What constitutes a puppy farm in your eyes?

[galaxy]

Asking this question after a rather lovely interesting thread on the fb GSP page tonight.

The short story is a gsp rescue (but not the official breed rescue) advertised some puppies in for rehoming that were 4 months old, yet stated that they were looking for their first home. So they were then asked if this meant they had come directly from the breeder, to which the answer was yes.

This created an outcry as to what an irresponsible breeder this was, then more skeletons fell out the closet on this particular breeder.

All their dogs are kept in kennels (not a breed that thrives in kennels) yet rarely brought out and have anything done with them. Yet they are clean fed etc. the bitches are apparently bred from every year (although I'm not convinced on this as all are also apparently kc reg litters and that wouldn't work) and then at 8 are handed to this other rescue again to Rehome. All have health issues (teeth/ ear infections, that sort of thing) when they go into their new homes.

All their breeding dogs are hip scored.

Last year they bred 22 litters!!

Interested in people's thoughts on this? Puppy farm or not?

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Good god, yes, 22 litters!! Anywhere that breeds that many and breeds their bitches annually must be a bit-a lot-dodgy.

 

[galaxy]

Good god, yes, 22 litters!! Anywhere that breeds that many and breeds their bitches annually must be a bit-a lot-dodgy.

Apparently all within rules, and nothing can be done, people have tried....

 

[Nicnac]

Yep - I'd class that as a puppy farm.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

If they keep complaining, something will be done, but it takes ridiculous amounts of time.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I would class it as a puppy farm, would be interested to hear what the breed club had to say about them, any good breeder has people on a list waiting for their puppy to be born, so for them to end up in rescue speaks volumes

 

[galaxy]

What influence would a breed club have DG? (I genuinely don't know. That hasn't been brought up in the thread)

Apparently they always buy in their breeding stock from abroad... They are reknowned in the uk so no breeder here would sell them a dog. So of course the pups are European hunting lines.... And what sort of owners would buy from a place like that....?? Not people who could probably cope with dogs like that. ��

 

[Dobiegirl]

What influence would a breed club have DG? (I genuinely don't know. That hasn't been brought up in the thread)

Apparently they always buy in their breeding stock from abroad... They are reknowned in the uk so no breeder here would sell them a dog. So of course the pups are European hunting lines.... And what sort of owners would buy from a place like that....?? Not people who could probably cope with dogs like that. ��

I know within my own breed(Lancashire heelers) they work very closely with their breed club and as one would hope the breed club have the best interest of the breed at heart and will have a strong code of ethics. Im thinking this breeder you are writing about is not ethical at all which would not go down well with their breed club and they wouldn't promote or recommend the breeder either which doesn't bode well for puppy sales. The only saving grace that I can see is their breeding stock is hip scored, I dont know what other health tests are relevant to this breed.

If they cant sell the puppies why exactly are they breeding unless they are breeding to produce the absolute perfect specimen and the others are being discarded, its all very iffy and you have to ask where the money is coming from to fund it all as its not self funding, its all very odd.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

All their dogs are kept in kennels (not a breed that thrives in kennels) yet rarely brought out and have anything done with them. Yet they are clean fed etc. the bitches are apparently bred from every year (although I'm not convinced on this as all are also apparently kc reg litters and that wouldn't work) and then at 8 are handed to this other rescue again to Rehome. All have health issues (teeth/ ear infections, that sort of thing) when they go into their new homes.

……..

Last year they bred 22 litters!!

…….. Puppy farm or not?

Certainly, from what you say, they are a puppy farm. Whilst there's nothing wrong with the production of, and selling of puppies, and perhaps even with the colossal number of puppies produced, that in itself shouldn't be the determining factor. What, to my mind anyway, would relegate these people, would be that the bitches are kept and used as an income stream, WITHOUT any apparently serious intention at the furtherance of the breed, itself.

If these people are breeding Gundogs in the numbers which they are, and were there any claim that there is a genuine interest in the breed and its improvement, then one would need to see a serious effort made regarding the selection of breeding bitches, and they would or should, have some level of competition behind them, to give the breeders claim any credibility.

For 22 litters to be produced in one year, would mean that the breeders would probably have say 25 brood bitches, would I be right? For GSPs as a breed, there probably may not be that many suitable breeding bitches, in the Country! Even were the breeders aiming at the show and pet markets, then one would expect to have seen their brood bitches shown, at the very least.

Alec.

 

[galaxy]

DG. I have no idea how active the GSP breed club is. I have never really heard much about them. I stumbled, by fluke in my eyes across H, who's dad has a very well regarded owner in the breed (he went Bob at crufts and was group 2 in the gundogs) she is helping me find my next puppy. Hip scores are the only suggested health test for the breed.

Alec. From what I gather at least some of the bitches they buy in from abroad have show and or working records. This is the story of one discarded bitch that makes me draw that conclusion
http://gsprescuesw.freeforums.org/vora-was-polly-solid-liver-8-yr-gsp-bitch-rehomed-t768.html

I don't think that the puppies being produced are even poor example of the breed. I do however think they are being aimed at the pet market and with those lines I doubt that's a good thing!

 

[Alec Swan]

Thanks galaxy. That's interesting, and assuming that we're talking about Vora, she is (or was) a handsome creature! I've only ever had a couple of GSPs, and really know little of them, but they are as a breed, particularly attractive animals.

Is 'Puppy Farming' to be labelled by volume of output, or by the level or lack of, care and planning displayed? From the post which you've offered, it would seem that the breeders 'appear' to take their plans seriously. I do still wonder though, how without full time staff, adequate attention can be given to THAT many dogs, and allow them to benefit from the individual attention that they would need. I must admit, that I would wonder if everything is as it seems. Dunno is the answer!

Alec.

 

[galaxy]

That's what I was thinking Alec. In many ways they tick many boxes as to doing things correctly.... Certainly from what I've read they are well within the laws of puppy farming. I think the problem is a moral/ethical one of clearly breeding too many pups and then discarding them and the bitches. But seemingly that is not against any laws so nothing could be done.

 

[howsthat]

Has anyone contacted the breed clubs?

 

[Alec Swan]

An elderly couple who have a holiday home in our village, lost their Golden Retriever at a great age. A couple of months later, they had another with them. To describe the poor creature as a bag of nerves, was an understatement. Apparently, she'd been 'used for breeding' and she was 6 years old. She was a truly pitiful sight. She'd had a good few puppies, judging by her 'dags', and she was simply unable to relate, in any way to human contact, including them.

Fast forward a couple of months, when they returned. The transformation was remarkable. It was the same animal, but a different dog! She approached everyone without fear, she looked SO well, and I had to ask again, to be sure, if it was the same animal. God knows what they'd done with her, but my previous opinion was that she was a lost cause, and that nothing would ever turn her around. I was wrong!! Apparently, it was their grandchildren who'd given her the initial impetus.

I'm not recommending the commercial breeders, because I'd feel for the brood bitches who seem to never have a life, but perhaps re-homing the adults can be a success. The G_R bitch certainly was!

Alec.

 

[gunnergundog]

Galaxy.....if we are talking of the same breeder, they sadly died of stomach cancer after many months of agony last year. Their OH is now struggling.

I do not condone their breeding practice nor make excuses, but a little bit of empathy in such circumstances would not go amiss.

Indeed, Birkenwald Vora was a superb specimen and I was instrumental in getting her back after she was sadly sold on.

PS If you need/want more info Galaxy am happy to share more by PM.

 

[galaxy]

Hi gg

Yes I had heard that news. Very sad for the family.

I will pm you

 

[aintgotnohay]

a puppy farm is somewhere where dogs are bred on mass scale and receive little or no care.food is thrown into the cages/pens every day etc.dogs are given basic care and thats it.thay have very little contact with humans and puppies are generally sick/ill with genetic defects etc as no health tests are given to parents or vac.a back yard breeder is someone who does it on a smaller scale purely for profit but will most likely take greater care of the dogs.a hobby breeder is someone who breeds to improve their lines and is very knowledgable etc and breeds only a few litters a year.

 

[twiggy2]

are they liscensed? I am not sure how many litters per year means you have to be registered with your local council and have some form of inspection but I sure sure it is a lot less than 22.

And yes I would class it as a puppy farm and it all sounds like bad practice, you can only register a certain amount of litters with the kennel club to each bitch during their life, so are the pups registered with KC?

 

[twiggy2]

Galaxy.....if we are talking of the same breeder, they sadly died of stomach cancer after many months of agony last year. Their OH is now struggling.

I do not condone their breeding practice nor make excuses, but a little bit of empathy in such circumstances would not go amiss.

Indeed, Birkenwald Vora was a superb specimen and I was instrumental in getting her back after she was sadly sold on.

PS If you need/want more info Galaxy am happy to share more by PM.

But pups are still being produced?

 

[flaxen]

A kennel club registered bitch is now only allowed to have 3 litters registered with the KC, after the 3rd litter ( regardless of how many are actually in the litter ) the pups are no longer able to be registered. Ive rehomed a pedigree bitch through my work due to this rule as she had had her 3 litters and was therefore no use to her owner anymore and she didn't want to keep her. Her breed are only worth money if registered.

 

[Alec Swan]

A kennel club registered bitch is now only allowed to have 3 litters registered with the KC, …….. .

The limit is actually 4, or 2 if born by cesarian section.

Alec.