What could be wrong with this mare? Thinking caps on!

if you have the vet out and funds are not an issue then it might be worth having her tested for EMS this can also cause irregular and prolonged seasons and god awful behaviour long before they start to get fat for no reason - took years to find out what was wrong with my mare

Good luck
 
Vet came out today and scanned her ovaries. They are now looking completely normal. She has ovulated recently but is not currently in season. Vet has taken bloods and dung sample. If all is fine she may put her on a 10 day trial of Gastroguard (as roughly the same price as scoping but less invasive.) So still we are none the wiser.
 
Wagtail said:
It's such a shame they can't talk, isn't it? Because AHT didn't find anything wrong with the mare, the insurance refused to pay for Rossdales or any treatment so far. It has cost the owner around £2000. If it turns out to be ulcers, I think the insurance will pay though (hopefully).
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They should do though. My horse also went to AHT. They didn't find anything wrong with him. I phoned the insurance company and they said that as there was still £2000 left on the insurance then I could look into further investigations. I then took him to the local equine hospital and had him scoped for ulcers and also asked for a muscle biopsy to be taken.
 
I've only read first and last page, but figured I should share something.

The example is me and humans, however I can't see how it shouldn't be possible (or even likely) that the same goes for horses.

I'm 23 years old and I have back problems. No way, says the doctors, you're too young. You just need to excercise. Got to a physical therapist and made my excercises, for nearly a year. No improvement. Managed to get an x-ray, which showed nothing and doctors still claimed I was well. I've had these pains for as long as I can remember, with a few tops and some kida neutral periods of a few days/a week. It got so bad I couldn't work anymore and yet the doctors claimed I was completely healthy and obviously quite fit too, so there wasn't a muscle problem. Conclusion was I was lying.. Had I been a horse, I'm sure I'd be deemed to have 'a bad attitude'' or something.. ;)

I kept nagging and eventually came to the spine and joint centre. Specialists. I got a better x-ray which showed that I have a black disc in my back, and scar tissue on two vertebraes.. Ha, proof! No wonder I was in pain, that disc has been broken and pressed on nerves and bone enough to make the bone grow scar tissue to protect itself. However, it's as healed as it gets now and not a reason for my pain. But it's nice to knoqw that there has been a problem and in fact I have not been lying...

This is the explanation I've got to my continued pain: From the first pain, my body protected itself by changing my posture and my way to act. Aka; I got stiff in some areas and moved differently in others (translated to the horse this could be the false frame) I'm not aware of this. But this, in the long run, cause other muscles, tendons and ligaments to get overworked, and hurting and on that way it went. now I have pain in my knee, my lower back, my upper back and my sides, sometimes my neck. From the start, I was only injured in a small area in my lower back.

The solution, except a lot of information on the matter, is more physical therapy. BUT this time it's focused on the muscles my body avoid using, since it has hurt in the past. Very small stabilizing muscles. They're supposed to be activated before any other muscle activates (i.e. you lift your arm; first small muscles in the back gets activated, and after them themuscles lifting the arm stars working) it's about miliseconds, but it's important. With me and others with chronical pain, these muscles works in the wrong order. So we're training them to react better and make the body function naturally. Believe it or not, it has started to help. A month of these excercises are helping years and years of pain to disappear, without drugs.

IF, and I say if, a similiar thing happened to your horse, it could be this; she got a trauma in her back somewhere, maybe a kick, rolling bad or something. She started using her back differently to save herself from the pain, and that cause other muscles to be overworked and start aching, and so on. You wouldn't see any change in the muscles, since the large, visible ones are still working, but the stabilizing ones are not. The solution would be training with next to no weight and focusing on moving right (not necessarily collected) and getting a lot of rest. Not working long at atime and not too often. Trot should be good, but I don't know what to do to help her activate the right muscles if it went that far. Perhaps an equitherapeut or horse massage person could help, I have no idea.
And of course this might not at all be the problem, but I figured I could share my story anyway, just in case :)

It may very well be ulcers too, they can be caused by lots of reasons. Stress for one, not enough straw/hay/grass for another.
 
Thank you. Yes I think that things that happen to us humans can indeed happen to horses. I also have an undiagnosed back problem. Sometimes I can hardly walk, others I am hopping around like a gazelle. It has become really bad lately but I hve avoided going to the doctors because they never find anything! What chance do we have with horses? They can't even talk. When the vets find nothing, they say it must be behavioural. But her owner and me know that mare so well and know 100% that it is a physical problem. We have experienced her being naughty and nappy when she has been well, and it feels completely different. So hard to convince the vets though.
 
she sounds very very like one of mine, a 6yr old homebred who has 'something' we can't put a finger on, wrong at the back end. after over a year of headscratching about this, I have come to a vague conclusion... I think my mare has badly pulled a tendon, ligament or muscles deep in her hindquarters, and is compensating, and very sore. i have had her on restricted exercise (small all-weather enclosure) all winter and she improved a lot for not being able to whizz around, but when she went nuts on the lunge one day and charged around for 5 mins ignoring me, she set herself back again. so, i'd try very restricted exercise for a week or two (just leading out in hand in straight lines, and/or turning out in v small area) and see if that helps.
i have 2 very high recommendations for an absolutely brilliant vet in France who takes lots of x-rays (v reasonable prices if you can get over to him) and can kind of 'see in 3D', apparently Sue Dyson really rates him, and i'm tempted to take my mare over to him tbh. just another idea.
very frustrating, i know. good luck with her.
 
Hi Wagtail,

You have almost described my mare! She is a lovelly sweet horse however probably a year after I bought her she started rearing and it got progressively worse. I kept on with her as somedays she can be very spooky and unreasonable. I had as many tests done as I could, had her ovaries scanned, put her on regumate, had a horse whisperer out, had a body worker out, put her on herbal treatments for calming. About 4 years down the line she reared up so high on a hack I started sliding off the back and had had enough so I turned her away.

Skip 6months and I got a body worker / saddler out for my other horse and got them to take a look at her, turns out it was her saddle.... I know so often people say have you had the back/ teeth / saddle checked but i so wish I had had her saddle looked at years ago! It was fitted by a master saddler but still, doesnt mean it fits sadly.

She definately is a sensitive mare and her hormones are definately playing a part in something, i just cant get a resolve for that.

Was she imported? If so and her owner is not in touch with her previous owner, she could of had an accident at some point.

As well as investigating the gastric route, I would get a body worker and saddler out if you have not already done so, so often major problems turn out to be really simple to fix.
 
PalominoMare said:
Hi Wagtail,

You have almost described my mare! She is a lovelly sweet horse however probably a year after I bought her she started rearing and it got progressively worse. I kept on with her as somedays she can be very spooky and unreasonable. I had as many tests done as I could, had her ovaries scanned, put her on regumate, had a horse whisperer out, had a body worker out, put her on herbal treatments for calming. About 4 years down the line she reared up so high on a hack I started sliding off the back and had had enough so I turned her away.

Skip 6months and I got a body worker / saddler out for my other horse and got them to take a look at her, turns out it was her saddle.... I know so often people say have you had the back/ teeth / saddle checked but i so wish I had had her saddle looked at years ago! It was fitted by a master saddler but still, doesnt mean it fits sadly.

She definately is a sensitive mare and her hormones are definately playing a part in something, i just cant get a resolve for that.

Was she imported? If so and her owner is not in touch with her previous owner, she could of had an accident at some point.

As well as investigating the gastric route, I would get a body worker and saddler out if you have not already done so, so often major problems turn out to be really simple to fix.
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I am suspecting the saddle here too. She had one professionally fitted a couple of months before all the trouble started. I am pretty good at spotting when a saddle doesn't fit but this one seems fine. However, a couple of weeks after it was fitted, the mare developed lumps on her back. They seemed to be painless and the vet said they were common and nothing to worry about. We did try her old saddle on her after she started with her pain symptoms and it made no difference, but maybe it IS her new saddle. It is very easy to place too far back or too foward and doesn't seem to have a 'natural' place to sit, yet it is horizontal, seems to have no pressure points and clears the spine etc. But it has started to bug me.
 
Update:

Her bloods came back as normal except for a marginally low white blood cell count. She is going for a full body scan next week. They are using new technology that apparently can even show up problems such as gastric ulcers. So I hope something shows up as her owner is paying for all the tests herself as the insurance won't!
 
jhoward said:
many things can cause ulcers, from a stressy horse to one that has travelled.
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Most ulcers are caused by a Hylobacta pathogen - they are present in many equine guts but only some go on to develop ulcers, having insufficient forage wouldn't do the guts much good!

If this mare has known irregularities in the lady departments it's a sure fire reason for behavioral problems.

I would think that the way forward is to test until a likely problem is proved before putting her on random treatments.

My old mare used to horse in January and regularly pin me against her box walls - just the kind of irresistiblity most blokes would like - but perhaps not quite the size and species difference !
 
UPDATE:

She has had a full investigation at the Royal Veterinary College at Hatfield. They did a bone scan and found increased uptake in one hock and small amount (insignificant) in sacroilliac region. Also found small amount of lameness (missed by both AHT and Rossdales) in that hock which righted itself with a nerve block. They scoped her for ulcers and she does have them. No problems with ovaries.

So the treatment will be further injections to hocks and gastro guard to treat the ulcers. Also she is to have her saddle refitted.

Will let you know if there's an improvement in the nxt few weeks. Thanks to all of you for your invaluable input. :)
 
Wagtail said:
Long story so will try to be brief. Beautiful 8 year old WB mare. Top European bloodlines. Fabulous paces, enthusiastic but very sane ride. Just a dream horse really. All went wrong a year ago when suddenly she started to act as though she was in pain. Tail swishing, bunching up in a false outline when normally she was very through and quite strong, and the strangest thing, looking round at her left flank like horses do with colic. Got the vet as so out of character. No lameness found. Thought it was behavioural, but no amount of strong riding would help, and she felt as though she would explode. In fact, she reared with me and almost fell over backwards.

Vet referred her owner to Sue Dyson at AHT Newmarket, who found no lameness but saw the behaviour when I rode her. We left her there a week and nothing was found to be wrong with her and did full xrays including spine. The staff there rode her and reported no problems, but her owner said it was obvious she was not working properly and was holding herself in the bunched up false outline. Had her back home and no improvement so she went to Rossdales who found bone spavin (missed by AHT), but such a small amount that it really should not cause a problem. The flexion tests were negative too. But they injected her with cortisteroids and she actually came right around 3 weeks later, back to her old self. However, it only lasted 4 months and the symptoms started again. She was fine being lunged, though I don’t think that she is stepping under and showing such floaty paces as she used to, but as soon as her owner or I get on she is back to looking at her flanks and refusing to go forward. When she does walk she holds herself all bunched up and her neck really arched with no contact at all. It feels as though you are riding a headless horse! She was injected again but this time it took over 4 weeks to work and only worked for 2 months. She has also had tildren, but seems to be getting worse and worse. It is not nappiness as we have checked this by having a horse that she is totally in love with walk ahead of her and she is exactly the same. All her tack has been checked, teeth done, overies scanned. I still suspect overies though as she is constantly in season and regumate appears to have no effect. I wonder if the hock thing was a red herring as it all points to a problem further up to me.

Any ideas, anyone?
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hiya i had a similar situation with a mare a few years ago and it was really simple the saddle!! even though i had it checked twice by a qualified saddler i then changed saddler and he told me he couldn't believe the mare was still hunting as the saddle was such bad fit so we changed saddles and she was as right as rain straight away i hope yours is this simple maybe not but sometimes it really is simple things just eliminate it by trying a different saddle or saddler ??? xx
 
doodleberry said:
hiya i had a similar situation with a mare a few years ago and it was really simple the saddle!! even though i had it checked twice by a qualified saddler i then changed saddler and he told me he couldn't believe the mare was still hunting as the saddle was such bad fit so we changed saddles and she was as right as rain straight away i hope yours is this simple maybe not but sometimes it really is simple things just eliminate it by trying a different saddle or saddler ??? xx
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she also did the tail swishing and looking round and shivering type thing and one day i was walking over to the stable with her saddle and she almost collapsed due to the swishing and shivering and i hadn't even got to her stable but looking back she was obviously telling me it was the saddle bless her
 
Thanks for update. It sounds as though you have something to work on now. I'll be waiting for updates after treatment. It just shows how important it is to *listen* to the horse, she knows whether she is in pain or not and you know whether her behaviour is out of character or not.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Thanks for update. It sounds as though you have something to work on now. I'll be waiting for updates after treatment. It just shows how important it is to *listen* to the horse, she knows whether she is in pain or not and you know whether her behaviour is out of character or not.
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Yes, with all of the vets and specialists telling us the problem was behavioural, her owner and myself had begun to doubt our judgement. It was so hard staying adament that she was in pain when they were all looking at us as though we were a pair of overly protective women! Our vets had told us the bloods showed no sign of ulcers and so no need for scoping. I spoke to her owner whilst the horse was away and said she may as well request her to be scoped as she was there. So she asked them and they scoped and found the ulcers!
 
It makes me angry, actually, that because AHT missed the lameness and the vets didn't think it worth checking for ulcers, this horse has suffered for a whole year and the insurance refuse to pay out because of the all clear given by AHT. They paid for AHT but ddn't pay for Rossdales or Hatfield. Her owner must have paid out in excess of £4k in investigative tests and treatments whilst still forking out for her insurance! If she didn't have her own financial resourses and just accepted what the vets told her then we would be forcing the mare to work and I dread to think of the consequences should she have totally flipped out. She is an extremely powerful athletic mare.

But we KNEW how this horse behaved when she was being naughty, and it was not the same at all. Just shows that you should stay faithful to your knowledge of the horse concerned and that the experts are not always right.
 
I read this thread with interest,
So glad that you finally found what was behind her behaviour..
But its a terrible shame, that the vets in the first place, had got it wrong.
Could there not be some recourse to the original vets????
I think I would be asking them, why they had missed these issues??? and for a discount of the fees, which could go towards paying the new vets..
 
I was thinking the very same about recourse with the vets especially AHT and especially since the owner has footed the bill themselves!
I have a similar situation - my horse has been diagnosed with low grade ulcers and I think these are symptomatic and not the underlying cause of his problems. I am going to try iridolgy, as I cannot afford a full work up and it's so hard getting the insurance company to pay as they refuse to pay out on anything 'behavioural'. I did have the saddle area of his spine xrayed for kissing spine.
Good luck and we will all be interested to hear the mare's progress. She's a lucky horse - so many would have sold her on by now and in some ways one can understand why - the investigative costs can be phenomenol.
 
Glad to see you have a resolve with your mare. I followed this thread with interest. it just goes to show that we know our horses better than any vets!
my mare went naughty and it turned out she had a slipped disk in her back that despite getting vets out over a 2 and a half year period, went undiagnosed and the poor thing was PTS.
Like you they just thought I was paranoid!!! Goes to show that when you know a horse you REALLY know it!
Hope the gastroguard works miracles for you
Izzi :D
 
Just waiting for the gastroguard to be ordered. I have advised owner to try that first before injecting the hocks again so that we can isolate the reaction to both treatments and have a clearer idea of which on is the main cause of her discomfort. I can't believe that now the insurance company have refused to renew her insurance even though they dodged payment for anything other than AHT. It makes me angry that they paid the vets that got it wrong without a quibble and refused to pay the ones that found something! At least we know we were not being stupid. I am so pleased we did not try to push her through the pain thinking it was behavioural. It is really strange, but with strangers, the mare will work, though it is clear (to us) she is holding herself in a false outline and just pushing herself through it. But with those she knows, she refuses to work at all. I think that is because she knows we will listen to her and understand she is in pain, where as with strangers, she does not feel she can tell them this. Unfortuntely, it was the fact that she did not react strongly against riding with the strangers that clouded the issue and led AHT to conclude there was nothing wrong with her.
 
I think your right about the fact she tells you knowing you will listen. I've had 2 horses that have done this, people automatically think they are just trying it on, so annoying!!

Is she any different on pain relief?

My thoughts would be

Ovaries
ulcers
ribs (had an ex racer who had trouble with ligaments in between ribs)

EPSM or similar, not all show muscle wastage until it is well established and it doesn't show in blood tests either. My last horse had to have a muscle biopsy to confirm it. Other people have just tried the diet and found that to relieve the symptoms
 
Sounds most definitely like Spavin- the cortisone injections may last up to 6 months to a year so could just be that the injections have worn off and she may need them re doing?

My boy has mild spavin he has his done approx every 6 months- it's degenerative so won't get better but is easily manageable( at the moment!) with Cortisone. When his injections wear off I know when they need topping up again- difficulty staying active and taking more weight behind, not so forward going, muscle wastage on quarters and- will try to go behind the contact which is a classic sign of a hind limb problem -as the engine is in the back end!
 
She has now been on her treatment for ulcers for nine days. Her owner tried to ride her a couple of days ago but there was no improvement, she was still refusing towork and turning o look at her left side. The ulcrs are in an unusual place (in the glands) so may take longer to start healing. We are having her hocks injected again onc the ulcer treatment has been concluded, as it will enable us to tell which condition is having the greater effect on her.
 
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