What DO the Kennel Club think they are doing

Imho the KCs action isn't going to make a jot of different to the type of dog bred. What they do need to do is demand decent hip scores before any animal is bred from, and working ability tests before any dog can win top show awards. But breeders who favour the german lines have been asking for this for years and the KC just aren't interested.
Out of itnerest AM, which of these types do you prefer

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/120899.html

or
http://www.taeberdaelalsatians.com/hollyfullsize.html
 
Ah, here comes the 'deformities' word again.

Do you think this dog is deformed, AM?
Because he came jogging with me for two hours yesterday and likes to pop 1m hurdles and a 7ft a-frame for fun.
One of his relatives mentioned before will be competing at the Siegershow and has the CORRECT slope from the back to the croup, as mentioned, she is walked up a mountain twice weekly and swims 1800m a week.
Do you really think she would be able to cope with that, if she was deformed?

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Oh and a couple to show how any dog can be given a sloping backline, or a 'tabletop'.
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(stood downhill)

[img]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk34/VonStephanitz/Bodo140.jpg

This dog is unshown and will stay that way.
 
I know nothing about gsd's and find this discussion very interesting. Personally I remember watching the GSD that one BOB in crufts a while ago I believe he was German bred and thinking that he looked hideously deformed both stood and moving, there were other dogs there that imo were far more fit for purpose than him and couldnt for the life of me understand why he was chosen as the best example of the breed.
I don't think your dog looks deformed hh.
MM i prefer the first dog from those two links, but dont think either look great personally. As I said though I claim full naivety as I know nothing about the breed or its history (apart from what u guys have just posted!)
Can anyone further explain this double handling business to me please?!
 
Temsik, I agree with you that the dog that won at Crufts appeared to be very over angulated both standing and moving. There was a lot of discussion at the time pointing out that this dog had never been shown in the uk way before, in Germany they gait on football pitches and are far more relaxed. To win as he has in Germany he has to have full working qualifications and good hips, I think the following link shows he is certainly not a cripple . Scroll down to the bottom of the page.
http://www.videxgsd.com/THE_LEGEND_ZAMP.htm

Oh and the first pic in the previous link is of an all german bred dog, the second is all english. They are old photos and both dogs are now dead (first one is in my lines) just wanted to show that evryone blames the ski slope backs etc on german dogs and it is not always the case .
 
I don't know a great deal about Zamp, but I have seen that article before and the pictures of him leaping about do not depict a cripple.
There is no way a deformed or crippled dog could have been made Sieger - this means, over several days, he excelled in a number of disciplines including gaiting on and off lead, heelwork, the highest level of protection work and he had to present a quality progeny group to show his worth as a producer.

Thanks Temsik.
Double handling, in it's most basic sense, and which I have been guilty of in the past and will do so again, is hiding behind a person, a hedge, a tree, whatever, basically making the dog in the ring look for me.
Very occasionally I would call the dogs name or click my tongue, particularly at the final line-up where the judge will be making his or her mind up or at the height of the gaiting.

At the Sieger, where the competition is fierce and the classes are held in large stadia, and use air horns, squeaky toys, whistles etc and now people do that here too.

There is also mad running up and down by owners outside the ring, which is simply wrong, dangerous and denotes a lack of training in the dog, it is just running around, following its' owner who is a few metres in front of it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Imho the KCs action isn't going to make a jot of different to the type of dog bred. What they do need to do is demand decent hip scores before any animal is bred from, and working ability tests before any dog can win top show awards. But breeders who favour the german lines have been asking for this for years and the KC just aren't interested.
Out of itnerest AM, which of these types do you prefer

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/120899.html

or
http://www.taeberdaelalsatians.com/hollyfullsize.html

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you see neither of those dogs please my eye MM (I know you werent asking me BTW
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) as I have always been brought up to believe that a dog should have a good topline which in the breeds I know well means a level topline - like a Belgian Shepherd Dog would have?

It just frustrates me with the Kennel Club that they appear to be incapable of making decisions for the "right" reasons - this whole thing is a knee jerk reaction to that bl**dy TV programme and the sensationalist journalism which followed it (as if it wasnt sensationalist enough itself) If this had been a clear rational decision based on well thought out research then I could understand it and would applaud it, but as you have said the KC have consistently ignored calls for mandatory hip scoring/breeding only from those with good hip scores etc
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Apologies to you and HH that I dont like GSD toplines BTW
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I appreciate you may feel the same way about greyhounds
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I'm neither a GSD owner or shower (GSD is the only breed in Sweden that I know of, where double handling is (/was?) commonly used) but I will have the audacity to try and explain double handling.


Double handling equals one handler showing the dog in the ring and one or more handlers outside the ring, trying to get the dogs attention.

For other breeds, outside handler equals someone outside the ring doing something to, for usually only a brief moment, catch the dogs attention, making it perk up. Hopefully (from the owners point of view) at the same time as the judge happens to look at your dog.

For GSDs, outside handler (ETS usually) equals at least one person that runs outside the ring, behind the other spectators/handlers waiting on their turn, keeping themselves ahead of the dog inside the ring while they are calling their dogs name, squeaking the dogs favourite toy etc, to make the dog constantly be on the toes, paying attention to the surrounding. Some uses several outside handlers, after all, the ones running outside the ring runs a longer distance than the ones inside the ring, so there might be a need to change them occasionally.




The reason why double handling have developed the way it has with the GSDs, as I interpret MurphysMinder and Hacking Hack's replies, is because admirably the people showing GSDs wants to make sure their dogs still have some endurance to trot long distances (= hopefully maintaining the work stamina). That means that as an example, if lets say other breeds maybe runs 2 to 3 laps around the ring, the GSD will maybe run 10 laps or have a ring large as a football field.
It says itself that a normal, not hyperactive dog will at the tenth lap most likely have gone into endurance mood and just trot along the handlers side. If you then have an outside handler, that calls the dogs name/squeaks its favourite toy, the dog will perk up and according to me, sometimes get a periscope-lookalike neck and head, while trying to pin point the outside handler. It also means that the dog might actually/almost be running in front of the real handler inside the ring(, which to me can make it look like the dog has the real handler in tow).




Though I find it admirably that the GSD people want to maintain the work stamina, it is a nuisance and sometimes a danger, for other people at the show ground the way the GSD outside handlers runs around in large packs, blind for everything and everyone but what goes on inside the ring.
Besides, as I mentioned in one of my replies, double handling is not allowed by SKK and people showing all other breeds have to abide to that rule but for many years SKK turned a blind eye towards the double handling around the GSD ring (though with a cacophony of "Here KING!", "Here BAMSE!", Squeak Squeaky SQUUUEEEAAAK, "Here SESSAN!" etc, they would not only need to be blind, without deaf too).



Personally I feel that if GSD people want to run maybe 10 laps around their rings, then do so and accept that most likely only an, (according to me) undesirable hyperactive dog, will look perky and full of attention all the laps. Judge the trot and the endurance and let the handler inside the ring do what they can to make the dog look perky while trotting and once they're standing still again.

Just like f.ex. I have to struggle with my Spitzes, when I often after having run 2 laps in a row, virtually can see their, hm, stubborn little brains think "I have already ran this circle, what do I get out of running it again? Do I feel like running it again?" at the times when the judge want us to run 3 laps in a row. If I'm lucky it doesn't happen until somewhere along the fourth lap.
I can't write what I'm sure they've thought, on the occasions that we've met a judge wanting 5 or 6 laps (it has happened). Let us just say that I got the feeling they obliged out of kindness, believing that I had gone completely mad.
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Not because they don't have the endurance I might add, it's the running in the same circle over and over again that they question the sense with.





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You don't need to apologise to me Splotchy, no one is forcing you to like a breed (although of course I will never forgive you for not thinking GSDs are wonderful
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). I ws really just using those pictures to show the difference in types. As you say the whole point of the debate is that the KC suddenly withholding ticket allocation isn't going to change anything. Just gets them some newspaper headlines.
HH and Finny have summed up double handling pretty well. I would agree that intelligent animals will decide after many laps (lot more than 10 FLH) that they need a bit of incentive to keep going, but imo subtle is best, so the dog isn't quite sure where you are. Running along in front does create highstepping movement but it is down to the judges to sort this out. In an ideal world we should be allowed to do a couple of laps with our dogs off lead to show the true gait, but I have a feeling when this was suggested once the KC did not think it was a good idea
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I believe the KC has vetoed off-lead gaiting at the British Sieger show in the past.
It is allowed in the Working Dog class this year, but no more than one lap.

Agree judges and stewards need to get tougher on the running around on the outside of the ring.
 
Genuine question - why does the GSD need off lead or more gaiting than any other breed to show itself off properly? I am so used to the usual "enter the ring, trot around together, do a single 'show' of a triangle then straight up and down" which most breeds do?
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GSDs were originally intended to 'keep up' sheep, not herd darting in and out like a collie.
They often worked remotely for long periods, loping up and down behind large herds, keeping them together, moving them on and keeping an eye for preditors.
That is the origin of the long, low trot.

It is quite unlike any other dog's movement. There is an immense forward reach, driven from the back like a piston.
To display this properly, the dog needs a lot of room and to display the endurance required, a lot of laps of the ring.
A dog that tires quickly is not desireable.

Because of the way GSDs are gaited, it is really easy to train the dog to pull against the lead and then the handler can 'hold it up'.
This can disguise when a dog falls on the forehand, loses shape over the back or does not display good forward reach.
Gaiting off lead shows the true movement without interference from the handler (at the end of the lead
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) and displays basic obedience, apart from anything else!

Part of the BH basic obedience test (similar to the Companion Dog test in the UK) is heelwork at a jog which is also why it is incorporated in the Working Dog class.
 
But surely some or all of that can apply to other breeds within the working group or pastoral group? (never had the pastoral group in my young days, newfangled ideas
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)

How interesting that you can train a dog just like a horse - so free gaiting performs the same function as 'give and retake the reins' - if the horse/dog falls down you know it is not working/carrying itself properly
 
I don't really know that much about other breeds!

I think it would be sad to dissipate the movement of the GSD, which I think is one of the most beautiful and breathtaking things to watch, to trotting in a little triangle, sorry!

There are a lot of similarities with horsemanship, I see them more and more!
And I can't get my head around pastoral either
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[ QUOTE ]
... It is quite unlike any other dog's movement. There is an immense forward reach, driven from the back like a piston.
To display this properly, the dog needs a lot of room and to display the endurance required, a lot of laps of the ring.
A dog that tires quickly is not desirable.

[/ QUOTE ]



By the way, another thing that I don't like, judges that have one breed as an ideal that they compare all other breeds towards. The ideal GSDs trot is ideal for a GSD and I agree that it is unlike other breeds trot, but why is there some judges that believes the GSD trot is the ideal trot for all dogs, comparing other breeds speed and endurance in trot with GSDs! I've read a comment about that, somebody said something along that the ideal trot for a Pekingese or St. Bernard will never be the same as that of a GSD, because that means they would have to be re-designed to be built and look like a GSD and then they would not be a Pekingese or a St. Bernard any more.

It is like the obedience judges that will only give 10 points to those who manages to make their dog lie or sit down etc. just like a Border Collie would. I've heard about someone with a Pyrenean Mountain Dog who competed in obedience and there was no way it would be able "collapse" into lying down as a Border Collie and it also preferred to sit like puppies do, on one buttock!
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To get back to the topic about breeding abnormalities, the paws of a Finnish Lapphund should be well closed and with a somewhat abundant growth of hair at the underside (compared to most other breeds). Because being well closed means no snow will get in between the pads and the extra hair will help keep the pads warm. For a GSD, Finnish Lapphund paws would not be ideal but for a Finnish Lapphund they are! (Plus I think they're adorably cute if you lift one up and look at it, strands of hair peaking out in different directions
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.)

But let us not forget that the underneath the paws growth of hair means that there is a somewhat increased risk for slipping on some types of manmade surfaces, so theoretically some sitting behind a desk bunny-hugging brownie (as in the mythological elf-like creature), might decide that the extra growth of hair is bad/wrong, because the Finnish Lapphunds (and those other breeds that does have similar paws) might slip and hurt themselves and it is thereby an abnormality that needs to be bred away from...



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Can't improve on what H-H said re the movement. Neither can I answer why other members of the pastoral group (yep I also agree another silly idea from the KC) don't do the same amount of movement. Thinking of other "Shepherd" rather than sheep dogs, I don't know if Belgian Shepherds were bred for the same job or not, I feel a visit to google coming on. In Germany they do still hold the equivalent of sheep dog trials for GSDs.
I was once asked to judge Belgian Shepherds as well as GSDs at a show, I refused as I don't know the breed standard and would have been unfair to do so, I certainly don't think you can compare the movements of different breeds to each other, they each have their breed standards and that is what judges should be using as a blueprint.
I love the sound of the furry paws
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Thanks for answering my questions all of you! I feel informed on the double handling thing but I'm still not truley understanding why GSD's are shown so differently from other breeds
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Good old shroom asked my next question first
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I agree though the exagerated slope on what is classed to be a 'good' GSD is not desirable to me or pleasing to my eye. So my next question(s) is/are and forgive me if someone has answered this already and I've missed it....what is the purpose of the slope to the croup within the breed? Why is it more desirable than a straight back? ie. what is it that makes a 'sloped' dog more fit for purpose than one with a straight back and a leg at each corner?!
Thankies
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I know you two could prattle on about the breed forever!
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You see the other thing to me is...and I have looked at this before and this thread has just prompted me to take another look.... when I read the breed standard for a GSD (cor is it ever long winded too, compared to other breeds!
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) It doesn't describe to me the same dogs that are winining championship shows. The dogs that are winning don't seem to me (in my very limited knowledge) to adhere to this standard set out by their own breed society. I'm confuddled! Surely this means that its Judges at fault for placing dogs that are not adhering to the standard?!
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The belgian shepards standard is actually similar to the GSD but a little less about slope of croup etc. To me I can see how the GSD's standard MAY have started out very similar to todays belgian shepard standard. Out of interest, can anyone post any pictures of winning GSD's of the distant past?
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If you look to mainland Europe or Scandinavia, and Eurasia where either their own country KC's or the FCI award Working Titles in most breeds as well as the traditional "show conformation" titles in general many breeds tend to be closer to their original form and function that you find in the UK. For my own breed I have sadly seen a whole new type emerge from the UK, looking back to the 1960's we had a relatively sound and functional hound that would be perfectly capable of doing the job for which it was bred. Today that is not the case. It has become a pure show dog, and most of the so called "top" UK breeders admit they breed for the show ring not the field. With this selective breeding for the show ring they have accentuated conformational details to extreme and with this a once genetically health breed has emerged and pattern of health issues. Yet even though evidence shows that attributes considered only "cosmetic" can and will have devastating health issues in future generations they continue unabated. The "English" type bears little resemblence to it's ancestors.
For myself I do not hold any UK stock, I imported new lines and breed to as close to the original standard as possible. Because of this I am ostracised by many of the UK breeder-judges so I choose to show abroad. We have both European and World Winners, yet here I am told my dogs are not typical of the breed for the UK - well it is NOT a UK breed in the first place.
So getting back to the GSD and the KC (and the KC is at the bottom of the barrel in my esteem) maybe, just maybe this witholding of CC's will have some positive results. It may give a wake up call to other breeds. I really think though there are other breeds that they should also withold on at the same time.
MM - there are many judges who are roped in to judge breeds other than the ones they are passed to assess, and most accept. I judge my breed and the rest of the hound group and have been asked several times to judge other groups breeds which I turn down. But only last month a judge friend judged 4 breeds at one show, he is only passed for one and the show secretary gave him a 5 minutes "lesson" in what to lok for in the other 3 breeds for the day!!! Yes this was a KC affiliated show. The KC has alot to answer for and maybe they are doing too little too late but CC allocation will hit where it hurts. I wish they would take a good look at their judges though and get their own house in order first.
 
QR

My goodness what a change! Although having seen some old pictures of the first cocker spaniels, the change in other breeds is just as great.

I've never really 'got' showing anyway I must admit, I think GSDs are gorgeous dogs but I can't help but find the dogs from the sixties much nicer to look at as to my uneducated eye they just look more sound and fit for their jobs. Sorry GSD lovers...

That said I am considering a trip to London to find and 'rehome' Nelson the GSD off Send In The Dogs this week, as he is soooo handsome! I don't mind that he can't do heelwork properly
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Thanks for answering my questions all of you! I feel informed on the double handling thing but I'm still not truly understanding why GSD's are shown so differently from other breeds
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The double handling in the GSD ring exist because in the end of the day, it is not an endurance competition for dogs, it is a dog show. If the judge are choosing between two equivalent dogs, the choice will most likely be the dog that shows him-/herself the best. Sometimes they might even choose an anatomically slightly less good dog, before a slightly better one, because the first one showed him-/herself much better.

So, since MurphysMinder said it was a lot more than 10 laps around the ring, they do it to make their GSD look really alert and showy all the 25 laps around the ring.


But if the judges mostly looked at the gait and the endurance while the GSDs are running and judged the showiness mostly when the dogs are standing still, it would hopefully put a stop to the most excessive outside handling.

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Nelson has caught the hearts of the nation i think hanandhen!
Yes I agree other breeds have changed hugely over the years too but the thing that caught my attention with this article and the gsds is that those dogs of the past that to you and me are more asthetically pleasing and appear to us more fit for purpose are actually still around today, almost exactly, I know several, kc reg gsds in loving pet homes, happy and healthy but they wouldnt stand a chance in the show ring they are the wrong shape to win shows yet they look exactly as the breed used to it seems, surely then they are more correct?!
 
'Tis an odd world is showing - for horses as well as doggies, at the risk of being beaten to death with a wet lettuce leaf or being disembowelled with a spoon by showing experts I look at some show winning horses and ponies and think... mehhh why has that won? Esp some hunter winners, they look like they'd break in five mins doing the real thing! Or drop dead of heart failure due to being - how shall I put this - somewhat rotund...

I am feeling much more informed about GSDs now though
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Now here is a question - why do GSDs not have 'show' and 'working' types as in some other breeds? Am thinking of the huge difference between working and show spaniels and labs which look totally different from each other. Why have GSDs not developed in this way I wonder... just interested!

I heart Nelson, almost as much I heart Diesal and Vinnie...
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[ QUOTE ]
...... but the thing that caught my attention with this article and the gsds is that those dogs of the past that to you and me are more asthetically pleasing and appear to us more fit for purpose are actually still around today, almost exactly, I know several, kc reg gsds in loving pet homes, happy and healthy but they wouldnt stand a chance in the show ring they are the wrong shape to win shows yet they look exactly as the breed used to it seems, surely then they are more correct?!

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You've put far better my feelings on the subject, than I could have done.

My particular favourite was the dog from 1958. Just stunning!
 
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Nelson has caught the hearts of the nation i think hanandhen!
Yes I agree other breeds have changed hugely over the years too but the thing that caught my attention with this article and the gsds is that those dogs of the past that to you and me are more aesthetically pleasing and appear to us more fit for purpose are actually still around today, almost exactly, I know several, kc reg gsds in loving pet homes, happy and healthy but they wouldn't stand a chance in the show ring they are the wrong shape to win shows yet they look exactly as the breed used to it seems, surely then they are more correct?!

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Not necessarily, I've seen old photos of some breeds that really doesn't look suitable for anything. Also f.ex. I've heard that some toy/small dog breeds can have problems with missing teeth, a problem that some breeders have managed to get rid off in their breed by sensible breeding.
So with increased understanding of anatomy, genetics etc, in some breeds it is a matter of an improvement. Although as always when there is people in charge, some goes to far and if it then is made popular by people not understanding better...



Personally I can only admit that regarding the GSD breed, I don't really care if or how durable and/or suitable they are for their purpose, if when standing still it looks like the lower thighs is only one hands width from the ground, I simply don't like it. But as I understand it, that type is not the type that MurphysMinder or Hacking_Hack prefers either?


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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...... but the thing that caught my attention with this article and the gsds is that those dogs of the past that to you and me are more asthetically pleasing and appear to us more fit for purpose are actually still around today, almost exactly, I know several, kc reg gsds in loving pet homes, happy and healthy but they wouldnt stand a chance in the show ring they are the wrong shape to win shows yet they look exactly as the breed used to it seems, surely then they are more correct?!

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You've put far better my feelings on the subject, than I could have done.

My particular favourite was the dog from 1958. Just stunning!

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He was a good dog in his day. The standard has changed over the years, as have those of many other breeds, none of which people seem to be picking apart.
A judge who does not judge to the standard (I would look to that of the WUSV, the governing body, personally) is not acting in the best interest of the breed.

I do not show my animals because while I think they are lovely, they do not adhere closely enough to the standard and if a judge were to place them first, it would be to the detriment of the breed in terms of promoting an animal that was incorrect.

As I mentioned before, different issues occur year to year at the Sieger, dogs are judged accordingly and the Sieger is chosen not only on his own merits in terms of his performance in the competiton, but what he can do to improve on the standard for next year, ie improving size, angulation, movement etc.

My personal favourite from that list is the Double Sieger Uran.
He was also one of the best producers in our time and his influence can still be seen in today's animals.
One of his most important sons in the UK was International Ch Rosehurst Chris, who himself became a prolific sire.
You can see the type Uran transmitted.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/399618.html

The two most important dogs on that list are Klodo and Utz.
They revolutionised the shape of the modern GSD.
When they first came on the scene, a lot of people reacted with horror!
But everyone now can see their positive influence on the breed.

Re movement - it, to me, after character, is the thing a GSD in the showring should be judged upon. It proves above all else, including a dog's stance, that it is well put together and sound.
As I have said before, any dog can be pushed into a nice stance.
And, once again, you cannot see it when you trot the dog in a small triangle.

Han and Hen, all of the dogs who compete at the top level in Germany are working dogs.
Here there is more of a split in types and this is what we are trying to correct.
There are dogs competing in Working Trials that would not stand up to scrutiny in the breed ring in the UK or Germany.
There certainly is a split between working and showing types but as I said before, I'll take a dog that is sound in mind and body over all else.
However the two are not mutually exclusive.

Would you care to tell me if you think my dog is deformed, by the way, AmyMay?
 
Thank you Hacking_hack - am learning much today
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BTW you know I think Bodo and Bella are babes don't you?
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Personally I can only admit that regarding the GSD breed, I don't really care if or how durable and/or suitable they are for their purpose, if when standing still it looks like the lower thighs is only one hands width from the ground, I simply don't like it. But as I understand it, that type is not the type that MurphysMinder or Hacking_Hack prefers either?


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Damn straight!
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I don't know how true this is, but the late - and legendary -Herr Walter Martin of the Winerau kennel, at one time head of the SV, maintained that a dog with good hips will build up excellent muscle in the thigh.
 
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