What breed do you think my dog is?

Oooh no - I would far rather see a brushy tail that a docked one!
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I am so vehemently anti-docking. Cannot believe it still goes on!
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Mind you, there is no guarantee his offspring would have bushy tails and spots!
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Thank you Genie and Tia I think you have both made valid points, and I agree with you that the JRT is a small whitish terrier that does the job of ratting and flushing out pheasants, both of which Dicky is amazingly good at and it is his primary function at the farm.

He is young yet and still a bit dainty, of that I am aware, I would expect him to get heavier and muscled up more when he is a bout 3-4 y.o. I wouldn't use him until he was around that age either if I was going to do so at all.

I was just interested to see what the general opinion was about a type of dog that the Kennel club has no set standard for.

I see no harm in breeding from him, initially for my own use on the farm and see how his progeny may turn out.

I would not be going into mass-production for financial gain as some people on this forum seem to think (Ecodomino).

Perhaps it is because those that are breeders and sell JRT types for quite considerable sums, would prefer to keep the competition to the minimum, and that is why there is so much objection to my dog.
None of any of my previous JRT (over the past 30 years) had papers and all were a "hotch potch" of markings and builds, spots and patches wire haired or smooth, some long legged and graceful others squat and not very athletic.
All came from farms and were from working stock.

I think an air of snobbery is starting to creep in to this discussion , and I can't say I am surprised, sadly I did expect it.
 
I was accused of snobbery once as I said I never take a mongrel out as a gundog
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My poor little doglet was docked before I got her. It was previously illegal here but the owner took them into the ROI to get it done.
 
Of course you see no harm - the ones that'll se harm are the unwanted pups and the rescues full to the seams of similar unwanted dogs.

There is no getting through to some people.

Personally I wont breed unless I have a perfect specimin of a dog - is that too much to ask?
 
I think he's gorgeous... if you had enough people already queuing up for puppies, then I'd go ahead and breed from him and it doesn't matter a damn whether he is bred to a breed standard. I'd say from a veterinary point of view, that 'breed standards' are what has destroyed most of the fairly functional 'working' breeds in the last 50 years. I have indelible memories as a student of being harangued in a consulting room as the living face of the anti-christ for suggesting to a professional breeder that perhaps he ought to have his dog tested for HD before he used it at stud. He was spitting (literally) mad that I would suggest he 'sacrifice type' for something as irrelevant as health.

I realise this has changed somewhat, but I don't think there's a single breed where current 'type' is an improvement on that of 50 years ago and there are a lot where is vastly, vastly worse.

and - genetics....

limitation of genetic diversity by 'line breeding' (aka anything that lifts Wright's Coefficient of Inbreeding above single figures) affects, above all, the immune system. That's why we're seeing such catastrophes in terms of auto-immune crises and reduced immunity in so many of the heavily line-bred breeds - diseases showing up as anything from meningitis, to auto-immune arthritis to pemphigus/pemphigoid, to 'PUO' (pyrexis of unknown origin).

Line breeding has had its day - so if you're breeding healthy pups with good genetic diversity, who have owners waiting, that's probably as good as it gets.

THere are way too many pups being bred by idiots at the moment - too many people breeding too many dogs. Fundamentally, it wouldn't hurt if there were a moratorium on breeding ALL dogs for the next 2-3 years, (people too, but for longer) but that's never going to happen. The next best thing is that those who do breed responsibly make sure they take all possible precautions against breeding disease or poor temperament and always only breed for need.

After that, we just need to get used to the idea that the rescue centres will be heavily culling the over-bred individuals. And one day soon, war or famine will cull the people too...

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Being an owner of collies for most of my life; I completely agree with you Eceni with respects to the KC destroying the breed type for dogs such as these.

All of my collies have been ISDS collies - I have no time for the Kennel Club.

Can someone answer this question for me please? Does anyone have KC registered papers for their JRTs, I am presuming not, as they aren't recognised by the KC?
 
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Personally I wont breed unless I have a perfect specimin of a dog - is that too much to ask?

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Not at all - but it depends who's defining the 'perfect specimen'. THere are 'perfect' bulldogs out there which are perfect by the breed standard. I used to spend every tuesday anaesthetising them for the surgeons to do multiple plastic surgeries on their nose, soft palate, tonsils, trachea in order that they might be able to breathe well enough to walk more than ten paces without falling over.

so a 'perfect specimen' by my standards - which are those of health, conformation (for work, not for showing) and temperament - might not be yours.

For instance, come the revolution, when I'm in charge (:)) nobody, but nobody, will be allowed to breed from a dog that has a hip score of greater than 0 (zero - that is, perfect hips), if it has any evidence at all of elbow displasia or other arthritis, if it has eye disease in any part of a 20 generation pedigree... the list will be huge.

there will be very, very few dogs breeding in my new revolutionary world. But they'll be healthy, sane and sorted. And I"ll only let them go to people who treat them with respect, intelligence and forethought. That should narrow down the number of homes as well....

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Thank you Genie and Tia I think you have both made valid points, and I agree with you that the JRT is a small whitish terrier that does the job of ratting and flushing out pheasants, both of which Dicky is amazingly good at and it is his primary function at the farm.

He is young yet and still a bit dainty, of that I am aware, I would expect him to get heavier and muscled up more when he is a bout 3-4 y.o. I wouldn't use him until he was around that age either if I was going to do so at all.

I was just interested to see what the general opinion was about a type of dog that the Kennel club has no set standard for.

I see no harm in breeding from him, initially for my own use on the farm and see how his progeny may turn out.

I would not be going into mass-production for financial gain as some people on this forum seem to think (Ecodomino).

Perhaps it is because those that are breeders and sell JRT types for quite considerable sums, would prefer to keep the competition to the minimum, and that is why there is so much objection to my dog.
None of any of my previous JRT (over the past 30 years) had papers and all were a "hotch potch" of markings and builds, spots and patches wire haired or smooth, some long legged and graceful others squat and not very athletic.
All came from farms and were from working stock.

I think an air of snobbery is starting to creep in to this discussion , and I can't say I am surprised, sadly I did expect it.

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Don't put my name in brackets, if you're aiming a comment at me say it out right!

Sorry but with the "commanded money" or however you put it, that was how it came across to me.

I don't think people, I for one, have shown an air snobbery, just voiced my opinion! I've got three traditional short legged Jack Russell Terriers and they're fantastic little dogs, I also have pedigree dogs, who are also fantastic dogs. I've bred 3 litters of non papered Jack Russells - that wasn't my objection if you read my post properly, I merely said I didn't agree with what you wanted to do because he was cross breed, bit of a difference!

I don't see it as competition if you choose to breed from your dog and I certainly don't sell my puppies for a "considerable sum" as to me the home is more important than the price. I breed for the enjoyment of it not to "compete" with any body.

At the end of the day it makes no difference what any body says, you breed from if you want to, don't if you don't want to - the final decision is yours no one elses. And you say you were interested in peoples opinions on him/breeding from him and yet all you've done is fight those opinions and get on the defensive, instead of accepting them and making your own mind up.

I'm not arguing over something as petty as this, you asked opinions I gave my - you didn't like it. End of.

ETA: Eceni I think you hit the nail on the head about irresponsible breeders.
 
They aren't, I've already said that. All I've said was that I didn't agree with cross breeding. I could register them with the Jack Russell Terrier Club of Great Britain - they've set up their own standard and hold shows etc
 
Therefore I think that was the point that a poster was making; that without being KC registered, they are all, more or less, a mishmash?

When you register with the JRTC of GB, do these papers have the heritage and bloodlines on them? (I am genuinely interested by the way.
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crossbreeding??......you can't beat a border terrier cross jack russell for ratting..and they are a really smart looking little toughie dog.
 
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crossbreeding??......you can't beat a border terrier cross jack russell for ratting..and they are a really smart looking little toughie dog.

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pictures? - we need pictures....
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(does sound nice...)

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I see what you mean about them being mishmashed (lol) but taking what you'd class as a traditional JR (e.g. one like my Mouse, predominantly white with tan, short legs and wire or smooth coat) to another traditional JR would give you a litter of traditional JRs, whereas taking a cross breed to a JR or another cross breed would give you a litter of cross breeds. I know what I mean
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I *think*, because I've not got round to doing it - so going from what a friend who does register them has told me, that you get more of a certificate with the details on as opposed to the papers you'd get with a normal pedigree. If I explain what's on her certs it might be easier
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She's got an A4 certificate with what known heritage she has, some of these are just pet names with the earlier litters. Then it's got the affix that she's registered with the JRTGBC so it'll have that in place of pet names - am I making sense? Then it's got a birds eye view of a puppy shape and someone (think it's a vet) fills out the markings and colourings of the puppy. This is done for each puppy. I think they also include other details, for example she has her lot eye tested.

I don't know if it's more helpful on their website http://www.jackrussellgb.co.uk/
 
So a bit like one of the horsey "type registrations" then? Like they use for sports horses and spotted ponies etc. ?

Thanks for answering - I was just curious.
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Lol!! Same here, I have breed registry papers for my horses and they show the complete lineage, but I have seen some horses advertised as ISH or whatever, and when you look at the "pedigree" it is often seriously lacking
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, so I just assumed it was similar to JRTs.
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Well whatever the ins and outs of pedigree/kennel club registering I wouldn't be putting that dog to STUD!

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No me neither but I was just explaining the "ins and outs" to Tia
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Perhaps it is because those that are breeders and sell JRT types for quite considerable sums, would prefer to keep the competition to the minimum, and that is why there is so much objection to my dog.

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Don't think you'll find many JRT breeders on here!!!

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I think an air of snobbery is starting to creep in to this discussion , and I can't say I am surprised, sadly I did expect it.

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There was no 'snobbery' just differing opinions.............You asked would my crossbreed make a good stud dog? Most people opinion was............NO (with various reasons - no.1 being that there are enough crossbreed around anyway)!!!

I have a great JRT, very trainable and good ratter (but that isn't enough to make him a good stud dog..............especially now he has been castrated!!!!)
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On the subject of prices for JRT pups I personally think that £150 - £350 is a considerable sum for a scruffy terrier that is not recognised by the KC and therefore has no papers, - yet there are plenty to be found on internet websites and the local papers.

Eceni - thanks for your balanced, very well informed and obviously science based comments. I am in total agreement with you as regards line breeding and the importance of temperament, health and conformation.

Further to the comments about breeding from a "perfect specimen"(ha ha) , well, anyone who knows their history may remember a certain Dictator some 60 years ago that decided to inforce his ideals of perfection on a human population.
This science, known as Eugenics, is well documented as being pretty much a failure. I am in total agreement with Eceni, who points out ideals of perfection maybe vastly different, and i would add, especially if looks are held in higher esteem than ability to do a job that the type is bred for in the first place!
50- 100 years ago or more JRT s were a non specific scruffy terrier that could do the job of ratting and rabbiting, and that's what my wee dog is brilliant at!

The Rescue centres that I visited when trying to find a dog like Dicky, were just full of medium to large sized dogs many of them pedigree types such as German Shepherds, boxers and Sheepdogs.
I could not find a young athletic wee scruffy JRT type anywhere.
Two of the centres I visited said that such types were snapped up as quickly as they came in. So I think that the assessment by some contributors that I will be adding to the huge numbers of unwanted dogs is a tad unlikely.
All I was planning to do was produce a small scruffy terrier of good temperament, conformation, health and ability something that was around 50 to 100 years ago, on a very small scale to a few people who had expressed an interest.
I would also point out that I am a biologist and a Forensic Archaeologist, and I am fully aware of the importance of conformation on performance, and the significance of genetic diversity within a population.
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You are looking in the wrong rescues.

Anyway now you are starting to piss me off with your blatant ignorance. The people on here are your market you foolish girl you'd do well to listen to what they think....
 
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You are looking in the wrong rescues.

Anyway now you are starting to piss me off with your blatant ignorance. The people on here are your market you foolish girl you'd do well to listen to what they think....

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well I think it's a jolly good idea - and i would be part of the potential market. I don't give a toss about a KC registry - in fact as long as I can be sure of the criteria of health, temperament/trainability and working skills, I'd be entirely happy

Myself, I'd put him to a good whippet, but that's partly because I don't like white dogs, which shouldn't be the criterion for breeding at all, but I can't help the influence - besides, I'd like a good rabbiting dog that can not only bolt them, but chase them down and next to a Tudor Hound (working cocker x whippet), a good parson/whippet 'whirrier' is an old and tested mating.

but I agree that good, long-legged Parson Russel type is like gold dust. If you can create them, feed them well (I'd go for a rmb diet, but that's another can of worms) and place them in good homes, go for it.

when the oil runs out and/or becomes too expensive to afford- which will be sooner than we like to think, a sane, safe working dog will be a very useful asset for those of us lucky enough to live in the country.

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when the oil runs out and/or becomes too expensive to afford- which will be sooner than we like to think, a sane, safe working dog will be a very useful asset for those of us lucky enough to live in the country.

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What - for breaking to harness? Using as fuel?
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Nope - that's what the horses are for....

the dogs will a) keep the rats off the chickens and b) help provide bunnies for the pot.

that's what they used to do - no reason why they can't do it again.

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You are looking in the wrong rescues.

Anyway now you are starting to piss me off with your blatant ignorance. The people on here are your market you foolish girl you'd do well to listen to what they think....

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Whoooo!!! Starting to get abusive now are you!
Its quite clear that some people are incapable of having a debate without getting emotional and resorting to insult tactics.
How pathetic
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