what can I do with these hooves? :(

Emilieu

Emilieu

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Ok so Deans has had 15 weeks in heartbars to correct the angle of his pedal bone and is now sound when shod. Going forward he is to be be shod all round in natural balance. Some people might remember I wanted to take him barefoot instead of the heartbars but vet and farrier were both against it and I was warned I would put him at risk of trauma induced laminitis. So I put the plan on the backburner. I changed his feed to a barefoot friendly diet and hoped that, while the heartbars fixed the angle, the diet would improve his hoof quality meaning I could try to take the shoes off altogether at a later date.
Anyway he lasted four days in the natural balance shoes before losing one in the field. He was crippled without it :( worse than ever before :( so I have two issues. 1) these shoes are never going to stay on - plus everytime they come off they bring half of his hoof with them. 2) it seems we are further away from barefoot being a possibility.
Sorry for the essay. I quess my question is: apart from diet, what can I do for my poor boys feet?
 
Emilieu said:
Ok so Deans has had 15 weeks in heartbars to correct the angle of his pedal bone and is now sound when shod. Going forward he is to be be shod all round in natural balance. Some people might remember I wanted to take him barefoot instead of the heartbars but vet and farrier were both against it and I was warned I would put him at risk of trauma induced laminitis. So I put the plan on the backburner. I changed his feed to a barefoot friendly diet and hoped that, while the heartbars fixed the angle, the diet would improve his hoof quality meaning I could try to take the shoes off altogether at a later date.
Anyway he lasted four days in the natural balance shoes before losing one in the field. He was crippled without it :( worse than ever before :( so I have two issues. 1) these shoes are never going to stay on - plus everytime they come off they bring half of his hoof with them. 2) it seems we are further away from barefoot being a possibility.
Sorry for the essay. I quess my question is: apart from diet, what can I do for my poor boys feet?
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Some pics of the hooves (side view from the ground and sole views) and a list of what he is eating would be helpful.
 
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I took these at the vets while his shoes were off. No sole view (will take one tonight) but basically think incredibly flat with poor thin looking frogs.
He eats a handfull of grass nuts soaked, a handful of hi fi, a cup of spillers high fibre nuts, probalance and brewers yeast twice a day. Ad lib haylege, been on box rest but now out for around 6 hours on poor grazing. I can try to get better pics of feet later x
 
OP - don't be too down hearted. Incredibly flat with thin looking frogs is common and resolvable. But not with heart bars or natural balance which IME can exacerbate these problems. It is also very common for horses to be pretty sore when they come out of NB.

I agree with previous poster why not try boots and pads? Perhaps your vet and farrier don't have any experience of these and don't realise how useful and effective they can be if fitted properly.

Although photos can be misleading it would appear that your horse has a very different healing angle to that in the rest of his hoof. Most of the time that is dietary, although it can as CPTRayes has alluded to, be a metabolic issue such as Cushings.
 
He has not been tested for these. I know the shoes have caused the issue but I'm wondering how I could improve it to get him comfortable enough to start trying boots and pads etc. I couldnt take shoes off. Honestly he could hardly walk with just one missing. I thought there might be something I could do to strengthen the hoof enough to take the shoes off.
What is the healing angle please Lucy?
 
Emilieu said:
He has not been tested for these. I know the shoes have caused the issue but I'm wondering how I could improve it to get him comfortable enough to start trying boots and pads etc. I couldnt take shoes off. Honestly he could hardly walk with just one missing. I thought there might be something I could do to strengthen the hoof enough to take the shoes off.
What is the healing angle please Lucy?
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OP - This is territory which requires 'hands on' for proper advice. So everything posted is generic, rather than specific to your horse and circumstances.

Hooves are compromised by metal shoes. Any good vet or farrier is unlikely to disagree with this. Some horses cope with the compromise well and others not so much. Some not at all.

The trouble is in the more compromised scenarios the shoe does such damage that it is inevitable that when the shoes come off it is a bit of a shock to all concerned. Leaving the shoes on won't change this. And while you can feed a good diet etc, it won't reverse the damage being done to the structure of the hoof by the shoe.

The horse in the link below is my own. I know that she hadn't worn many sets of shoes in her lifetime, but the damage was still there. This case had lots of elements you wouldn't normally find, but suffice to say we did provide some pain relief when the shoes first came off and she is totally fine now.

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/contracted-heels.html

There are lots of reasons a horse can be sore post deshoeing

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/ouchiness-several-hours-post-shoe.html

For healing angle (apologies for this one my tech skills were rather poor)

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/healing-angle.html
 
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If you haven't tried boots and pads on your horse how do you know that he is too sore to be sound in them? Please try to borrow some and give it a go, because shoeing doesn't seem to have moved you any further forward and has possibly made it worse. if you simply can't get hold of any boots, get the lids off some tubs and cut them to size, put some padding under them and stick them to his feet with the really sticky 2 inch wide tape you can buy at B&Q and see how he is then on the foot with the shoe missing.
 
I would also ask for him to be tested for Cushings and Insulin Resistance. Weak feet are often caused by one of those two conditions.
 
I would also be very concerned that he seems to be getting worse in the NB shoes.

From the photos, it looks like the farrier's had to rasp a fair bit of hoof wall off to bring the breakover back, which suggests you may have flare. Your diet sounds ok (though you could try switching to well soaked hay) so I'd agree with testing for metabolic conditions.

It's also possible for the healing angle to grow down purely as a result of removing shoes - I've seen this with one of mine.
 
Some people might remember I wanted to take him barefoot instead of the heartbars but vet and farrier were both against it and I was warned I would put him at risk of trauma induced laminitis.
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Sorry to hijack OP.

Can anyone explain why the Farrier and Vet think that this would be the case? I thought that concussion was higher with shoes, than without. Is trauma induced laminitis nothing to do with concussion?
 
cptrayes said:
If you haven't tried boots and pads on your horse how do you know that he is too sore to be sound in them? Please try to borrow some and give it a go, because shoeing doesn't seem to have moved you any further forward and has possibly made it worse. if you simply can't get hold of any boots, get the lids off some tubs and cut them to size, put some padding under them and stick them to his feet with the really sticky 2 inch wide tape you can buy at B&Q and see how he is then on the foot with the shoe missing.
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Or there's these or similar to cut to shape (slightly larger than hoof imprint) tape on with duck tape and see if that helps. If it does, you have a good indication boots and pads will help comfort. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/EPS-4-lb-Pads
 
Sorry - can't quote as on phone. Cpt I didnt mean he wouldn't be comfy in boots but I would never ever be able to take them off, is this acceptable?
It was the heartbars not the nb shoes that damaged his hooves, his back hooves were in nb all along and look much healthier.
For the record the heartbars have done the job they were meant to do and he is at least now sound in shoes. I'm not displeased with the work that has been done except that I'm not as close to being able to take shoes off as I thought.
Faracat it was frosty at the time and his soles are exceptionally thin. This is why the vet felt I would be risking trauma taking the shoes off at the time :( I was thinking autumn might be a good time if I could strengthen his feet - even if I could get them back to how they were pre heartbars would be good.
Thanks for all the advice and links. Will go do some reading!
 
Emilieu said:
Sorry - can't quote as on phone. Cpt I didnt mean he wouldn't be comfy in boots but I would never ever be able to take them off, is this acceptable?
It was the heartbars not the nb shoes that damaged his hooves, his back hooves were in nb all along and look much healthier.
For the record the heartbars have done the job they were meant to do and he is at least now sound in shoes. I'm not displeased with the work that has been done except that I'm not as close to being able to take shoes off as I thought.
Faracat it was frosty at the time and his soles are exceptionally thin. This is why the vet felt I would be risking trauma taking the shoes off at the time :( I was thinking autumn might be a good time if I could strengthen his feet - even if I could get them back to how they were pre heartbars would be good.
Thanks for all the advice and links. Will go do some reading!
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Leaving boots on 24/7 isn't something I would advocate as a rule. But it can be done. I have had a client that due to circs beyond anyone's control needed to leave boots on their horse 24/7 for a couple of months. Very similar feet. Owner did take boots off daily for TLC but otherwise they stayed on through mud, rain and snow. This horse now has great feet.
 
For most of my shoeing referral career I was fitting H/B shoes with either long/med/short tongues, depending on the position of P3.
When I changed to solely barefoot treatment I had to convince myself that I could get what I thought to be the benefits of H/B shoes by only using the barefoot method.
There was never any doubt in my mind that when I fitted a H/B shoe I was making the foot even more reliant on shoes.
Even though I did have great results with caudal hoof problems, most of it was because I found a way of fitting the shoes that did not impede the expansion and contraction of the foot too much.
And it is this that always has been the main problem with any bar shoe…they cause feet to be weaker! by restricting their movement.

I never comment of photos so will not talk about your horse’s feet specifically but, In order to make H/Bars have any effect I would not fit them without x-rays, and in putting them on I would always be aware that I was minimising the expansion and contraction of the foot, more than a standard shoe.

If and I mean if you decide to go barefoot you must first get a team around you that is on your side, there is no point trying it on your own unless you feel qualified to do so.
The reason your farrier and vet made the comment that you stated is because there is a great fear of the unknown, along with the fear of change.
If you go on the Worshipful Company of Farriers (WCF) site and look at the (FAQ) you will see a barefoot question, it is answered in a way that will sum up the professions opinion on barefoot treatment.
 
Heelfirst said:
If and I mean if you decide to go barefoot you must first get a team around you that is on your side, there is no point trying it on your own unless you feel qualified to do so.
The reason your farrier and vet made the comment that you stated is because there is a great fear of the unknown, along with the fear of change.
If you go on the Worshipful Company of Farriers (WCF) site and look at the (FAQ) you will see a barefoot question, it is answered in a way that will sum up the professions opinion on barefoot treatment.
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Sorry to hijack the thread a bit but I was bored enough of work that I went and read the WCF FAQ section... No wonder my otherwise fab farrier is not exactly pro barefoot for anything in work... I shouldn't be surprised really if that is the mantra they're given in training re working barefoot! What is on the curriculum for farriers re barefoot methods? Surely it would be a good idea for them to be encouraged do some CPD reading on the topic so that then they can decide for themselves?
 
Heelfirst said:
For most of my shoeing referral career I was fitting H/B shoes with either long/med/short tongues, depending on the position of P3.
When I changed to solely barefoot treatment I had to convince myself that I could get what I thought to be the benefits of H/B shoes by only using the barefoot method.
There was never any doubt in my mind that when I fitted a H/B shoe I was making the foot even more reliant on shoes.
Even though I did have great results with caudal hoof problems, most of it was because I found a way of fitting the shoes that did not impede the expansion and contraction of the foot too much.
And it is this that always has been the main problem with any bar shoe…they cause feet to be weaker! by restricting their movement.

I never comment of photos so will not talk about your horse’s feet specifically but, In order to make H/Bars have any effect I would not fit them without x-rays, and in putting them on I would always be aware that I was minimising the expansion and contraction of the foot, more than a standard shoe.

If and I mean if you decide to go barefoot you must first get a team around you that is on your side, there is no point trying it on your own unless you feel qualified to do so.
The reason your farrier and vet made the comment that you stated is because there is a great fear of the unknown, along with the fear of change.
If you go on the Worshipful Company of Farriers (WCF) site and look at the (FAQ) you will see a barefoot question, it is answered in a way that will sum up the professions opinion on barefoot treatment.
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Thank you :-)
 
Lego said:
Sorry to hijack the thread a bit but I was bored enough of work that I went and read the WCF FAQ section... No wonder my otherwise fab farrier is not exactly pro barefoot for anything in work... I shouldn't be surprised really if that is the mantra they're given in training re working barefoot! What is on the curriculum for farriers re barefoot methods? Surely it would be a good idea for them to be encouraged do some CPD reading on the topic so that then they can decide for themselves?
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And some of the information is just plain misinformed/out of date, dare I say wrong?

How depressing.
 
My mare wore Old Macs with pastern wraps 24/7 for six weeks when she was recovering from an operation on her hoof. She didn't get any rubs, but her sole got a bit soft by the end of the time. Could yours perhaps wear boots during the day and be in on a really deep, soft bed at night?
 
Yes, Lucy and we all know how hard it can be to unlearn things.

I was just wondering if hoof wraps would be appropriate?
 
soloequestrian said:
My mare wore Old Macs with pastern wraps 24/7 for six weeks when she was recovering from an operation on her hoof. She didn't get any rubs, but her sole got a bit soft by the end of the time. Could yours perhaps wear boots during the day and be in on a really deep, soft bed at night?
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Good idea.
 
amandap said:
Yes, Lucy and we all know how hard it can be to unlearn things.

I was just wondering if hoof wraps would be appropriate?
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Oh yes, which is why I will never be a great rider. In my day we didn't bother with learning proper brakes, we just rode them into a bog. Sadly big shortage of bogs on South Downs so my brakes are now pants. :-( and I'm too old/stiff to learn how to do it properly........

Re wraps - in UK very sticky wicket now FRC have updated their docs to classify as a shoe. Never used them myself. Have had to cut them off though and found issues with soft soles and underrun heels. The latter could be attributed to other causal factors tho.
 
amandap said:
Is this the Q&A being referred to? http://www.wcf.org.uk/frequently_asked_questions#Q3

I'm no expert or professional but it is indeed depressing. This is 2013... or is it? :(
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It is not just depressing, it is far worse than that. We so often put our trust in professionals to offer the best and most up to date information available, and this just isn't and it is from the governing body so what hope is there.
 
From my experiences with Vets, their training RE hooves is antiquated too. It's only when the individual Vet takes it upon themself to learn more, that their views towards not shoeing ridden horses are more open.
 
Heelfirst xrays were done before shoes were fitted. I guess if the hbs have made his foot weaker I'll just need to be a bit patient. I'd do the boots during the day deep bed at night if I could get him to a point where I thought he was merely uncomfortable rather than in pain without the shoe. Sorry the rest has gone a bit over my head!
 
Oh Emilieu, wanted to post to say I feel for you stuck a bit inbetween a rock and a hard place atm. I remember your previous post as yours had a similar diagnosis to Frank, he also had bar shoes (eggs) and they did wreck part of his frogs, made his angles look better but didn't make him sound.

Just curious as to why the NB aren't staying on but the HB were? as I think most would have more trouble with the latter.

Are you on livery? Is there any chance of providing a sand/pea gravel area for yours to go on if you were try shoes off?
 
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