What do people think of Monty Roberts?

I always enjoy watching Monty on the horse and country channel. I'm meeting with Suzanne Marshall (IH) in a few months to pick her brains about my long yearling and working towards my goal of starting her myself when she's ready. Very much enjoy Kelly and Richard Maxwell's books, always good solid advice.

I've never done join up in a round pen (I assume round pen needed), but I guess I have done a form of it, when my filly was being disrespectful loose in her paddock when I was around her I would drive her away until she came mooching back wanting to be friends, worked a charm and could pretty much do anything with her loose in her field after that.

I wish I had a round pen! Wonder why arenas have corners when they are naturally 'spooky' to horses visuals, I tend to put cones in each corner to try and soften the corners a bit.
 
I use join up for the odd horse. Usually once, rarely do I do it twice. Never found a horse that doesn't respond to it. I first did it about 40 years ago long before the world had heard of Monty Roberts. I have no problem with much of Monty's teachings, he's a fairly common sense guy who works using very old and tried methods hence he gets good results. What he has done is open this knowledge up to newer, less experienced horse owners. The only thing I'd criticize is the inexperienced followers doing join-up over and over again ... I'm not sure they're really getting what it's all about.
 
I'm not trying to think of clever put downs to join up. I'm just genuinely interested in the thoughts behind the anomalies. I remember reading montys first book, in which there was a stallion that he didn't try join up with. I'm genuinely interested in what the join up approach or alternative would be for one of mine. For good reason she was fear aggressive, & I'm 100% confident that even now she'd never submit to join up, even laying her down wouldn't do anything except make her worse. She doesn't display the normal response to higher ranking horses sending her away, so a human would stand no chance. However, she's no danger to handle, & these days is a cracking kids pony, I trust her with my child, which speaks volumes. But, at one point she was dangerous, we found a way past that, but I would love to know what way a nh/ih associate would have solved it. In all honesty I would get someone out & see what alternative they came up with, but I don't want her to remember that humans can & should be attacked. Also, when I say no flight instinct, she was 5 late summer & had her first ever spook in jan, her previous reaction to anything she was unsure of was prepare/threaten to attack, & if needs be attack & chase it off.
 
Ok I'll pack the join up in for a bit then, my boy has been responding well, although the lunging with two lines left a lot to be desired (to which my sore finger pays testimony)!! But yes definitely the patience and repetition in dodgy areas works wonders :D
 
I consider myself quite a hard person, nothing much bothers me or twangs my heart strings.

But a friends pony was used in a demo some years a go now, and although what they did with my friends pony wasn't that bad (except lying to the public that it hadn't been worked intensely before hand ;) ) The work he did on one other was horrendous, gutwrenching and just hidious.

One word:

Buckstop.
 
hello - Kelly thanks for responding re lunging but you missed my point. if you have done join up with a horse ("i am driving you away until you act submissive then you can be around me") then surely it is wrong to lunge it ("i am driving you away for exercise and i am going to ignore your submissive behaviour because that's not my priority now"). having one rein or two makes no difference, horses who have done join up (and many that haven't) still lick and chew - etc. how can this be right?

i realise join up is only one part of ih, i just picked up on this particular anomaly in the system because of one other reader mentioning the problem.
 
Morgan123 said:
hello - Kelly thanks for responding re lunging but you missed my point. if you have done join up with a horse ("i am driving you away until you act submissive then you can be around me") then surely it is wrong to lunge it ("i am driving you away for exercise and i am going to ignore your submissive behaviour because that's not my priority now"). having one rein or two makes no difference, horses who have done join up (and many that haven't) still lick and chew - etc. how can this be right?

i realise join up is only one part of ih, i just picked up on this particular anomaly in the system because of one other reader mentioning the problem.
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I can only give anecdotal evidence as it relates to one horse, but in any case, my horse has done the join up and she also lunges and long-reins like a star (the latter dependent on how tangled up I'm busy getting at the other end of the long lines. Need to practice that more). The horse, when loose, will automatically join up, even without the driving away part, but if she's on a line, she goes around steadily in whatever gait you request. It seems to me that the horse knows the difference between working loose in an arena or round pen and working on the line. We expect our horses to understand the difference between cues for canter, cues for haunches in, and cues for half-pass, or between halt, rein-back, piaffe, and passage (well, in this case, I don't, but Carl Hester does). If horses can be trained to differentiate between these very subtle aids, surely they can be trained to differentiate between having a line and not having a line and the different body language a trainer might use.
 
Caol Ila said:
If horses can be trained to differentiate between these very subtle aids, surely they can be trained to differentiate between having a line and not having a line and the different body language a trainer might use.
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This ^^ they do understand different body language which is why they will loose school or lunge in a different manner to how they are when we ask them to join-up. An inexperienced handler may not see/feel/believe there is any difference in their body language but there is and the horse can 'see' it.
 
The buckstop doesn't sit comfortably (pardon the pun) with me either i'm afraid - as i understand it, surely you'd be as well just giving your horse a good sock in the teeth?:confused:

Anyway, back to the original question. I've seen Monty work at least 4 times (in fact i ended up with a little bucker/bolter horse he used in one of his demos some years ago - i was sat in the audience thinking "What a nice little horse! I could work with him!". Ended up the owner found out i'd said that, got in touch & home he came!). I've also read all Monty's books & thoroughly enjoyed them. Inspirational & compelling story.

My observations about his work, would be thus (& this is construtive critism from an observer's point of view - of course i can in no way tell someone as experienced how to work) - although i "get" how natural it is, join up replicating the way a mare would send a disobedient foal away etc, do like his methods in the main, & have used join up on many horses, i feel it's becoming a bit too commercialised & was disappointed in the more recent demos how often the dually halter was plugged (i own two BTW & find them a very useful but non-essential piece of kit). I don't think any audience/owners should feel they can't get results without purchasing a certain tool - as has been said, so much of the training method is simply down to attitude - it shouldn't have to be about having a certain halter. I have also seen the dually used (IMHO) a little too harshly, with what appear to be quite rough & abrupt jerks - i know that's not necessary as i have had good results using a dually in a rather more subtle way. I have also felt that sometimes the horses seemed to have to work to a tight timescale & were moved on within this timescale even when you could see they could benefit from a bit longer. As has been said, every horse is different & things take different lengths of time to accomplish. I do of course i do appreciate demos do work to a schedule, however i do think that in some cases had an audience or Monty & his crew been held back for an extra half an hour so the horse could understand a bit better, it would have be worth it. My last point would be that i would like to see a bit more progression in his methods, after all i'm sure he is learning all the time from all these horses & nobody can ever know all there is to know, but i haven't seen an awful lot that is new (apart from using gates to load - which i think is unrealistic as very few owners have either these gates or helpers available to hold them). The best trainers (i think) are always striving to learn & i think i'd only be willing to go & see him again if he could promise something new & less of the dually promotion!
 
Spring Feather said:
This ^^ they do understand different body language which is why they will loose school or lunge in a different manner to how they are when we ask them to join-up. An inexperienced handler may not see/feel/believe there is any difference in their body language but there is and the horse can 'see' it.
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^^ Absolutely - & to the tack it is wearing also - put a stallion's covering bridle on & he'll probably react rather differently than he will if you put his riding bridle on!
 
In a nutshell I think that Monty Roberts has gone far beyond what he set out to achieve all those years ago and should be proud that because of his determination and unquestionable knowledge many thousands of horses live a life of kindness and understanding around the globe. How may of us can claim that ?
In order to reach countries where brutality is common place it has to be that acceptance on a grand scale regarding what we can achieve through understanding would have to initiate in countries such as the UK. If his methods are adopted in countries in South America or even the rodeo circuit from which he came who would honestly condemn him?
There is always more than one correct way to address any problem or learning platform and that is where we can make the decisions that are right for our horses. I take inspiration from Monty Roberts, Mark Rashid, Nuno Oliviera etc etc, all are very different so I can take and leave what suits me.

This time last year my 3yo (now 4) was used in a Monty Roberts demo as the 'Start Up' horse. I put him forward for several reasons - 1/ He had never been backed. 2/ Because I never back away from allowing him as much experience as possible. 3/ Although I have every confidence in myself, an opportunity to watch someone such as Monty work with my horse would be a once in a lifetime chance. At that point I never actually thought that he would be selected. After assessing him and the other potential horses the decision was made to use my boy, probably as he appeared to be more feisty and slightly more demonic ! Personally I think that was just him being a typical Welsh Section D !
I spoke throughout the day to Monty, Kelly and Linda from the IH, all of whom were down to earth, professional and always had the horses well being as paramount importance. He was assessed fully by a horse physio both before and after the demo.
Now if he had becomed stressed or harmed by this then I would have had to live with that on my conscience, however he remained cool as always and happy to return back to his haynet. The demo itself was 'textbook', just perfect.
Monty, I found to be direct, no nonsense, tells it as it is (plus he really, really liked my boy :))
The fundamental key element is body language and tone of your voice which to me is the basis of what Monty is trying to get across. Its simple and it works.
Join-up works, its a good tool to use if necessary to get a horse to listen to you. Ive used join-up and may well again if the need occurs but I think that a form of join-up is used far more than we realise anyway, even in the stable. Often I've sent a horse to the back of the stable if they forget their manners and only allow them back to me when they've regained them, without threatening, shouting or smacking.
At the end of the day if its good enough for Her Majesty.........;)
 
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