What are your attitudes and opinions ?

[Oberon]

Ardennes (for those who may not know) are the Arabs of the draft world.
They resemble giant Exmoor ponies and are intelligent, generous, agile and possess great stamina but they will defend themselves if they feel they are being bullied.
http://www.thejoyofhorses.com/oct98/ardenneshistory.htm

Speaking as an owner of an Ardennes X, I think you should try the MH with Fany.

She'll really enjoy the challenge

Just make sure you put the resulting battle of wills on YouTube

I'll put a tenner on her

In all seriousness it sounds like she is lacking in confidence whilst on a hack. I had the same issue with The Tank after he'd had some time off work. If I tried to hack alone - or went with a horse who wouldn't lead, he would simply turn around to go home.

He's done endurance and always gives 100% - so it wasn't laziness. He just lacked confidence. I suspect if I used gadgets on him, he'd simply lay down

 

[Goldenstar]

many years ago in olden times I taught in a riding school who used them on the school horses the thought being it made their lives a little easier when riders where coming off the lunge I have not seen one for years.
If I felt the need to use something with that action now I would rather ( hushes voice) use a draw rien as a least you can lengthen them while moving so they are out of action but as with all of these things they are never a magic bullet and can't take the place of time and patience

 

[*hic*]

I use a Market Harborough when needed. I used one on a Welsh who had developed a flip top head when excited and had managed put my daughter's teeth through her top and bottom lips. He couldn't tolerate the action of a running martingale on the reins (I'd spent years getting him to cope with any contact at all!) and the MH came into play only when he had flung his head right up, but is not as restraining as a standing martingale. It took a very short while for him to remember his manners and it was then removed, point made, job done, happy partnership between pony and daughter.


Wagtail if you've used a Market Harborough which has been fitted to come into play like drawreins do and made your horse hardmouthed then you should have taken advice on how to fit it correctly.

 

[*hic*]

And as for my opinion on whether it would benefit Fany, that would depend on what she's doing with her head. If she's stretching right out, blocking you and just turning then it might help you to keep her head more on the vertical and have a chance of turning her. If she's just setting her neck where she always carries her head and turning then I wouldn't have thought it would help and you are back to a combination of anticipation, confidence giving and firmness.

 

[FanyDuChamp]

Ardennes (for those who may not know) are the Arabs of the draft world.
They resemble giant Exmoor ponies and are intelligent, generous, agile and possess great stamina but they will defend themselves if they feel they are being bullied.
http://www.thejoyofhorses.com/oct98/ardenneshistory.htm

Speaking as an owner of an Ardennes X, I think you should try the MH with Fany.

She'll really enjoy the challenge

Just make sure you put the resulting battle of wills on YouTube

I'll put a tenner on her

In all seriousness it sounds like she is lacking in confidence whilst on a hack. I had the same issue with The Tank after he'd had some time off work. If I tried to hack alone - or went with a horse who wouldn't lead, he would simply turn around to go home.

He's done endurance and always gives 100% - so it wasn't laziness. He just lacked confidence. I suspect if I used gadgets on him, he'd simply lay down

Fany is the gentlest, sweetest , kindest mare anyone would ever wish to meet but she is STUBBORN! She actually doesn't lack confidence at all, she is a very confident, self assured horse, she never shies or spooks and is generally very good, except she has opinions, and her opinion is is that she is a show horse and a broodmare and she does not like work. Fany will happily hack out for miles, her problem is not napping off the yard but deciding that she has done enough work for the day. She suddenly decides and that is when she tries to turn.

Any pictures of you Ardennes x? What is he crossed with?


ETA for everyone who has been kind enough to comment she is not in anyway lacking confidence, she is very confident just extremely lazy. And I am not going to use a MH it is just that I was curious that an expert felt it would be appropriate.

FDC

 

[*hic*]

Fany is the gentlest, sweetest , kindest mare anyone would ever wish to meet but she is STUBBORN! She actually doesn't lack confidence at all, she is a very confident, self assured horse, she never shies or spooks and is generally very good, except she has opinions, and her opinion is is that she is a show horse and a broodmare and she does not like work. Fany will happily hack out for miles, her problem is not napping off the yard but deciding that she has done enough work for the day. She suddenly decides and that is when she tries to turn.

Any pictures of you Ardennes x? What is he crossed with?

FDC

In that case, in my previous post where I said "combination of anticipation, confidence giving and firmness" can you substitute "firmness and Mr Stick" for "confidence giving and firmness please"..

Our big mare is, for the first time in her life, top of the pack and she has become very very bossy with it. It does make me laugh as she is normally so very gentle and keen to please. This new "No, I've decided I've warmed up enough and we're going to the dressage arena NOW" attitude is totally out of character for her and makes me laugh so much that i nearly fall off but I am now having to remind her that she may have a big new gelding she can boss about but actually, when it comes to herd leader there is NO contest.

Sounds like you may have to reestablish that with Fany. Best of British

 

[babymare]

as with any artifiacal ( and thats the key word here) aid its ok when used with someone who is knowledgeable with good hands balance etc but sadly seen as quick fix by to many lesser experienced riders - personally good old fashioned schooling, setting goals and slowly working to them under good instruction- so much in life in general we want a quick fix and in equine world thats to detriment to the horse in later life no muscle to support whats being asked not fit to take whats beng asked worked in a incorrect outline (looks good at head but the neck and body eeeek)- good old fashioned schooling cant beat it yes it takes time but end result is relaxed and the horse goes on longer mmmmm but my personal opioion only x

 

[Holly Hocks]

At the CRC conference in 2006, Paul Belton of Albion saddlemakers was asked "When does a piece of tack become a gadget?" His reply was: "When you seek a piece of equipment to solve a problem that you created in the first place, the that equipment becomes a gadget."

I tend to agree and don't like any gadgets - tried a harbridge a couple of times, but didn't like it, and have used side reins - but only on the loosest fitting to get the horse to understand having a light contact.

HOWEVER - a lot of problems happen with horses due to people who have had them before us - we are often having to rectify other people's bad management, riding and handling, and when it becomes an issue of danger or life/death situation, then gadgets - whichever one we choose to use have their place.

Sounds like Fany is a great character to me!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Using a MH is effectively changing the action of the bit by exerting more pressure on it.

Sorry, I disagree - a properly fitted MH will not do this any more than a pair of hands will do.

This.

I have used and will continue to use them should the need arise, fitted correctly they only come into action as and when needed - if used properly. Nothing wrong with them at all. They are also known as German Martingales in North America and are widely used for western training.

Agreed



RedNosedFany, however if Fany were mine, I would not be thinking of using a MH on her (from the way you describe)

I'd go the other way....

I'd check out what bit she has, then introduce a curbed bit with the same mouthpiece that she is used to wearing. (jointed, mullen mouth etc)
Then I'd ride out with 2 reins correctly fitted (inc lipstrap & curb chain ) and 'if' I experienced a mobile tanker coming into effect then I would employ my seat, legs - and also the curb. The curb would need to be gently applied.

Having had a number of heavy natives (tho never a Fany bless ) I have found they respect a curbed bit more than other gadgets - particularly Exmoors & Fells. More so the Exmoors as they are a mini-workhorse with low set thick necks.

I'd keep the MH for a forwards going tanker never a plodding tanker

If you are a novice with a curb, (apologies if not! ) then I would expect my instructor or a trusted friend who does have experience to guide you.

Good luck in getting some handbrakes sorted

 

[*hic*]

as with any artifiacal ( and thats the key word here) aid its ok when used with someone who is knowledgeable with good hands balance etc but sadly seen as quick fix by to many lesser experienced riders - personally good old fashioned schooling, setting goals and slowly working to them under good instruction- so much in life in general we want a quick fix and in equine world thats to detriment to the horse in later life no muscle to support whats being asked not fit to take whats beng asked worked in a incorrect outline (looks good at head but the neck and body eeeek)- good old fashioned schooling cant beat it yes it takes time but end result is relaxed and the horse goes on longer mmmmm but my personal opioion only x

Ah, you haven't met a correctly fitted Market Harborough nor understood it's use then

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Ah, you haven't met a correctly fitted Market Harborough nor understood it's use then

Exactly.

I use one (MH) on Big Fuzzy on rare occasions, purely out hacking when battleship/supertank/head-up mode/ steamtrain horse comes in, it can come into play - despite being the sweetest ride to school & lateral work is lovely - all light to the hands in a simple snaffle with cavesson noseband.

 

[littlescallywag]

My boys a normandy cob, sweetest,easy going,very clever,very strong and not a plod, but in the past when he has decided he has put in enough work for the day, he just sets his neck and sods off with me in walk
I did a whole field in small circles once, I was determined to win so was he.... He won
Been advised and tried various different gadgets, he just fought them. Now I don't use any thing and he is happy and does what I ask 95 percent of the time.
Only thing that works when he does decide enough is enough is brute strength in my legs and determination lol

 

[FanyDuChamp]

Sorry, I disagree - a properly fitted MH will not do this any more than a pair of hands will do.



Agreed



RedNosedFany, however if Fany were mine, I would not be thinking of using a MH on her (from the way you describe)

I'd go the other way....

I'd check out what bit she has, then introduce a curbed bit with the same mouthpiece that she is used to wearing. (jointed, mullen mouth etc)
Then I'd ride out with 2 reins correctly fitted (inc lipstrap & curb chain ) and 'if' I experienced a mobile tanker coming into effect then I would employ my seat, legs - and also the curb. The curb would need to be gently applied.

Having had a number of heavy natives (tho never a Fany bless ) I have found they respect a curbed bit more than other gadgets - particularly Exmoors & Fells. More so the Exmoors as they are a mini-workhorse with low set thick necks.

I'd keep the MH for a forwards going tanker never a plodding tanker

If you are a novice with a curb, (apologies if not! ) then I would expect my instructor or a trusted friend who does have experience to guide you.

Good luck in getting some handbrakes sorted

Fany is in a mullen mouth pelham. We are getting there, slowly! I am using roundings at present, may move up to double reins.

I think I have not expressed the point of my thread clearly. I was extremely shocked that someone who is considered an expert in the field should recommend a MH for Fany. It seemed very strange to me and so that is why I started the thread, I have not, nor ever would, consider using a MH on Fany, she is just not the right horse for it. I wanted to hear people's opinions without prejudicing them with my thoughts.

Thanks to everyone who has replied, it is always interesting to see the variety of opinions.
FDC

 

[YasandCrystal]

But would you use one in Fany's case? Have a look at my post at bottom of page 1.
FDC

No I certainly wouldn't. imo for what it's worth MHs are a very useful piece of kit for ex racers, but no substitute for patient re schooling. We used one on my daughter's first horse an ex flat racer and it was perfect, it stopped the nose poking in a gentle way (I am not against draw reins used properly). Not everyone wants to spend hours schooling a horse, but want to ride safely and effectively and I believe an MH helps with this.


And I agree it a completely inappropriate suggestion for Fany. I would have thought 'spurs' may be a more sensible one! (sorry Fany only joking!!) I agree a bit change may help - a fulmer cheeked bit to help with steering maybe? I think to be honest you may improve her to a point, but I suspect the stubborn streak is probably imprinted through her very makeup, so distraction tactics will need to be innovative to work time and time over.

This may seem a stupid suggestion, but have you ever tried her in a hackamore or a cross over bitless bridle? I ask as my daughters very forward going mare really really respects an english hackamore much more so than a bit! You could try a kineton noseband (that would offer both bit and hackamore nose pressure at once), they work for some and only come into play at times of extreme 'taking hold'.

 

[FanyDuChamp]

Hi Yasmin,
She is in a mullen mouth Pelham and we are happy with that at present, tried a Fulmer on her and it did not work.TBH she is so strong that really the only thing that will stop her is schooling. She is ridden with spurs and a crop, they do work, sometimes. But schooling is the way we are going, you only cover problems not deal with them with gadgets imho.

I have never been a fan of gadgets over schooling, Captain is a difficult, sensitive, sharp ride as you know but he is in a French link snaffle, nothing else. He is rarely ridden with a crop and when he is it is a dressage whip to remind him to engage his hind. He has been schooled properly and that is the way we are going with Fany. As I said in my previous post I only really asked the question because I was shocked.

How is Tim?
Rosie x

 

[YasandCrystal]

Hi Yasmin,

How is Tim?
Rosie x

Tim is good thanks. Out 24/7 unrugged and getting a bale of hay and 2 feeds a day. He has a fabulous robust 16 x 12' field shelter. He is 400% sweeter and no longer attacks. He only shoots his ears back on occasions now I am waiting for him to be freeze branded for his lou and then will turn him away with a herd for 3 months from January.
I keep faltering on it as I know he will drop weight - they only get grass and hay, but I know that this period will be cathartic and necessary for him to get over his past and to want to work with us and give of himself

 

[FanyDuChamp]

Poor Tim but also lucky because he has you.Can he not still be fed when he is turned away?

Captain is tucked up in his stable, I swear he is part bear 'cos he sure as hell thinks he is in hibernation until April! He is hating this wind and was playing up a bit, but has settled now and does not like even the walk round to the indoor school! He is 17-3hh of woss!

Rosie x