What bit for my strong, fiesty youngster?

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Molliex

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I am currently re-schooling my 5yo connemera from scratch in a happy mouth, loose ring snaffle. When i tried him he was in a loose ring snaffle and he was really unhappy in it, snatching etc, so i suggested that they get his teeth checked out and we discovered that they had never been done before, so obviously i assumed that was the problem and that he would settle down after they had been done.
So,when i brought him home, i bought a happy mouth loose ring for about the first 4 months, but he was still opening his mouth, showing his teeth like he was smiling, snatching and throwing his head up, so i bought a loose ring snaffle with sweet iron and copper rollers to see if he would settle more, but he seemed 10x worse in that, he was grabbing hold of the bit and trying to tank off, teeth still showing and his head was held up so high everytime i put any pressure on the reins. He was fine once we had a rhythm, but if i half halted, brought him to walk/trot etc he would throw his head up. This lead me to believe that he didn't like having the metal in his mouth (i have had this before with a previous horse who would only have a plastic bit) so, i put him back in the happy mouth and we are back to square one, only worse.

I know its not easy schooling a youngster as they are strong willed, but i believe that the bit is the problem, after only seeing deterioration after 7 months of schooling him. He has been back in the happy mouth for about 2/3 months, and i have been persevering with him as i really do want to school him in a snaffle but he is now becoming uncontrollable and dangerous.

He still shows his teeth (there is nothing wrong with them i have had them checked, his back is also fine, and have just purchased a custom made saddle specifically for his changing shape) although i am wondering if him showing his teeth may just be a quirk? has anyone seen this quirk before? he still snatches when asking for walk and halt,jolting me forwards, and he holds his head so high that i now really struggle to get him back from canter without raising my hands ( i have been told by my instructor to keep my hands low and by my knees to encourage his head down)He has recently started charging off with me into the fencing of the arena and I'm wary he is going to end up injuring himself. My instructor says that he is just rude and has no patience, which i agree with but he is becoming dangerous to ride now, and i think i may need a stronger bit, without going stronger than a snaffle if possible? Please any suggestions would be appreciated. And no hate, i know exactly how to school a youngster, i just need bitting advice, thank you.
 
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( i have been told by my instructor to keep my hands low and by my knees to encourage his head down)
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...y-strong-fiesty-youngster#OpAgM73WQ8xYAWQa.99

Putting your hands down by your knees to try and encourage his head to come down is not my idea of schooling a youngster, it will force the bit against the bars and tongue which he will find uncomfortable or even painful, this sounds as if it is a schooling issue as much as a bitting one, I would tend to go softer rather than stronger, a mullen mouth nathe would be my choice, then spend time in walk encouraging him to soften, flex and yield, riding more from your seat, he should be encouraged to relax and not move on to trot until you do have some control, he does not sound ready to be cantering.

Horses can be rude and impatient but only if they have reason to be, training him to voice aids will help with downward transitions, trying not to be too critical but your instructor does not sound overly helpful, there are so many exercises you can do to help, this situation sounds as if it is getting seriously out of control, a change of instructor to one with more understanding may be a good idea.
 
Thank you for the advice. I have never been told to have my hands by knees with any of my other youngsters, and so i was apprehensive when it was suggested that i rode like this with him, but i was assured that it would encourage him to soften and gradually bring his head down, which it does until i ask for halt/walk and he then puts it back up.
He has hunted in Ireland since aged 3, and so he has had no schooling at all, just jumped on and galloped off and so i believe this is why he wants to canter in circles in the school 24/7. When i schooled him today, i didn't canter but he is a very fizzy youngster and jogs a lot, so I'm currently focusing on calming his walk down, but he gets bored and impatient then resulting in a battle to stop him from cantering into the fencing. Your advice is appreciated as i seem to have come to a dead end with no ideas left as i really would like to keep him in a soft bit. Thank you
 
Honestly I would look at changing instructor, low and wide hands on a youngster with the way of going you've described is likely to make issues worse rather than better.
I don't have any bitting suggestions, but perhaps you might want to ask your vet or dentist if he has an unusually shaped mouth or thick tongue? Maybe the happy mouth just isn't playing nice with the shape of his mouth. If it were me I would be looking at having him professionally remouthed, but then I'm not particularly experienced with youngsters.
 
Thankyou, i will talk to my instructor and if there is no other method they suggest, i will look into changing them&i will call the dentist to have a look into getting him remouthed
 
Molliex said:
he is a very fizzy youngster and jogs a lot, so I'm currently focusing on calming his walk down, but he gets bored and impatient then resulting in a battle to stop him from cantering into the fencing. Your advice is appreciated as i seem to have come to a dead end with no ideas left as i really would like to keep him in a soft bit. Thank you
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You may find that simply walking smallish figures of eight will work in calming and slowing the walk. Just work along side the fence/wall starting with say 6m sized circles (of the figure 8) and stay on this until you feel that your horse ready to make bigger circles/go large etc. If your horse gets stronger and more feisty when you move off the figure of 8 you can return to the exercise until he is once again calm. There is something about staying on a pattern that works to calm.

I'd also agree with a change of instructor to one who understands bits and their action on the horse's head and mouth.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.
 
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Molliex said:
Thankyou, i will talk to my instructor and if there is no other method they suggest, i will look into changing them&i will call the dentist to have a look into getting him remouthed
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Remouthing is nothing to do with a dentist, I think the suggestion means to send him away or get someone in to educate him, mouthing youngsters is usually started on long reins and continued once they are ridden away, it sounds as if your horse has no idea what is expected of him and has started to rush about in a confused manner, going right back to basics with a more experienced instructor who can also get on and ride would really help you get back on track.
 
Yes i will get the dentist out, to look into getting him remouthed is what i meant as i will get him to double check that none of his teeth are bothering him first and then i will look into remouthing him. Everything just needs double checking before i rush into a certain solution
 
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Sack your instructor !! No instructor should tell you to put your hands by your knees to pull a horses head in! By doing this you are probably making the situation worse, he won't be going forward properly & will be making the grabbing worse!

If you have been working him for 7 months &he's getting worse something is wrong. Either get yourself a better instructor or send him away to get him re mouthed & potentially re broken! :)
 
kassieg said:
Sack your instructor !! No instructor should tell you to put your hands by your knees to pull a horses head in! By doing this you are probably making the situation worse, he won't be going forward properly & will be making the grabbing worse!

If you have been working him for 7 months &he's getting worse something is wrong. Either get yourself a better instructor or send him away to get him re mouthed & potentially re broken! :)
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This, basically :p

A video would help give us more insight into what's going wrong, but to me he just sounds confused.
 
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I will see if i have a video anywhere, but its looking like he may need to be remouthed. I've never had this before with any horse, thats why I'm so puzzled on what to do with him!
 
You need to break this down into workable issues.

Issue one - his head is too high. This is a problem with tightness through the back, it has very little to do with the head and neck really, and at this stage I would leave his mouth alone until he can relax. There are many ways to work on this, I would stick to walk and slowww trots for now. Hacking on a long rein will help, as will pole work and basic shapes (serpentines, loops, figure 8s etc) in the arena. Try and do some in hand work in a headcollar, teaching him to yield to pressure.

Issue two, he doesn't respond properly to the bit. This is easy to work on, again just do in hand work, asking him to stop with very light pressure on the bit. Make sure you give him lots of praise if he does respond well.

Issue three, he is tense! Is he getting enough work, is there any pain anywhere? Or is he just confused! Maybe think about gentle lunging (literally a jog) and wait until he is starting to relax and stretch before getting on.

My horse is to this day not completely accepting of the bit, it's taken 2 years to get him to the stage he is now and even then it's not an honest connection all of the time. With him you have to take a gentle approach, and warm up well to get him completely loose through his body before asking him to go into the contact.

Think of this - http://www.horsechannel.com/images/horse-expert-images/dressage-training-pyramid.jpg

You can't have any element without the others. Rhythm is easy to work on, make that your goal for the next few weeks.
 
Sounds like a tricky situation, for you and the pony.
Do you think it might help to train downward transitions from a neckstrap, just to break the cycle re him fighting in downward transitions? Might help him to accept a light contact. Just a thought.
Once you've satisfied yourself everything in his mouth is as it should be, and found a bit you think will work with his mouth conformation, I wonder whether some work on the ground might help ensure he really does understand what you are asking with the bit? Atm it doesn't sound, from what you've said, that he really gets it.
Might not be suitable for him, but quite a few of the youngsters I know (all WBs though) seem to get on well with a Neue Schule turtle top snaffle, seems to be clear but sympathetic.
Some trainers are great trainers, but not necessarily great with youngsters. Ideally you would want one who is! I can only speak for myself but I have found it absolutely invaluable to have a trainer who starts half a dozen of their own each year, has seen it all and is still doing it for themself. Any problem I have, they have had with bells on, and sorted.
 
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