What do I do wrong to make Patches....

[Patches]

....forge in her trot stride?

Seen here in the picture I posted yesterday.

It's been mentioned in lessons as though it's something which I'm making her do. (ie "I'll have 50p for every time I hear her shoes clink!" is the usual comment)

I know she's not on the bit but we've been concentrating on getting her forwards and off the leg more without fussing at the front end. If I try to mess with the contact to soften her, she just gets heavy and leans. Instructor says this is because she's not forward enough and lacks impulsion. Work in progress as she's starting to become much more responsive now.

 

[Weezy]

Now see I LIKE this pic, she is obv bearing down (her tummy is pulled up) and she is using her body! I know she is not really pushing her hindleg under her, but I cannot see any *bad* there.

 

[Judie]

To be honest with the heavier types, like Patches, pushing them forward too much isn't really the answer, because as you say she just gets heavy on your hands. I would be inclined to slow the trot down a bit and tap her up with your whip on her bottom and half halt at the same time to get her to pick her back feet up higher rather than flat and forward, this will lighten her front end and help you get a rounder out line. Also lots of leg yeilding, again tapping her with the whip to encourage her to cross her hind leg over and become more active.

Activity isn't always a forward action, it's up more from behind which will encourage her to take more weight behind therefore lightening her front end.

When I say 'tap with the whip' it is just a tap not a repremand, and use your voice or click to encourage her to lift her legs.

Hope that makes sense...

 

[aimeerose]

difficult one....

my instructor said i caused it in my old cob cos i was rushing her rather than creating impulsion

i found that i had to ignore it till she was really responsive off my leg then tackle the rushing by softening her and working her rounder.

think longer not faster..

sorry not much help!

 

[henryhorn]

I think what's happening is Patches is trying to oblige and carry her weight more behind but is getting her feet mixed up!
She does look a little rushed so slow down and think rhythm rather than speed.
If you can lunge her in side reins or better still a pessoa, once she builds up enough muscle to carry herself correctly the forging will disappear. (bear in mind she's a big horse to carry herself so it will take a while for this to happen)
I can see a huge improvement so don't despair..

 

[parsley]

I'm sorry - I don't know the answer but I just wanted to say "What a lovely picture"

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what's happening is Patches is trying to oblige and carry her weight more behind but is getting her feet mixed up!
She does look a little rushed so slow down and think rhythm rather than speed.
If you can lunge her in side reins or better still a pessoa, once she builds up enough muscle to carry herself correctly the forging will disappear. (bear in mind she's a big horse to carry herself so it will take a while for this to happen)
I can see a huge improvement so don't despair..

[/ QUOTE ]

I should've said, she probably was rushing in this picture as, from where we are in the field, it looks like we're on the approach to the fence and Patches does just love to jump!

I do feel there is improvement in her, as she doesn't feel so heavy in front, even though her nose is poked in the air. Before, she used to feel like she was pulling the reins out of my hands, which has stopped now.

I would also say, that there is some improvement, albeit slight, in my position. My feet will always be an issue and I think my instructor despairs of my toes already. However, I don't think I've got my lower leg as far back or heels as drawn up as they always used to be. Sitting in this slightly better position, how would you view my stirrup length? I'm often told I ride too short (as they do when you see a picture of me with my heels pulled up and back) but I don't think they look too short in this picture and some would possibly say they are too long for jumping (compared to how I see some people ride).

We do loads and loads of transitions in a schooling session. So much so that I can get a forwards transition after a while just by a click of my tongue as she associates that with a nudge of the legs. For now, as it's still that work in progress, I've been told not to slow her down when she's rushing. The aim being to not restrict her forward movement. For example, if I wanted her to walk on and she jogs or trots I'm not to pull back on the reins but instead "think" walk so she doesn't get mixed signals (legs say go...but what's this...the hands are saying whoa now if you).

She's quite a tricky horse, even though she's safe as houses. She has her own opinions when it comes to schooling. Generally that the least effort she has to put in the better. Jumping, hacking and pleasure rides are far more fun in her eyes.

The other main problem I have with her is this habit to look to the outside of the school, whatever rein we're on. My instructor will say to use more inside leg and hand but if I close the inside hand on the reins, even slightly, she turns to the left. I figure that must mean I'm abandoning her somehow with my outside aids. Don't suppose it helps that I ride in an area of the field that is fenced off with electric tape! The fencer isn't on, but I guess she's always going to be wary.

It will all come eventually.

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest with the heavier types, like Patches, pushing them forward too much isn't really the answer, because as you say she just gets heavy on your hands. I would be inclined to slow the trot down a bit and tap her up with your whip on her bottom and half halt at the same time to get her to pick her back feet up higher rather than flat and forward, this will lighten her front end and help you get a rounder out line. Also lots of leg yeilding, again tapping her with the whip to encourage her to cross her hind leg over and become more active.

Activity isn't always a forward action, it's up more from behind which will encourage her to take more weight behind therefore lightening her front end.

When I say 'tap with the whip' it is just a tap not a repremand, and use your voice or click to encourage her to lift her legs.

Hope that makes sense...

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes perfect sense thanks. I will try it.

It doesn't show on the picture, and I'm not sure how aware of Patches history you are, but she drags her hind feet at the trot at almost every stride. I say drag, it's more a jerk and tap of the foot during the stride. She also has been diagnosed with the start of spavin in her hocks. Whilst she is 100% sound at the moment, her hind end action is never going to be perfect.

Will certainly try your tips. I've been spending time just rewarding her for putting some effort into going forwards instead of having a lolloping and heavy trot. She is very upright in front and does have a typically choppy cob stride.

 

[Patches]

Aww thanks L.

I don't dislike the picture, but I worry that her forging will become over reaching and she'll hurt herself. I don't like riding her in over reach boots though, especially when I was jumping, as she stood on one once and tripped herself up. Dozy Patches!

 

[buckybee]

Hi Patches,

I think she looks fab! From post I've seen from you before i think you are both doing great, and don't worry too much about little probs. you say this was taken when jumping - personally, I think, when jumping you should focus on jumping, which is more about rythem and balance (i wish!) and will eventually only be in canter. Sorry to see your fall BTW! I loved your smile though! You must bounce well on this hard ground!

 

[Andelusional]

What a sweet coblet! I spend a lot of time dealing with this as I have been training dressage for nearly 30 years. I see this all the time, and the resolution is always to slow the rhythm and lengthen the step by using your rise in the trot. Rise higher and more forward each step but slower and yes they do get heavier at first. A short time in a pelham bit helps through this stage until the beastie is a bit more balanced and not using you as a fifth leg. I prefer to have the horse round first and forward last, as the training scale supports this as the logical progression. It is definitly not your fault but a product of lack of balance and roundness. You will find the hind leg will improve if you can get a longer rounder neck allowing the horse more use of her elbows and therefore more 'room' for the hind leg to come through. Once that is established they cease to forge.

 

[buckybee]

Has she ever over reached though Patches? Horses may be daft but I don't think she would keep standing on herself for the sake of it, especially with that happy little expresion she has!

 

[viola]

Hi,
There's some good advise on forging already so I thought I will just add to your inside rein question. I would say you are right in a way that Patches shows by her reactions that she doesn't really know the proper response to the rein. She seems more of a 'pull right, turn right' sort of horse. You would need to chat to your instructor and first understand the theory behind the outside and inside aids very well and then work on first 'explaining' to Patches that this rein business is a bit different to what she was taught

If at all possible you could try to have a lesson on a dressage schoolmaster to get a feeling for what you will be asking.

As to your lower leg position - have you tried riding bareback? I swear for it, improves your legs no end!

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,
There's some good advise on forging already so I thought I will just add to your inside rein question. I would say you are right in a way that Patches shows by her reactions that she doesn't really know the proper response to the rein. She seems more of a 'pull right, turn right' sort of horse. You would need to chat to your instructor and first understand the theory behind the outside and inside aids very well and then work on first 'explaining' to Patches that this rein business is a bit different to what she was taught

If at all possible you could try to have a lesson on a dressage schoolmaster to get a feeling for what you will be asking.

As to your lower leg position - have you tried riding bareback? I swear for it, improves your legs no end!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. The instructor did notice it in my lesson but has a sort of checklist at the moment...this first, then that, followed the other to work through. First on the list is her responsiveness. I used to feel the need to nag with my leg because if I took it off, even for a stride, she'd stop! Of course, I know this was wrong, but it was a habit I'd fallen into. So for now, we're working on me only using the legs to ask for a pace and her keeping that pace, largely, until I ask for a change. It's a slow and steady progress but we are getting there. The difference in her is amazing.

It's been transferred to our hacking as well. She used to lollop along when hacking and I used to feel I could get off and walk quicker. Now she zips along happy as larry. It's amazing the difference we're making.

My instructor has been away for a fortnight on a cruise, so I'm hopeful that she will see a difference when I have another lesson next week.

The checklist is for my benefit, not Patches. Think my instructor is worried that if she gives me too much to work on all at once, that I'll suffer an information over load.

 

[Patches]

No she never has and I hope you're right in that she's not a dafty. To be honest, the longer I've had her the less I worry about it. I used to hear her shoes clicking and wonder if she was stepping on the back of them. Pictures like this, help me understand that she is infact forging and not over reaching.

 

[chestnut cob]

You need to keep a contact on the outside rein if you play on the inside to stop her turning - have just been working on solving this one with R because he likes to fall in on circles, esp small ones. Some due to him being a little toad, and some due to me not keeping a contact properly on the outside rein.

Don't panic too much Clare, it will all come in time. You're getting lessons froma a good instructor now so just take it a bit at a time, you can't solve everything in one go.

One thing I would say is that she needs to go on your leg aid, NOT the tongue click - you can't click in a test or you'll get marked down (I have been!!). If she doesn't respond to the leg aid, click with your tongue and give her a little tap behind the leg to warn her. I got yelled at in my last lesson for "going round sounding like a clucking hen, either smack him or don't, but stop bl00dy clicking"!!!

 

[PapaFrita]

Not much help but PF forges like mad but only in walk... I can hear 'clack clack clack' all the time. She's never taken a shoe off, or over reached, so i don't give it any thought any more though I get some funny looks

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to keep a contact on the outside rein if you play on the inside to stop her turning - have just been working on solving this one with R because he likes to fall in on circles, esp small ones. Some due to him being a little toad, and some due to me not keeping a contact properly on the outside rein.

Don't panic too much Clare, it will all come in time. You're getting lessons froma a good instructor now so just take it a bit at a time, you can't solve everything in one go.

One thing I would say is that she needs to go on your leg aid, NOT the tongue click - you can't click in a test or you'll get marked down (I have been!!). If she doesn't respond to the leg aid, click with your tongue and give her a little tap behind the leg to warn her. I got yelled at in my last lesson for "going round sounding like a clucking hen, either smack him or don't, but stop bl00dy clicking"!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that could be a main problem I have too. My instructor thinks I wasn't told to use the inside leg correctly around corners, so when she starts to fall in, I hang on the outside rein to try and pull her back to the track. I've stopped doing that now, but applying inside leg and tweaking inside hand does make her fall in even more. I guess, I've been so busy trying to not pull on the outside rein that I've lost the contact with it to some degree and her going around looking to the outside is a habit. She probably thinks that's what I want her to do!

pmsl @ the thought of you sounding like a clucking hen in your lessons! I don't think I'm quite up there to rival you but I will try and tone down the clucking. I've quite possibly progressed from clucking with the schooling whip after first using the leg, to just clucking. Poor Patches. I've gone from one extreme to another.