druid
Well-Known Member
Very interesting theory!
what are the banned substances?
- Thread starter only_me
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lucretia
Well-Known Member
as i keep repeating there is no scientific eveidence to support magnesium defficency causes 'spookyness'. and as far as research goes nearly all the articles i can find are funded by feed merchants or pharmaceutical companies which casts some doubt on their validity because they havent published papers on their findings.
the only one i can find is by a team of vets in the usa who studied magnesium uptake in horses but their findings were not conclusive.
so still waiting to hear why, assuming people are using it as a calmer (and horses require a very small amount of Mg for normal function, another finding of the virginia study) why this is any different from using a chemical calmer or a natural one like valerian. perhaps it would be better just to try and find a horse mor tempernmentally suited to dressage tests?
the maktoums also financed some research into magnesium deficiency in endurance horse but i cant find the paer but essentially i believe it found that there was little ifference to having a deficiency in anytoher minerl (i.e. it impaired various bodily functions).
and the study mentioned by Druid was found that injured horsed were often lacking but did not demonstated if the deficiency was the cause or the result of the injury as far as i can see.
there is also a study that suggest overfeed an mg supplement can lead to renal failure. but i couldnt find the whole refernce for it.
the only one i can find is by a team of vets in the usa who studied magnesium uptake in horses but their findings were not conclusive.
so still waiting to hear why, assuming people are using it as a calmer (and horses require a very small amount of Mg for normal function, another finding of the virginia study) why this is any different from using a chemical calmer or a natural one like valerian. perhaps it would be better just to try and find a horse mor tempernmentally suited to dressage tests?
the maktoums also financed some research into magnesium deficiency in endurance horse but i cant find the paer but essentially i believe it found that there was little ifference to having a deficiency in anytoher minerl (i.e. it impaired various bodily functions).
and the study mentioned by Druid was found that injured horsed were often lacking but did not demonstated if the deficiency was the cause or the result of the injury as far as i can see.
there is also a study that suggest overfeed an mg supplement can lead to renal failure. but i couldnt find the whole refernce for it.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
forgot to say that sc refence is a book (their fore someones opinion) unless properly cited and referenced and i cant find those bit. there should be a list atthe back and thats what i mean by scientific studies.
druid
Well-Known Member
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the legendary detrimental magnesium deficiency in horses is not (or if anyone knows different please let me know the refernce for the paper/jouurnal too it). most horses getting normal compound feed nd hay are getting more than sufficient.
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You words, I was just responding to your request
the legendary detrimental magnesium deficiency in horses is not (or if anyone knows different please let me know the refernce for the paper/jouurnal too it). most horses getting normal compound feed nd hay are getting more than sufficient.
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You words, I was just responding to your request
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
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I think calmers are very individual to the horse. TB is on NAF Magic, there is a marked difference in his "twitchiness" and over reaction when on it and when off it. I think the paper above was carried out in the USA so while previous research may only have been done in Oz it certainly isn't now.
I'd refute that the UK is not at all Mg deficent in pasture - certainly if that was the case we would never see staggers in our cattle...but we do, relatively commonly
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I just found it odd that Topspec could make such a sweeping statement. I agree with you D, it's definitely down to the individual. In the same way that some of the moody mare supplements work on some girls, and other don't. There are so many other variables that can affect it too.
I think calmers are very individual to the horse. TB is on NAF Magic, there is a marked difference in his "twitchiness" and over reaction when on it and when off it. I think the paper above was carried out in the USA so while previous research may only have been done in Oz it certainly isn't now.
I'd refute that the UK is not at all Mg deficent in pasture - certainly if that was the case we would never see staggers in our cattle...but we do, relatively commonly
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I just found it odd that Topspec could make such a sweeping statement. I agree with you D, it's definitely down to the individual. In the same way that some of the moody mare supplements work on some girls, and other don't. There are so many other variables that can affect it too.
lucretia
Well-Known Member
and as i said above that study did not conlude whether the mafgnesium deficienciy was the cause or the effect of the HOSPITALISATION which is what they were looking at. the quote that Sc use above seems to come from another study (go to Google scholar and search Mg deficiency) which goes on to say that "such hypomagnesmia in horses is extremely rare".
and no one has still answered why calming your horse by this means to improve its performance is different from using others . personally i dont think there is a difference, if these calmers actually work because i do know one or two peeps who give one to their horses before xc but not most people and if Mg deficiency was such an issue they might just do that.
anyway i am leaving this discussion now as i have an interview to finish and though i love a good debate they lose their attraction if people start trying to be smug without either reading or ansering the points raised.
and no one has still answered why calming your horse by this means to improve its performance is different from using others . personally i dont think there is a difference, if these calmers actually work because i do know one or two peeps who give one to their horses before xc but not most people and if Mg deficiency was such an issue they might just do that.
anyway i am leaving this discussion now as i have an interview to finish and though i love a good debate they lose their attraction if people start trying to be smug without either reading or ansering the points raised.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
My link clearly states that the first clinical symptom of magnesium deficiency is nervousness. The text book is not funded by a feed company.
The difference between using magnesium and Valerian is that with the former you are correcting a reaction caused by a nutritional deficiency (whether that is bought about by transit as also stated in my link above or pasture deficiency or some other reason such as excess phosphorus etc), with the latter you are harnessing an unknown chemical constituent which has been shown in clinical studies to promote drowsiness/produce a mild sedative effect. They have not yet isolated whatever it is which causes valerian to be effective as a sedative.
I think is a difference between a horse having a deficiency which causes a compound to accumulate at the motor end plates of the nerves and cause a reaction of the nervous system, and using a compound (valerian) which is believed to act on the GABA transmitters (which respond to the major inhibitory neurotransmitter). The former is correcting a lack of something the horse needs for its nervous system to work correctly, the latter is introducing a compound which is believed to (or in the case of ACP does) act on the nervous system to produce a specific effect - notably sedation.
The book is a text book - if you have it in front of you then there are references at the end of each chapter. As it is, that is an extract available on google books and the end of that particular chapter is not available to view. That does not mean it is not referenced. The author is a vet and has a PhD, so I think it is scientifically sound for the time of publication.
The difference between using magnesium and Valerian is that with the former you are correcting a reaction caused by a nutritional deficiency (whether that is bought about by transit as also stated in my link above or pasture deficiency or some other reason such as excess phosphorus etc), with the latter you are harnessing an unknown chemical constituent which has been shown in clinical studies to promote drowsiness/produce a mild sedative effect. They have not yet isolated whatever it is which causes valerian to be effective as a sedative.
I think is a difference between a horse having a deficiency which causes a compound to accumulate at the motor end plates of the nerves and cause a reaction of the nervous system, and using a compound (valerian) which is believed to act on the GABA transmitters (which respond to the major inhibitory neurotransmitter). The former is correcting a lack of something the horse needs for its nervous system to work correctly, the latter is introducing a compound which is believed to (or in the case of ACP does) act on the nervous system to produce a specific effect - notably sedation.
The book is a text book - if you have it in front of you then there are references at the end of each chapter. As it is, that is an extract available on google books and the end of that particular chapter is not available to view. That does not mean it is not referenced. The author is a vet and has a PhD, so I think it is scientifically sound for the time of publication.
druid
Well-Known Member
No, Lucretia - perhaps you should read your own post. You specifically stated that Mg deficency in horses did not occur. The paper I quoted showed that was not true.
I made no reply to you either supporting or defending mag deficency causing spookiness.
I made no reply to you either supporting or defending mag deficency causing spookiness.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
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as i keep repeating there is no scientific eveidence to support magnesium defficency causes 'spookyness'. and as far as research goes nearly all the articles i can find are funded by feed merchants or pharmaceutical companies which casts some doubt on their validity because they havent published papers on their findings.
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No, in fact what you said was that "in your experience" there was no such thing, and that "you haven't met a horse with Mg deficiency yet" (paraphrased but you get my drift). "In my experience" is not a scientific test so I don't understand how you can dismiss what SC is saying when you're being given actual evidence?
I would also be very interested to read the studies you say are funded by pharma companies and feed merchants - I've yet to see anything that says it was funded by NAF, or by Intervet. As you are so quick to tell everyone else to find you evidence, how about you find me the evidence of these apparent studies funded by pharma?
as i keep repeating there is no scientific eveidence to support magnesium defficency causes 'spookyness'. and as far as research goes nearly all the articles i can find are funded by feed merchants or pharmaceutical companies which casts some doubt on their validity because they havent published papers on their findings.
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No, in fact what you said was that "in your experience" there was no such thing, and that "you haven't met a horse with Mg deficiency yet" (paraphrased but you get my drift). "In my experience" is not a scientific test so I don't understand how you can dismiss what SC is saying when you're being given actual evidence?
I would also be very interested to read the studies you say are funded by pharma companies and feed merchants - I've yet to see anything that says it was funded by NAF, or by Intervet. As you are so quick to tell everyone else to find you evidence, how about you find me the evidence of these apparent studies funded by pharma?
sunflower
Well-Known Member
QR - I think the magnesium deficiency theory is a very interesting one. Just to use a non-horse example should we therefore ban tennis players from eating bananas during a match to help prevent cramp by raising their potassium levels? Or prevent marathon runners from taking on fluids etc during a race? To my mind this is no different - you are correcting a temporary deficiency during the competitve period to bring whatever the substance is up to the 'normal' level. You're not giving the horse an unfair performance advantage - you're correcting a disadvantage by bringing that horse up to the level of those that don't have this deficiency.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
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QR - I think the magnesium deficiency theory is a very interesting one. Just to use a non-horse example should we therefore ban tennis players from eating bananas during a match to help prevent cramp by raising their potassium levels? Or prevent marathon runners from taking on fluids etc during a race? To my mind this is no different - you are correcting a temporary deficiency during the competitve period to bring whatever the substance is up to the 'normal' level. You're not giving the horse an unfair performance advantage - you're correcting a disadvantage by bringing that horse up to the level of those that don't have this deficiency.
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That was what I meant but you wrote it better than me!
QR - I think the magnesium deficiency theory is a very interesting one. Just to use a non-horse example should we therefore ban tennis players from eating bananas during a match to help prevent cramp by raising their potassium levels? Or prevent marathon runners from taking on fluids etc during a race? To my mind this is no different - you are correcting a temporary deficiency during the competitve period to bring whatever the substance is up to the 'normal' level. You're not giving the horse an unfair performance advantage - you're correcting a disadvantage by bringing that horse up to the level of those that don't have this deficiency.
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That was what I meant but you wrote it better than me!
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
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The other bit of that link which I thought was interesting was that it said phosphorus decreases absorption of magnesium.
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How interesting. As I understand it, oats are quite high in phosphorus, so if it decreases the absorption of magnesium, do you think this is why some horses get a bit hyper on oats, rather than the oats themselves?
The other bit of that link which I thought was interesting was that it said phosphorus decreases absorption of magnesium.
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How interesting. As I understand it, oats are quite high in phosphorus, so if it decreases the absorption of magnesium, do you think this is why some horses get a bit hyper on oats, rather than the oats themselves?