What Colour Is She ?

[LittleWildOne]

I have a 5yo New Forest pony who is registered as black on her passport.
I bought her as a 2yo, and her colour has changed from black, to almost a very dark bay, and back to black since I've owned her.
Her winter coat is jet black, although she has cream hairs inside her ears. In summer, she can look black in certain light conditions but is more of a dark chocolatey brown with black points. She also has cream hairs showing beside her eyes, on her flanks and under her tail in summer, but not as much as a bay would have.
My pony - 2 weeks ago

Her sire

His dam has 2 buckskins in her pedigree, the first one is 3 generations back and the other is that buckskin's grandsire.

This pony is my pony's sire's half brother (both by the same stallion)

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This pony is my pony's half sister (both by the same stallion)

My pony's sire has produced bays, chestnuts, the above "palomino", and a buckskin, as well as my "black" pony and another "black" half sister.

I have a lot of photos of my pony, showing the changes in her colour. She is currently "black" in her winter coat.

Here are some photos of my pony.
May 2008, 2yo. (excuse the state of her, she was wild and unhandled when I bought her).

August 2008

December 2008

February 2009

April 2009

May 2009

June 2009

July 2009

April 2010

June 2010

July 2010

January 2011

Close ups of the cream hairs.
Cream hair inside her ears

The back of her ears

Cream hairs around her eyes

Cream hair under her tail

 

[KarynK]

There are a couple of possibilities, what colour is her dam? With the stallion where he has produced dilutes like the palomino what colour was the dam of that pony?

NF have cream in their lines, thought they not recognised as creams, so it could be that your mare has a single cream gene, but she would need a cream parent. Cream has little or no effect on black hairs so it can sort of hide. If not I would say she is probably a black and tan At a derivative of the Agouti gene that also produces bays.

You can test her to see, first you would need to test her A series, if she is aa she is a black Aa or AA and she is probably a black and tan. You can also test for the cream gene. But her parentage could rule that in or out.

PS looking at dads picture I would say he is not a buckskin because the reddish hairs in his coat should be yellow if he was.

 

[LittleWildOne]

Thanks for your quick reply Karyn.
Here is a link to my pony's pedigree - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rowhill+nightingale
Unfortunately, her dam's colour is not stated. She was by a stallion who was exported to Belgium. On this link -
http://www.newforest.be/hengstenalfabetisch.php?taal=&beginletter=E
his colour is stated as brown. Titanic was by a bay stallion and out of a grey mare.
I'll have a look to see what the palomino is out of. She was by my pony's sire, and out of a Tb x NF mare. I'm sure I have the details somewhere.
The buckskin (?) stallion pictured above is by my pony's grandsire (bay) and out of a mare by a black/brown stallion. Again the pony's dam's colour is not stated.
His pedigree - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bakeburn+bertie
Interestingly, his dam's breeding is mostly black/browns, blacks, browns, bays and 2 chestnuts in the information available. His sire (bay) is my pony's grandsire and he is by a chestnut roan and out of a bay.
There's nothing in that pony's pedigree to suggest where his colour came from, unless it was from his dam.

 

[Bryndu]

I would say she is dark brown.
Bryndu

 

[KarynK]

Too many gaps I'm afraid to give a good guess, but cream is quite common in forest bred ponies as there are a lot of buckskins out there, my sister did a colour survey on ponies out grazing a year or so ago, we found quite a few double dilutes from mares that in appearance were black or brown.

But the Bishops Ditch prefix is still in use so some enquiries could find you a colour for the mare. The New Forest Equine Directory (NFED) would be a good place to start or there are some NF breeders and enthusiasts on here so a quick post in the New Lounge might get you contact details.

The trouble was that the breed society labelled buckskins incorrectly as duns and believed them to be so, they banned chestnuts with flaxen from stallion duties thinking they were responsible for the palominos appearing, but of course by standing dun stallions they ended up with "blue eyed creams" (at least one of these appears to have been passed off as palomino for registration!!!)

So there are a lot of suspect black and browns in foresters that are in fact buckskins / smoky blacks.

Here are some photos I took when we went out to gather the info:

This was from a family group with buckskins:

 

[LittleWildOne]

Ok, next question
What colour could her foal be ?
She was covered by a bay NF stallion. His sire was bay (by a bay, out of a liver chestnut), and his dam was dark bay/brown ( by a bay, out of a dark bay/brown).
His pedigree - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/silverlea+harbour+light
His progeny were a chestnut (dam's colour not stated), a bay stallion (out of a chestnut mare which was by a black stallion and out of a chestnut mare with flaxen mane and tail) and a bay mare, full sister to the bay stallion.
The bay stallion produced a bay and a chestnut out of the same chestnut mare, (his bay son is light bay).
The bay mare produced 2 chestnuts by the same chestnut stallion (by a chestnut, out of a black).

ADDED.
Those are lovely pictures Karyn. In reply to what you say about NF colours being wrongly recorded, Knightwood Spitfire (5th generation in my pony's pedigree) has his colour stated as Dun on all breed pedigree but buckskin in other information about him. He was by a chestnut stallion, out of a chestnut mare, and out of a roan mare (by a black highland stallion - Clansman IV (1919). He was by a buckskin (?) stallion - Glen Aros (1913) and out of a brown mare - Loch Schridian (1913).

 

[LittleWildOne]

I posted a question on both NFED and Forest Chat. My pony's dam was bay and she died in October last year

 

[KarynK]

With chestnut that is easy, if the stallion is a Bay and produces a chestnut regardless of the mare's colour then you know he carries chestnut, you can only get a chestnut if both parents are chestnut, one is a chestnut and the other carries it or if both are carriers.

What you don't know is the other Agouti gene of the sire, if he had produced a black then it would be A (as he is bay) and a (a carried black). But since true blacks are very hard to tell from browns you can not be sure without testing.

What you don't know is what your mare caries in the way of chestnut or her agouti status.

So at the moment you could have a chance of chestnut, if she carries it, if she does you have a 25% chance of chestnut. But if you get a black base it's then what Agouti series is inherited as to if that foal is a true black, a brown or a bay. IF she has no chestnut gene then you cannot get a chestnut from her no matter what you breed to.

If you have Highland in the pedigree then Dun is a real possibility and I had heard that a bit Highland had been introduced. I did see a little red dun colt at the Forest Sales in 2009, he had been entered as a chestnut!

 

[LittleWildOne]

Okay, so................... my pony's sire is bay and has produced 2 chestnuts that I know of. One of them has a flaxen mane and tail, and light colouring around his eyes, muzzle and underside (pangare ?). I can't post a photo as the one I have seen has copyright printed over it. His name is Lyndhurst Firedragon and he is by my pony's sire (bay) and out of a chestnut mare. His dam is by a bay stallion and out of a chestnut mare.
This pony has Knightwood Spitfire on both his sire (5th generation) and dam's (7th generation) sides. On his dam's breeding, there are a buckskin at G4, a "dun" at G5 (the buckskin's sire), another buckskin at G6 (the "dun's" sire) and Knightwood Spitfire (stated as dun) at G7 (the buckskin's sire). It really looks like people have guessed these duns and buckskins colours as they descend from the 2 highlands named in my pony's pedigree.
(I've also found another advert for a golden palomino by my pony's sire, and a dun colt from 2008 BR sales by my pony's sire).
So, my pony has bay, chestnut , "dun" and palomino half brothers and sisters, ALL by Bakeburn Jethro. My foal's sire has bay and chestnut offspring, who have produced bays and chestnuts.
I'm thinking my foal will most likely be bay, could possibly be chestnut, or (with the palomino and "dun" half siblings) I could even maybe get a bit of a surprise ! Karyn, I will be pestering you with photos when my foal is born
He/She is due early May

 

[LittleWildOne]

I've just found out from NFED that my pony's dam had only 4 foals.
She was called Bishops Ditch Mistake (bay), by East Boldre Titanic (brown), out of Rowhill Blossom (colour not known). Titanic was by a bay stallion (Monkshorn Trooper) and out of a grey mare (Amy). Foaled - 2000.
1 - 2006 - My pony, Rowhill Nightingale ("black") her only filly, by Bakeburn Jethro (bay).
2 - 2007 - Rowhill Bay Rum (bay) colt, also by Bakeburn Jethro.
3 - 2009 - Rowhill Oliver (bay) colt, by Furzley Marinaide (dark bay).
4 - 2010 - Rowhill Warrior (dun) colt, by Rowhill Senator (dun).
She died in October 2010 aged 10. She was a forest running mare and may have died as a result of a RTA.

 

[KarynK]

You might well have a line with no chestnut there unfortunately with mares they don't usually have enough progeny to tell for sure and she was not bred to a chestnut so some or all of the stallions may not have had a chestnut gene. The trouble is that chestnut hides like that and then can suddenly pop out somewhere!!!

What a shame she died, a lot are killed on the roads each year people (apart from the tourists of course) just don't slow down despite a 40mph limit and all the adds they put out. I may well have seen her when sis and I did the survey as the Rowhill horses run near Exbury I believe and I think they are bred by one of the Agisters. But equally that is the bit that holds the rat run roads from Hythe to Lymington and goes through Beaulieu so the traffic is heavy and too fast.

I do like the Forest Breds, they are tough little beggars, sure footed, traffic proof and can survive on thin air, but they do tend to have strong opinions on some things and are not always the ideal kids ponies they are often advertised as!!!

 

[LittleWildOne]

Here are a few more photos of my mare, taken today.
In natural light (ok, I know, she's a native and has a full neck rug on She's just moved to a new yard. But the previous one was very exposed, she was living out and had no natural shelter, hence the rug. I couldn't just take her mw rug off, I'll do it gradually by changing to a lighter weight before removing it completely )

In the yard. Please note, there is a halogen light on above her in these photos.

In this head shot, you can make out the cream hairs sticking out of the front of her ears.

There is an orangey cast on some of the pictures, showing up on her mane, forelock and back. Please note - she does not have this much red in her mane under natural light. I will take more photos next weekend.
Her winter coat is changing right now. Hair is coming out in handfuls when I groom her. This will show the change in colour from her winter coat, through spring and into her summer coat between now and May/June.
I will take photos every weekend during her coat change and post them here.