What do you do when things go wrong?

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JillA

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As in training a young horse. Do you keep on doing stuff the same in the hope it will get through in the end, or get upset, ask for help or spend time trying to work out what was wrong and how to fix it?
I have a 5 yr old unbroken cob x mare with issues in the field whose owner can't catch her and so has been just hanging out in the field, to get her used to her presence and "bond" - over 10 days, and it is getting worse. She is the "local expert" who knows it all and has an answer for every thing so I have left her to do it, but really IMHO no progress in that time is a bit of a give away that it isn't working.
Yesterday the mare barged the gate when the others were coming through and was partly responsible for two getting out onto the road.
This morning I have told owner she needs to be caught every day, by whatever means, and a routine established. I waited for her to ask for help when it was clear she wasn't going to be able to catch her her way, but she didn't. Instead she made herself scarce, muttering about knackers, while another livery and I got her in the yard, caught her and handed her to owner to put in her stable.
I deliberately didn't offer any help earlier - to me, owner needs to recognise that she does have much more to learn, and to go away and find out how to fix the problem. Otherwise she argues about every suggestion.
She wants to "do everything at the mares pace" for which I read the mare is in control, she isn't nervous. I'm just hoping owner will recognise her lack of expertise (she doesn't seem able to read that the mare in playing her, not scared of her) and step up.
Should I have offered more help or not been so insistent that she catches her horse every day?
 
OFGS; why do silly people own horses? OF COURSE you did the right thing, this lady sounds clueless and obviously needs help (or even better, the horse taken away and given to a proper trainer).
 
You can only help those who want to be helped and other people have some very strange ideas about training. I have a lovely friend who believes that you should never ask a horse to do anything just wait for it to offer it. No amount of argument will get her thinking differently, her horse doesn't go in an outline because he's not ready to do it not because he's behind the leg wandering along in a world of his own. He's not a bargy horse although he's knocked her over and kicked her, he's just a bit of an oaf! Strangely when handled or ridden by other people who are not afraid to demand a bit of respect, he's a different horse (bit bolshy at first but knuckles under). However, if the mare is causing problems than the YO needs to deal with it.
 
What an insult to IHDG - where do you get that idea? Any of the RAs will be very strict and would soon get this horse sorted.
OP, you are doing the right thing, the horse is an oaf, and would be a lot happier if the owner took a much firmer line, at least it would know where its place is.

As an aside, Monty Roberts says that a mare can be the most challenging.
 
I'd be more concerned about a gate opening directly onto the road from a field ofhorses coming in regularly than a horse that doesn't want to be caught - I'd be setting up an 'inner gate' to avoid that problem happning again as regular catching is only more likely to make the horse keen to be at the gate an dbargy.. and leave the owner to her own inability to catch
 
SusieT said:
I'd be more concerned about a gate opening directly onto the road from a field ofhorses coming in regularly than a horse that doesn't want to be caught - I'd be setting up an 'inner gate' to avoid that problem happning again as regular catching is only more likely to make the horse keen to be at the gate an dbargy.. and leave the owner to her own inability to catch
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The gate doesn't open direct on to the road, the yard is between them and a drive and a road gate. In 18 years the only one who ever wandered on to the unclassified road was the very old arab more who went at a snails pace and nibbled a bit of grass lol. These two were going flat out - my guess would be there had been a lot of shouting and arm waving - I wasn't there, and they clearly didn't think they needed me.

Oh and BTW I am an IHDG member (Intelligent Horsemanship Discussion Group EQUIDAE) but it isn't about letting the horse make decisions, it is about boundaries and training and insisting without confrontation.
 
Unfortunately you can't help someone who thinks they are right.

However, YO should be stepping in as this sounds like a safety issue. I'm lucky that my horse came to me well mannered and I have kept those boundries in place, but if she caused an incident like that I would be mortified and assessing my own capabilities of being able to handle her.

My last mare was awful on the ground when I bought her, and for everyones safety until I was able to sort the situation,as it does take time, she was on individual turnout. She then went into a field with other horses that had experienced handlers. I insisted that noone else handle her bar me and if she got bargey at the gate to call me (I worked on the yard) and I would come immidiately and sort it out. Before she was PTS (which was the root of her problems I think) she was incredibly well mannered and could be handled by anyone. They are too big an animal to be dragging you to grass verges, barging at the door, refusing to be caught (What if they need the vet or are injured, you have to be able to catch your horse!!) and barging out of fields.

(I actually went on a course at a yard where they practiced the Monty Roberts way of things and I tell you, it helped me no end with her which is the reason why I went. Understanding how to assert my authority effectively but not through fear which long term is a much better solution, and it in turned enabled me to have the confidence handle difficult horses safely)
 
10 days? Jeez, the owner really has no clue. How did she react when her uncatchable mare was handed to her having been caught by someone without this mythical bond? Occasionally mine gives me the run around but there would be a serious problem if it continued for more than 10 minutes let alone the amount of time this owner has been faffing around.
 
Cortez said:
OFGS; why do silly people own horses? OF COURSE you did the right thing, this lady sounds clueless and obviously needs help (or even better, the horse taken away and given to a proper trainer).
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I don't know , I often wonder why people get themselves into these situations, I think often they buy into the mystical bond with the magic horse thing and they have no idea that it's 99.5 % graft .5 % magic .
 
JillA said:
As in training a young horse. Do you keep on doing stuff the same in the hope it will get through in the end, or get upset, ask for help or spend time trying to work out what was wrong and how to fix it?
I have a 5 yr old unbroken cob x mare with issues in the field whose owner can't catch her and so has been just hanging out in the field, to get her used to her presence and "bond" - over 10 days, and it is getting worse. She is the "local expert" who knows it all and has an answer for every thing so I have left her to do it, but really IMHO no progress in that time is a bit of a give away that it isn't working.
Yesterday the mare barged the gate when the others were coming through and was partly responsible for two getting out onto the road.
This morning I have told owner she needs to be caught every day, by whatever means, and a routine established. I waited for her to ask for help when it was clear she wasn't going to be able to catch her her way, but she didn't. Instead she made herself scarce, muttering about knackers, while another livery and I got her in the yard, caught her and handed her to owner to put in her stable.
I deliberately didn't offer any help earlier - to me, owner needs to recognise that she does have much more to learn, and to go away and find out how to fix the problem. Otherwise she argues about every suggestion.
She wants to "do everything at the mares pace" for which I read the mare is in control, she isn't nervous. I'm just hoping owner will recognise her lack of expertise (she doesn't seem able to read that the mare in playing her, not scared of her) and step up.
Should I have offered more help or not been so insistent that she catches her horse every day?
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When you say the horse was "partly responsible" for two getting loose on the road - was a human also "partly responsible", and was that human you? You sound pretty annoyed about this when it's not a massive issue, loose horses aside, if someone else can't catch their own horse.

IMO 10 days isn't a long time, and unless you had the 5yo before her owner or know more about her history than the owner does then i don't think it's useful for you to decide arbitrarily that it's "too long" or the horse isn't fearful. Sometimes the transition from fearful to trusting has a period of boundary testing in between. Perhaps the horse has realised that this human isn't going to use aggressive force but isn't at a point of trusting the human yet. The owner is trying to forge the relationship she wants with the horse, not the relationship YOU would necessarily want with a horse. But it's her horse. I personally wouldn't feed a dog before me, or let it sleep on my bed, however "lovely" the dog is. But i know many happy families who let their dogs on the beds and feed them from the table with no obvious ill effects. Conversely i never let my babies cry longer than a few seconds, fed them all on demand and let them sleep in my bed if they wanted to. I would have taken a rather dim view of you telling me after ten days to change my practices and get into a routine for YOUR convenience.

Anyway, i think if you know she doesn't want advice then don't give it, and don't be annoyed that you can't give it. It's her horse. It seems like this is your yard, and she's a paying guest. It's okay if you don't really want her horse about - i mean i don't see the harm in her approach but if you do, well, it's your property and this is one of those situations where there's no "right" - both your ideas and hers have value and will probably work long term. If you'd rather not deal with her practices then just serve her notice and make sure you're there the day she's moving to help catch.
 
littletrotter said:
Anyway, i think if you know she doesn't want advice then don't give it, and don't be annoyed that you can't give it. It's her horse. It seems like this is your yard, and she's a paying guest. It's okay if you don't really want her horse about - i mean i don't see the harm in her approach but if you do, well, it's your property and this is one of those situations where there's no "right" - both your ideas and hers have value and will probably work long term. If you'd rather not deal with her practices then just serve her notice and make sure you're there the day she's moving to help catch.
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I agree with most of this. If you are simply renting grazing/stabling then it is up to her how she trains her horse. She is not paying for your expertise and obviously doesn't want it, . You may think her methods are stupid, and they may well be but her horse, if she is paying rent and it is not causing a problem then up to her. Anyone can train their horse as they wish, I don't think a yard owner has a right to tell them how to train it. If it is causing a problem and is a danger to your yard then that is a different matter so give her notice otherwise let her get on with it..
 
JillA said:
As in training a young horse. Do you keep on doing stuff the same in the hope it will get through in the end, or get upset, ask for help or spend time trying to work out what was wrong and how to fix it?
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Depends on the circumstances but I know when I'm beat and would rather seek help (and have) than ruin my youngster.

My YO is awesome though, saw when I was initially stuck and offered help. Had she not, I might have found it hard to ask because I desperately don't want to put anyone out.

If your livery felt judged by you or was aware of your frustration with her, might she have found it hard to turn to you? It might have been kind to offer help when you saw she needed it (as my YO did with me).

If she wants to work on catching her own horse, in her own way, it shouldn't really be a problem unless it's putting you out for some reason?

Gateway barging is another matter entirely though and of course, she can't work on that unless she is able to catch him and work on groundwork, etc.

I'd say be constructively supportive where possible.
 
OP as I see it you two choices you intervene and sort the issue or you move the horse and owner on to disrupt someone else's yard .
Even if you sort the horse it's owner will still be the same and on a small semi private set up I would not put up with it.
 
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