What do people really dislike so much about Parelli?

siennamum said:
Parelli in particular, and to varying degrees other NH schools, encourage an air of superiority amongst practitioners.
People who adopt this stuff invariably seem to have problems because of their own lack of experience or ability, but it's easier to blame the existing system (as if there is ever one way of doing things). It generates an us and them mentality which is ridiculous and usually based on ignorance. That gets people's backs up and that's what people dislike IMO.

(that and the whole hitting the horse round the head with a metal clip for it's own good - obviously)
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NAIL ON HEAD!!!
 
Orangehorse said:
I totally agree with Kerilli. But, but, but I know several people - who do ride their horses - who have taken previously rude, difficult horses and transformed them into excellent, reliable,enjoyable horses that neigh and gallop over when the owner goes to catch them.
I went to a ranch in the USA where they break and train their horses by Parelli methods and all the horses were charming and well schooled and very easy.

I do agree about some of the "never ride the horses" bit, unfortunately, but these are people who like horses for what they are, not necessarily what they do and are happy to just spend time and play and not want to go to competitions all the time (unlike US!).

Personally, I think that the Natural Horsemanship thing has opened my eyes and made me look at things from the horse's point of view far more than before.
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I think the spread of NH has made lots of people start to think about the world from the horse's perspective - which is great. I was taught to think like this by my mum, who was taught how to apprach and handle horses by her father who handled shire horses.

What bugs me is that the approach simply wasn't invented by most NH practitioners, partly because lots of mainstream people have been managing horses in a natural and intuitive way forever, and partly because there are animal behaviourists who developed the formal science behind much of this (such as Lucy Rees) who NH practitioners have simply stolen their ideas from IMO.

As you say though, perhaps the good thing is that this stuff now has a higher profile.
 
I admire him actually ....... for his ability to come up with a hugely commercialised (and presumably profitable - for him) way of putting himself on an alter for his followers to worship and making it clear to them that there is indeed only one path to Rome ;)

(oops, my bad, was that mean??)

Seriously, though, there are a lot of good horsemen/ women out there, who many would class as "NH" but who don't commercialise what they do in the way he does - but in fact who are better at their horsemanship/ have trained horses to a higher degree. As I understand it from some friends who were into Parelli but have since moved away, in fact he wasn't the one that trained the horse "magic".

It's a big pet hate of mine actually that Parelli seems to have managed to make so many people think that NH "is" Parelli - its not at all (and in fact as many have said on here, it's not even really a new thing - in fact it's a very old thing, its just different in many ways to the good old BHS and it seems many people feel the need to categorise things into either BHS or NH......)
 
Here is some Japanese NH

http://youtu.be/wMcWbChqmLs

He is quite amusing, there are 2 ways to get you horse thru water, first is by opening a big can of woop ass.

And you pay the bills and its not too much to expect your horse to walk thru a puddle

A round pen is only going help you with a water jump if it has rained a lot and flooded.
 
I totally agree with kerrili (sp). I am open minded about most of it, but do have problems with the commercial aspect of NH. The main problem I have encountered over the years is the loss of 'stockmanship' with horses both in the leisure and professional side of horses. A lot of what I do can be considered to be 'NH' but I have never subscribed whole heartedly to one method or another, just used what works for me. I wish I could upload the video of Monty Roberts working with my horse at ILPH a few years ago. At first you watch it and go oh wow, but I have watched it a lot of times with the sound off and you see a whole different side. Anyone who lives close enough to Newmarket is welcome to come and see it (I won't lend it out anymore as I lost it for around 6 months and I had to pay, yes pay, for the copy which I was promised for free). What alerted me was when Kelly Marks was looking very stressed and saying to the coordinator, 'he's not meant to be doing this'.
I do sigh when people tell me they are only using 'Parelli' methods as like others have said they tend to never sit on their poor horse and it usually is quite rude and bolshy but that's ok because he's right brained whatever. Scientology is a good comparision to the 'cult' like aspect of Parelli.
 
It's so commercial, their show in Birmingham was over £100 a ticket.... Carrot sticks, ropes and halters are £££ for what they are. DVD series are a lot of money. Give them their due they can ride..... But agree its a lot of people who play with their horses than ride them
 
back in the day there were 'horse copers' generally oldish men who sucked their teeth & had an arsenal of tricks they used to sort out difficult horses, sadly they die off & less & less people spend the amount of time around horses to develop the feel of what the horse is doing & why its doing it. it takes time with horses to develop & exposure to many many horses of many different types to learn which ones are scared, which ones are naughty & which ones just are a bit speshal ;)

IMO these kind of people are a rare & dying breed, quick fixes galore encourage people to try & put a sticking plaster over a problem, when actually better advice about buying a horse, regular lessons & support would result in alot less problems, atm i see these problems increasing, its so easy for a novice to get into a horse owning pickle....

if we could bottle good old fashioned horse sense & wrap it in a nice old hessian sack we'd be onto a retro 'ossman's winner!! ;) ;) i'm half serious, slowly slowly catchy monkey tends to get you there much faster than alot of things!!

My opinion on branded NH is low, because horsemanship done properly, it's nothing new at all.... but robbing naive novice horseowners who are in above their ability, is really wrong. & anyone who in a public 'demonstration' does not realise when they have reached the limit of a horse should be struck off!

i am off to bottle my vintage slowly slowly theory

the best horse copers of old where/are totally unsung, with results speaking for themselves, they don't need a fancy tag!
 
Yes, the old Nagsman - sent your young horse to be backed and broken. Maybe not NH or even PC, but the horse came back well mannered and able to go out on a hack without napping. Unfortunately, they ARE a dying breed.
 
I totally see why people don't like Parelli, it is very commercial and to be honest unless you REALLY understand it then it just looks a bit lame.

I think once in a while you come across a horse that needs you to take a step back and reconsider what you think you know about horses. I have this situation with a beautiful young horse who had been broken but done little else, he could appear quite calm and relaxed and then explode for no apparent reason, while very accepting of some people, others could get no where near him. twice I heard 'he'll kill you' from people who ran 2 yards I was on (he'd taken a dislike to both) - after a nasty accident i decided that I really needed to find 'a way', I was told the usual. 'show him whose boss' and 'break his spirit' but to me he was a very sweet boy who needed to have his confidence built up - Enter Parelli - First i will say that you MUST get an instructor, I have the DVD's and watched everything available online but would be lost without the guidence of an instructor. Everyone quickly noticed a change in my horse but it all looked a bit odd to them and they didn't 'get' what I was doing - pootling about with my horse at the end of a rope. Even if you've watched some parelli bits and bobs I don't think you can possibly understand the subtle nature of what's happening until you're truly involved. It takes a long time to get to the riding stage but once you're there you'll have a bond and understanding between you that will be well worth the time you spent out of the saddle. I'm hopefully about a month off riding him, but he is such a happier horse and we have a trust and understanding between us that we wouldn't have had without this programme. I hope to have this horse for the rest of his life and am more than happy to make the investment in both time and money. As for an excuse not to ride, I ride other horses quite happily, it's not big or clever to ride a horse that you know in your heart is not safe - many do because they have no idea how to fix the horse, for them riding is not fun.
 
LEC said:
It is nothing different to what a good horseman already does but it's wrapped up in fancy packaging and sold as an ethos when actually with horses there are many roads to Rome.

I do notice that the most extreme Parelli devotees never seem to actually ride their horse. So I am kind of convinced its for people to scared to ride.
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Yep, my thinking too!
 
LEC said:
It is nothing different to what a good horseman already does but it's wrapped up in fancy packaging and sold as an ethos when actually with horses there are many roads to Rome.

I do notice that the most extreme Parelli devotees never seem to actually ride their horse. So I am kind of convinced its for people to scared to ride.
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I'd agree with the first paragraph.

The second paragraph highlights some ignorance.
 
What did it for me was I saw a snippet on horse and country a while ago and one of them (I'm sure it was Kelly, but don't quote me) was saying how when she goes to competitions she can hear the horses screaming for help.

Ummm.... try telling my retired eventer that, he lived for XC! All respect lost in a nanosecond! Parrelli or common sense... I'll stick with common sense, it's served me well so far :D although I am without a cucumber stick and a confused horse, which I'm too scared to ride :D BUMMER!
 
Dukey said:
What did it for me was I saw a snippet on horse and country a while ago and one of them (I'm sure it was Kelly, but don't quote me) was saying how when she goes to competitions she can hear the horses screaming for help.

Ummm.... try telling my retired eventer that, he lived for XC! All respect lost in a nanosecond! Parrelli or common sense... I'll stick with common sense, it's served me well so far :D although I am without a cucumber stick and a confused horse, which I'm too scared to ride :D BUMMER!
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People can go over the top a bit, but the Monty Roberts stuff isn't really very good. In honesty I don't think common sense plays much part in the conventional horse keeping world. A fairly good rule of thumb is anything conventional, do the opposite.:D
 
Pale Rider said:
People can go over the top a bit, but the Monty Roberts stuff isn't really very good. In honesty I don't think common sense plays much part in the conventional horse keeping world. A fairly good rule of thumb is anything conventional, do the opposite.:D
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Well I'm not claiming to be the world's greatest horsewoman or know everything there is to know about horses or NH. In my horsey bubble common sense or maybe I should call it horsey sense has worked well for me never needed parrelli, always done what I have thought best and failing that I've sought professional advice. I have produced both of my current horses both have a home with me for life and both could turn their hoof to most things. We have had our difficulties but worked through them and come out the other side. I'll continue this way as it works for me, NH may work for others but I'm not getting drawn in :)
 
Dukey, I'm a firm believer in whatever works for you, go with it.

NH suffers from a lot of folk looking for a panacea, it just isn't. To get results, you need to put the hours in, just like anything else.

There are some pretty awful people in NH, just like in conventional horsemanship.

The trick is wheat and chaff, just like everything else.
 
Parelli and natural horsemanship are two different things with very different approaches, I haven't done parelli but know of people who do- some are very good and have great horses but others not so good but that's the same in every discipline.

My instructor does natural horsemanship and is amazing, his horse is so tuned in with him and he can ride tackless with the horse in a correct outline etc and all sorts but he also incorporates dressage into his riding so I find he's a great instructor and my horse is going better than ever so it works for me.

But there are people who look into these techniques hoping for a quick fix but that just doesn't happen with horses ;)
 
Parelli seems to get such a bad press on forums. I think it's because the majority of people are very happy with their horses and feel a sense of pride in their equine knowledge. Parelli is quite a big step away from the conventional horsemanship most of us have been brought up with and so it can be easier to dismiss or belittle than to accept that perhaps there is another way and perhaps it's a better way. That would undermine those who take pride in their already hard earned horsemanship skills.

Of course there are many ways to manage horses, we've all been getting on perfectly well without parelli for years but don't dismiss it, we should all be open minded to constantly improving the knowledge we have.

I see many people chasing their horses around the round pen, doing join up. It's quite a straight forward way to connect with your horse, easy to understand and easy to do, so no one questions this. Parelli however is a different kettle of fish, there is no quick fix, you have yo learn it, understand it and practice it a lot. it works in a sequence and so is difficult to get right - it is therefore easier to belittle it than to get involved, as getting involved takes commitment.

If you see a commited parelli rider with their horse you'll SEE the difference it makes, they have the connection that most would love but don't know where to start.

If you're happy with your horse then that's great but for those having difficulties on the ground or in the saddle they could benefit greatly from the parelli programme.
 
I think, if you are only exposed to a small sample, it's easy to mistake bad practice for representation. If I based my opinions of dressage on the basis of random local observation I don't think I would necessarily get an accurate view!

Horse people are notoriously 'high school' in sticking with their own kind and what they know, which makes it hard to have a dialogue without it descending into people being wholly defined by a very narrow set of briefs.

I will say, too, many representatives of non-mainstream practices do themselves no favours! Taking an alternative view often makes people defensive - they define themselves by their very separation from what everyone else is doing and believe fervently it's the 'only right way'. This can make it hard to see where their teaching fits into what other, less extreme people want to do with their horses, and also makes it very hard to discuss where it's NOT a good fit.
 
TarrSteps said:
I think, if you are only exposed to a small sample, it's easy to mistake bad practice for representation. If I based my opinions of dressage on the basis of random local observation I don't think I would necessarily get an accurate view!

Horse people are notoriously 'high school' in sticking with their own kind and what they know, which makes it hard to have a dialogue without it descending into people being wholly defined by a very narrow set of briefs.

I will say, too, many representatives of non-mainstream practices do themselves no favours! Taking an alternative view often makes people defensive - they define themselves by their very separation from what everyone else is doing and believe fervently it's the 'only right way'. This can make it hard to see where their teaching fits into what other, less extreme people want to do with their horses, and also makes it very hard to discuss where it's NOT a good fit.
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I totally agree with what you've said - really well put. Whatever side of the fence you're on you should respect other people's approach even if it's not for you. often people who discover an 'alternate' approach become a bit evangelic about it which puts others off. However, when you see what something like Parelli can do it is like a 'big light switching on' and it's difficult not to want to tell everyone about it. Restraint in this is essential as no one likes to be preached to - hopefully the horses will eventually speak for themselves.
 
I've not read the whole post but here's my two pennies worth!
Many of the basic priniciples are sound however I hate the marketing, the language (horseanality makes me want to punch someone in the face!) and the cult type attitude around it. Different approaches work with different horses, good horsemen and women have a tool box of ideas and use the one that best suits the horse in question.
The main issue as far as I can see is that it attracts people who are already struggling mainly because they are incomptent and then gives the impression that they can fix their problems by buying stuff.
People who are perceptive and open to learning will be succesful what ever training route they adopt. People who lack basic skills and are unable to recognise what is happening in front of them will make a mess of their horses what ever training route they adopt.
 
The marketing and language can be annoying, i wouldn't want to go to a Parelli event and listen to all Pat's cliches but Linda has a much better approach and I have to say that the dvd's are really well put together and much more down to earth than the hype would lead you to expect.

If you lack experience with horses no 'course' is going to fill in that gap. However there are horses out there that don't respond well to conventional training and are destined to be field ornaments or worse. There are also riders who have lost confidence despite having ridden for years, if Parelli just helps in these cases alone it will be doing a good job and be worthy of a bit more respect.

DVDs alone are not enough, anyone embarking on this path should find themselves a good trainer, i think that the idea that you can learn such a complex system out of a box is wrong and potentially harmful.
 
Think where parelli started, and you will get an idea of how he talks
Barns in america, where people who had no clue brought horses. They were often truely broken in spirit, not for the horsemen, but for the one or two horse owners.
The ones that came with the thought that a horse is a dumb stupid animal and should just do what I say, and with the sensativity of a brick. Or oh my poor precious pet people.

Its designed to help people read their horses, but more than that change themselves.

A friend started playing with parelli when it first came into this country. I dabble. I go on the theory the more tools that I have, the more chance of solving something. She is a lot more intense, and has taken on a horse that was dangerous, because he couldnt bear preassure and paniced, and all the traditional "got to show him who was boss" made him lethal.
He is now back with his owner being regually ridden.....an unridable horse. BUT she didnt use pure parelli, added in clicker training. It took a year to get him confident enough.

I used it with a youngster that just didnt get traditional. She is a super mare.
And I ride, not as much as I used to, but I do.

So yes, some people will go "oh poor horse" but when I used to teach I will tell a story. I was asked, if I love a horse, how can I use a whip on it? Simple, I told them. If using a whip means that it listens to me so that I can ride it lightly and get response, It means that I am a lot less likely to end up under a lorry. That rudeness on the road, its a bit late to be starting to be respected. Its the same. respect on the ground is safer starting point than respect on their back. And if the people doing need to find that first, and it takes a year or two, then so be it.
 
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