or understand the use of electrolytes. as i keep saying it is hardly the same difference and not what we were originally discussing which was IS IT ANY MORE RIGHT TO ADMINISTER A 'NATURAL' CALMER THAN A CHEMICAL ONE TO IMPROVE PERFORMANCE. if a horse was proven to be magnesium defficient that is another matter entirely but i havent met one yet.
 
For starters try here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vpuTp...ct=result#PPA38,M1

Key quotes from that (bold is my addition): 'Hypomagnesemia, although uncommon in horses, is most often associated with transit, and as a result both stress and an absence of, or decrease in, feed and, therefore, magnesium intake.'

'Hypomagnesemia decreases the activity of the magnesium-dependent enzyme acetylecholine esterase. As a result, the breakdown of acetylecholine decreases. Its resulting accumulation at the motor end plates causes neuromuscular excitibility. Clinically, this is manifested by nervousness, muscle tremors and ataxia, followed by collapse, increased respiratory rate, sweating, convulsions and paddling.'

This is just one of the more easily accessible reference source on the subject to link to on the web, there are other papers and text books out there which document this too.

You don't need to shout, I am comfortable with people having a different opinion to me on this, I can see why you feel that way, but I happen to disagree.
smile.gif


I like to research products and the reasons behind the manufacturers claims before I use them, and this evidence (and similar I have read) is why I am entirely comfortable with using magnesium on a horse which is going to be stressed by travel, competing etc without feeling like I am 'doping' or sedating it or in some other way infringing the rules either in letter or spirit.
 
Try "Hypomagnesemia in hospitalized horses" main author Johansson. Clearly demonstrates stressed (injured horses) are often magnesium deficient (48.7% in the study)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Re the OP and mag sulphate - mag sulphate is used as a laxative I believe, hence it is banned, I don't think (though may be wrong) that the magnesium in calmers is a sulphate of magnesium because if it were, you'd find your horse was more likely to have loose droppings on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funnily enough, was chatting to someone on our yard this evening about NAF Magic. She looked on the tub to see what sort of Mg it was and it is calcified/calcined (is the latter even something that exists?? I may have dreamt that word) Mg.
 
The other bit of that link which I thought was interesting was that it said phosphorus decreases absorption of magnesium. Now historically we didn't fertilise fields with phosphates and horses were found on very rough grassland of the type associated with low nutrient levels. Nowadays, we tend to have them on very heavily fertilised soils and often an NPK fertiliser is used. I have no idea if there is a link, but it's interesting to think that P levels could be much higher in grasses/hays horses eat now compared to those they would have had in yesteryear, which may consequently affect their ability to absorb magnesium, possibly leading to lower levels than would have been found historically?
 
[ QUOTE ]
NAF Magic tub says "Calcined magnesite"
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Nice to know I'm not quite at the stage where I'm imagining things D!
smile.gif


To give you something else to think about....when my gelding was v spooky I spoke to NAF and I spoke to Topspec. NAF told me to use a Mg calmer because he probably had a Mg deficiency. Topspec (who I believe, correct me if wrong, don't use Mg in their calmer) told me, and I quote, "the studies on Mg deficiency that are always quoted in grazing were carried out in Australia. We don't have Mg deficient pasture in the UK therefore your horse cannot possibly be deficient in Mg".... Interestingly, the only calmer I tried that worked was Topspec.
 
"Calcined magnesite" is magnesium oxide - "Magnesium deficiency can show up as footiness on hard or rough ground, and many diets (equine and human!) are deficient. You can safely add magnesium in various forms. The most bioavailable is plant-derived magnesium. You can also use magnesium oxide - this is expensive in a pure pharmaceutical form but agricultural calcined magnesite (CalMag) is fairly cheap and readily available. Your trimmer should advise you about dosage and availability, and the best form to feed."

now i didnt know that a magnesium deficency could cause footiness!
 
I think calmers are very individual to the horse. TB is on NAF Magic, there is a marked difference in his "twitchiness" and over reaction when on it and when off it. I think the paper above was carried out in the USA so while previous research may only have been done in Oz it certainly isn't now.

I'd refute that the UK is not at all Mg deficent in pasture - certainly if that was the case we would never see staggers in our cattle...but we do, relatively commonly
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top