What do I do? Totally heartbroken.

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IWTO

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Please be gentle.. I'm sat here sobbing my heart out.

I've owned my collie for 10 years and he is nervous aggressive, he's always been this way, he's been to training, to behaviourists, diet changes- you name it.

The only way to manage it was to keep him away from strangers and dogs.
Two years ago I had my daughter, as you can imagine I was always especially careful with them but he has never ever given me cause for concern, until today.

My daughter had a biscuit in her hand and as she walked past him, he went to snatch it, she lifted her arm to stop him getting it and he caught her arm, he pierced her skin through her cardigan.

What do I do now? I don't think he's a rehomeable dog.

I don't know if I can trust him after this, accident or not, I wouldn't forgive myself if something else happened
 
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Oh dear! I am so sorry. You have done so well to give your dog a home when obviously not the easiest to manage.
I would have said that rehoming would not be kind to such a nervous dog after so many years.
I feel you have two options, you could try to keep him apart from your daughter at all times but you have had a massive warning and it could be her face another time and also give her a lifelong fear of dogs.
I am afraid option two is PTS. This would be heartbreaking for you I know but you have given the dog a good life and he wouldn't suffer.
By having a child, she is your most important priority. I love children to grow up with dogs but they must be as safe as they can possibly be.
Huge hugs.
 
I know your right, I've cried my heart out all morning. I've worked so hard to protect him from all the things that make him upset and the one time I wasn't able to protect him has been his last chance.

I feel totally responsible and horridly guilty about it all, I tried so so hard for him. He's such a loving dog and I've failed him.
 
From what you've written I'd be inclined to think that he was going for the biscuit, not for your daughter. Only you know what really happened and whether this is cause for concern, or just him going for a biscuit (could he not be trained to not snatch biscuits?). If the situation was as simple as you've described, I'd be looking at setting some boundaries rather than PTS, but you have to do what is best / safest for your daughter. It's a difficult decision, and I do feel for you. If it's any consolation I was bitten by several dogs as a child, and it's done me no harm.
 
He didn't go for your daughter, he went for the biscuit. Now she is 2 you must have been through the worst, he is obviously generally OK with her? Does he love her? I would be vigilant and see how it goes. If you decide you cannot manage then I would PTS, and never feel you have failed him, he has had 10 good years.
Both my sons have been bitten on the face by dogs (not mine) and I never asked the dog be PTS but it did make me even more careful. (One while wrestling a terrier for a ball and the other when he went to pat a terrier (again, but different terrier) on my brother-in-laws lap.)
 
From where I was standing he went to take her biscuit and missed, however he's a big dog and the mark on her arm shows his whole mouth went round it.

He is very food orintated and I've had to teach her not to feed him so as not to encourage such behaviour.

However, the other side of it is that he has bitten others before, mainly strangers who I have been lucky enough to have not had push for action- it's rare he's put in a situation where this needs to happen but over the years things have arose and I have learned how to work around them.
He picks and chooses the people he likes and that in itself isn't easy.
I guess my concern is whether if this happens again he accidental catches more than her arm? How do I explain that to the people (my ex/her dad) who have no compassion for my dog at all.

If he wasn't so nervous he could have lived with my nan but she won't have him because he's so unpredictable.
 
We had a JRT who was the same, he went for a friend who he had met several times before, she didn't approach him and is an experienced dog owner. We live on a farm with a popular walk going through it. We couldn't trust him and wouldn't be able to forgive ourselves if he bit someone.
I was desperately upset but I must admit once the deed was done it was actually a huge relief not having to deal with his problems.
 
I'm sure you've thought of it already but could he wear a muzzle? One of my friends had a JRT that sounds similar, and she just always muzzled him or put him in 'his' room when someone came round or when out and about in busy areas. I know that doesn't help so much with your daughter though - maybe just at mealtimes?
 
I'd be inclined to agree with Clodagh/PS here.

Can you keep them separate when any food is involved?

Whatever decision you make, you have NOT failed, you've given a dog 10 years of love and care. That's not a failure; that's a success. A giant one. Don't be so hard on yourself. Hugs from me.
 
Personally, I would avoid hand feeding the dog and avoid letting the child wander round with food near the dog. IMo, most dogs could make this mistake - particularly greedy dogs, it doesn't sound to me that the dog was trying to bite then child, it sounds like an accident.
 
I really do feel for you - what a horrible dilemma to be in. And as others have said, you haven't failed him in any way, you can tell you love him dearly.

In saying that, I think I'd be leaning towards PTS - as you've said, it's not fair to rehome him if he's so nervous and unpredictable, and it sounds like it's your behaviour and hard work that has prevented anything more serious happening before now.

If you keep him, obviously you can help your daughter to be safe around him, but as your daughter gets older, you will naturally have more children around your home - I personally wouldn't be willing to risk his behaviour around other children who aren't so savvy (and children will do stupid things, like go find the dog, even if you lock him in another room or similar).

I'm really sorry you're going through this. Have a hug from me too x
 
The dog has bitten people before - that in itself should be enough. The fact that he just bit your daughter should be the final straw for you.

I don't know any dog who has such terrible aim that it misses the treat and bites someone's arm instead. Next time it really could be her face - would you and your family be able to get over that and forgive you? I don't think I would ever forgive myself if I knew my dog had aggressive tendencies, but kept him anyway and then he bit my child.

It's not your job to protect him or make sure he doesn't get upset - he's an animal, not a child. It's your job to protect your children, not him.

A family dog should be just that. You shouldn't have to make strict rules and constantly be on edge just to have them in the same room together.

I completely get that pets etch their way in our hearts, and I promise I don't have a heart of stone. But I really can't understand why anyone would want a dog they need to be fearful of, especially when they have children.
 
I would just be ignoring this one. This is what happens when you walk past a dog with food - ive had it happen several times with my own dogs who have never shown aggression to anything. If you feed dogs treats out of the hand, they assume all food in a hand is theirs. Same with horses. Never treat from the hand and teach your daughter not to walk about near the dog with food. Try not to treat the dog as if it has done something bad, it doesn't know any better and nervous behaviour from you will wind it up more.
 
equi said:
I would just be ignoring this one. This is what happens when you walk past a dog with food
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I can't agree with that. None of my dogs would ever snatch at something from anyone's hand - never mind if they were just in passing. They all know that they are not to take anything unless I specifically say they can have it and call them over for it.

equi said:
What a nice lovely quote :(
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Well, look what (unfortunately) happens when you treat dogs like children.
 
Having a dog, any dog, and children together is a risk. It's obviously one you're happy with as you've managed it for two years. I'd be the same, the dogs are part of the family and I'm willing to accept the risk that they might bite me or someone else. Yes, I do everything possible to ensure that they don't but there's never a 100% guarantee, even with the most placid dog. I'm very careful around other people's children, and if there are so many children that I can't keep an eye on everyone then the dogs stay on lead with me or they go elsewhere. Yes, it's a worry that he's bitten before, hence why I mentioned the muzzle. It's not really acceptable that he tried to snatch a biscuit though, which makes me think this situation could be helped with some firm training regarding his behaviour around your daughter and around food.
 
He's never ever snatched before out of anyone's hands, mine or my daughters.

I do feel a guilt on my part of this as I let her eat her biscuit when watching her programme and it's unusual for me to not notice that he was following her, I am so so careful with them together, he is usually in his bed and he stays there mostly.

I appreciate that I have put her at risk and gosh, I feel horrendous for it. At the same time, I can't keep making excuses for him, even if this is an accident, I know that he has bitten other people which haven't been accidents, just his way of dealing with the situation at the time. He's muzzled when walked and is locked away when we have guests (rarely happens anymore). She doesn't go to his bed and disturb him but I do feel as she grows older she will become more interested in him no matter how much i keep them apart as she seems fond of him.

She wakes up and will call him (he can't get upstairs) then she will say good morning, she will say goodnight and she will say hello if we have been out the house.
 
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I dont mean to rub it in OP but do you have strict boundaries for your dog? my dogs are very food orientated but I could go out the room and leave anything on the table and they wouldnt touch it. When Im preparing food or eating they go out the room of their own volition because they know its not allowed, the 2 Dobes are rescues too and I nearly always have a foster here as well who always follow the rules. It seems to me and I may be wrong that you have made a lot of allowances for this dog, youve had dog trainers and behaviourists but you havent addressed his problems youve just managed them by
keeping him away from what upsets him.

You have 2 choices, you either put him to sleep or you manage him very strictly with some training, dont allow him in the kitchen or when anyone is eating, good training for your daughter as well is not to wander around with food in her hand but to sit down even if its eating a biscuit. It is easy to be lulled into a false sense of security sometimes but with this dog never let your guard down and if it ever happens again then there is only one choice.


If you can say hand on heart that you can do all those things then go ahead and give him another chance, if you cant then there is only one outcome. You dont say how much exercise your dog has, Collies do need a lot of exercise and need to use their brains if not then they get frustrated and problem behaviour occurs. Im reminded of Cesear Milan who always said and I agree with him the dog has to be at the bottom of the pecking order, this dog has no respect for your daughter so the status quo needs changing there.

I do not think for one moment this dog is rehomeable, not only for this latest behaviour but for all his other problems, he isnt a young dog and tbh OP no one would think any the less of you for having him pts.
 
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IWTO said:
He's never ever snatched before out of anyone's hands, mine or my daughters.

I do feel a guilt on my part of this as I let her eat her biscuit when watching her programme and it's unusual for me to not notice that he was following her, I am so so careful with them together, he is usually in his bed and he stays there mostly.

I appreciate that I have put her at risk and gosh, I feel horrendous for it. At the same time, I can't keep making excuses for him, even if this is an accident, I know that he has bitten other people which haven't been accidents, just his way of dealing with the situation at the time. He's muzzled when walked and is locked away when we have guests (rarely happens anymore). She doesn't go to his bed and disturb him but I do feel as she grows older she will become more interested in him no matter how much i keep them apart as she seems fond of him.

She wakes up and will call him (he can't get upstairs) then she will say good morning, she will say goodnight and she will say hello if we have been out the house.
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You are completely right in everything you've said there.

Quit while you and your daughter are ahead. You will kick yourself every day if something bad happens. Your daughter is just a tot and doesn't deserve to be maimed, which could very definitely happen by the sounds of it.

You shouldn't have to worry about leaving them alone together. When I was a kid and my mum would pop into the kitchen, she would come back into the living room to me hysterically laughing because our dog would be licking my feet. That is the type of thing you should be walking into, not a wound on your daughter's arm just because she wanted a biscuit!
 
You don't need our permission - you are an experienced dog owner and you will know in your heart of hearts what to do . . . whether that's keep him or have him PTS.

We are in a similar boat - we have a nervous aggressive collie (cross) boy - he's now 10 - and he has bitten my husband about three times when he has been trying to herd him (husband) away from something scary (a lawnmower) and this past fireworks season he attacked our other dog Daisy leaving her with stitches. In every other way he is a sweet boy, he isn't food aggressive or particularly unpredictable - he sleeps with one or other of my teenage daughters, is friendly to visitors (once they are inside) and extremely obedient and biddable inside the house . . . but I don't trust him 100% outside the house so he is walked muzzled and we try and limit where we take him because he finds it so stressful (and then reacts accordingly).

Living with a dog like this is hard . . . and it requires careful management. My husband and I have talked openly about having ours PTS . . . the jury is still out.

If our children were young, though - and we had lots of little people visiting the house - I think I might be shortening his future.

I do wish you luck . . . and you'll get no judgment from me whatever you decide to do.

P

P.S. I've just reread what I've written - we haven't considered dispatching our lovely boy just because he's gotten a tad over excited by the lawnmower and attacked our other dog once . . . make no bones about it, he is fear aggressive . . . and everyone in this house does everything they can to manage and mitigate his fear - all the time . . . I worry about how HE feels and what it's like to be in his skin . . .
 
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This is obviously a really hard decision for you. It sounds like you have given your dog a good life up until now, so if you did opt to have him PTS I would not feel guilty as it would be for the best I feel. Like you say, your daughter will probably want to become more interested and involved with him, which is tempting fate. The alternative is risky for obvious reasons, and I would question the lengths you'll have to go to to ensure the dog and child are kept a safe distance, and what impact that will have on your dog. As a nervous animal he will want to be near you for reassurance, changing this over night will be distressing for him. I too have a nervous dog who has and will nip, though it's only when she feels threatened, and the clear warning signs are there before she does; I don't however have any children yet so I can't honestly say what I would do in your position.
A friend of mine had a very dominant dog, a male Dalmatian, that would bite with force and intentionally, it took 3 bites to realise the dog couldn't be trusted, and though he was heartbroken he made the choice not to put his 3 young children at risk.
I don't think it's a decision to make quickly, and I would explore other options first - could you muzzle the dog, could the dog definitely not be rehomed with a family member or child-less friend for a little while whilst your daughter is still young?
 
No family member will take him, I can't blame them, it's not an easy ask.
I've spoken to 4 rescues today including the BC rescue and they've all said the same thing that it's unlikely they will be able to rehome him.
One of the rescues was very fair and said that in order to rehome him he needs to meet strangers, which he will struggle with so to them it's not an ideal situation and therefore they cannot help
 
We had our 13yo staff PTS over fears she would bite my son (Then 2yo), not because she was a nasty animal, but because she had gone death, her eyesight was terrible and she had arthritis, My son sat by her while she was sleeping, and she turned and snapped, she missed him, but the next time she might not have, on top of all her other ailments, and the fact I could not lock her away at her age, it was time to say goodbye, and not remember her as the dog that bit my son and scarred his face forever, but the amazing, loving, loyal family member she was, that gave us 13 years of happiness.

Its a hard choice, but you will know what the right one is.
 
When I was young we had a dog that turned nasty. I didn't know at the time but she had cushings brought on by a brain tumour. She turned unpredictable and bit people and several times went for me and my brother. Initially I thin it was accidental- out of a strange sense of protection, but as the illness progressed it got worse. I found it frightening as I wasn't that old but angry enough with my parents that they left it some considerable time before having her pts as for some time it made me frightened to be in my own home and wary of dogs.

I recognised as I grew older it wasn't the dogs fault, but my parents should have taken action earlier.

Thankfully it didn't put me off dogs for life and I've owned several dogs throughout my adult life, but I would always and did always err on the side of caution when I had children. I adore dogs, but children are more precious.
 
I think you know what you have to do :(

An added factor now will be that you will probably be a little extra anxious/tense around him, the sensitive nervous types will pick up on this and could make it worse.

Be safe in the knowledge you have given him a secure and loving home for 10 years and are ending it with compassion. It is a damn site more than many dogs get given.
 
ihatework said:
I think you know what you have to do :(

An added factor now will be that you will probably be a little extra anxious/tense around him, the sensitive nervous types will pick up on this and could make it worse.

Be safe in the knowledge you have given him a secure and loving home for 10 years and are ending it with compassion. It is a damn site more than many dogs get given.
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Nothing more to add.
 
Oh dear such a terrible situation but if the dog ever bit your daughter again you would never forgive yourself. Saying that if you really think he was going for the food and never meant to bite your daughter then perhaps you could work around it by always making sure that your child is never eating whilst the dog is around her. Only you know if you are able to control this situation.
 
I had a similar dog- border cross bearded collie with massive issues including fear aggression. He never bit me but did bite my vet bf, my lodger and could be funny with strangers in the house and kids. It was fine for years as vet bf and I could deal with him (and we used behaviourists and trainers over the years) and it was mostly just me and him and he was a great companion in many ways. It had nothing to do with the amount of exercise or boundaries-he had four homes in the first eleven months of his life before I got him. Vet bf and I broke up and next bloke was very dog unsavvy-and had two young kids who were scared of dogs anyway.

For two years we lived with the dog and kids always having a room between them (using child gates). No way would I ever have trusted him in the same room as them. At one point he bit new bloke and I came very close to having him PTS them but bloke talked me out of it. Dog could not cope with anyone going near his collar (except me) or even perceiving someone might be going for his collar and bloke had forgot one time. He was 12 by this point, then contracted a UTI that proved difficult to shift with a'biotics plus suddenly started losing a lot of weight. Since he turned into Cujo at the vets, we had him PTS without further investigation.


I would not keep such a dog again (should have had him PTS when he bit lodger but they begged me not to) although we currently have another, wonderful, person loving dog. I am not sure how happy that dog was despite my efforts.

So if you can rig something up with child gates maybe that could work-I don't think anyone would blame you though, you've given him a good life.
 
Ill tell you what I did in a very similar situation. It was over 30 years ago now, my son is now 32! We had our dog PTS. When I met my first husband he had a gorgeous little collie x, 2 years old, a cracking little dog but very defensive and would attack first, ask questions later if he was of a mind to. Within a couple of months of meeting said husband the little chap and gone for me a couple of times and bitten me once. However, we were able to manage him and in time he became very biddable with husband, me and strangely, my parents. Anyone else and he would revert to his nervy behaviour and once bit a paperboy and had a few near misses. When our son was born, initially all seemed to be going really well, we were very careful and had no undue cause to worry, although never left alone together or let the dog to close to baby. Son was about 9 months old and learning to crawl. The poor little dog just couldnt cope with this unexpected development and we had one near miss too many. It broke both our hearts but we couldnt live with the constant stress and worry, the dog wasnt as happy as before either because his life had changed and he spent a lot of time separated from us. We did have another dog fairly quickly, a Golden retriever pup who was a fabulous family friend and I have always had at least one dog since. I think it is always difficult to introduce a child to an established dog, better to do it the other way round (and I know that isnt always possible, when husband acquired his dog he hadnt even met me) and some dogs just arent suited to family life for lots of reasons. In your shoes, given his history and the difficulty of finding him the right home Im afraid I would PTS and wouldnt feel too guilty about it, massively upset, yes but please dont feel guilty. You have done a fantastic job, given him a good life under tricky circumstances and looked out for him. Some dogs dont get that for 12 months so he hasnt done to badly. I think having a dog is a wonderful thing for a child, you are obviously a kind and knowledgable owner, you will be able to have another dog in time, of a type and without history that will become a loyal family member, just like I did :)
 
So sorry you are in the position but I agree with the PTS option. I'm coming from a different angle as I was bitten as a child (I'm in my 50's now) and it has given me a life-long fear of strange dogs. I'm OK if I have owned them from a puppy but could never take on a rescue, that would terrify me. Imagine if your child gets bitten on the face next time. They will have scars that will make you feel guilty every time you look at them. Dogs are with us for transient times, such is the nature of their life expectancy. A child will be with you for the rest of your life, with any luck.
 
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