What do you guys make of...

Nice looking welsh D by the looks of it. That's not horsemanship, that's just pretty standard "natural" stuff, showboating as usual. No need/advantage to do it that fast or that way, but probably no harm either.
 
Haven’t watched it all the way through, but didn’t think the horse was accepting what he was doing in the beginning and didn’t have the chance to move away as he is on a very tight rope. So not comfortable with it either.
 
Cortez said:
Nice looking welsh D by the looks of it. That's not horsemanship, that's just pretty standard "natural" stuff, showboating as usual. No need/advantage to do it that fast or that way, but probably no harm either.
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I agree with this, nothing wrong with what he did but it looks easier with such a quiet horse, anyone could have put a saddle on him and jumped on, I doubt the horse would have objected. He’s 5 and well handled, I’d like to see him with a wilder 3 year old !
 
Unnecessary IMO, whats wrong with just taking it slow? Didnt like him pulling the head round tight. The horse looked like a nice sensible type, I cant imagine this method would work on anything remotely more spirited. I just dont see the point in rushing it like this, whats wrong with every day just doing a little bit every day to keep the horse comfortable and willing...
 
MagicMelon said:
Unnecessary IMO, whats wrong with just taking it slow? Didnt like him pulling the head round tight. The horse looked like a nice sensible type, I cant imagine this method would work on anything remotely more spirited. I just dont see the point in rushing it like this, whats wrong with every day just doing a little bit every day to keep the horse comfortable and willing...
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It doesn't wow spectators
 
Having watched a lot of Buck Brannaman's videos, this bloke didn't start up any dialogue with the horse. Then started lumping about on his back, having elbowed him in the neck and frightened him. What a muppet. Super, accepting horse, with a temperament to die for. I gave up watching half way through....
 
Um, it's not what I'd do. But it's his own neck he's risking, I guess. Not sure it's the most positive start for the pony either, but I guess it's not the worst either...
 
JFTD said:
Um, it's not what I'd do. But it's his own neck he's risking, I guess. Not sure it's the most positive start for the pony either, but I guess it's not the worst either...
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Although he's also risking the neck of the wide eyed person he sells it to, who then buys a horse that has not had a sufficient grounding to his education :(
 
It looked a very clumsy way to do things, to me. And although the horse is doing what's wanted, I don't think it's actually learned or understood much (anything) and is not taking part in the process. As a training process, it looks more like flooding than anything else and my understanding is that flooding can unravel spontaneously at any point in the future. Also, that bloke looks nervous as a kitten to me. I think he knows he's taking liberties.
 
The last video I watched of his- a clearly terrified horse is tied to a pole and going nuts. A “patience pole” apparently. A few months later the same horse is being offered for sale - ridden. I hate to think what’s happened to it in the meantime.
 
Evie91 said:
The last video I watched of his- a clearly terrified horse is tied to a pole and going nuts. A “patience pole” apparently. A few months later the same horse is being offered for sale - ridden. I hate to think what’s happened to it in the meantime.
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That sounds like the traditional south american (and I think north american back in the day) way of "breaking" horses, ie tie a wild horse hard up to a solid post, then "sack it out" to a standstill, then jump on (often with a hind leg tied up) and ride/spur to a standstill. Voilla, a broken horse....
I'm not saying this guy is doing anything like that in this video, (and I haven't seen the "Patience Post"), but I think he's putting on too much pressure and not giving the horse a break or any time to assimilate or accept. He just adds layers of pressure. Obvs this isn't in real time, not sure if it's all in one session. If it is, it's absolutely not necessary.
 
Gona buck the trend of this thread so far and in my 'very' limit knowledge I really enjoyed watching that. The horse had obviously had a lot of ground work put into him as he was relaxed and amenable and well mannered. It was a safe and quiet environment and each step was taken confidently and quietly and at no point did I think the horse couldnt answer the questions it was being given albeit he was a little confused but arent they all when the time comes for the actual person going on top of his back?

I enjoyed watching that and other than him wearing a cap not a hat which I think was rather silly I thought it was all very calm, quiet and most of all kind and positive experience.
 
Antw23uk said:
Gona buck the trend of this thread so far and in my 'very' limit knowledge I really enjoyed watching that. The horse had obviously had a lot of ground work put into him as he was relaxed and amenable and well mannered. It was a safe and quiet environment and each step was taken confidently and quietly and at no point did I think the horse couldnt answer the questions it was being given albeit he was a little confused but arent they all when the time comes for the actual person going on top of his back?

I enjoyed watching that and other than him wearing a cap not a hat which I think was rather silly I thought it was all very calm, quiet and most of all kind and positive experience.
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But the ground work was not put in by that trainer; it literally said 'first day' in the description, implying that it was the (rather gorgeous!) stallion's first day with this trainer.
Well done to his owners who had handled him so well. He was a beautiful horse and very well behaved and tolerant IMHO.

Though looking at the guy's page he seems to do an awful lot of selling; maybe he's a dealer who does the horsemanship on the side because it just looks like horses for sale ads?
 
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Chinchilla said:
But the ground work was not put in by that trainer; it literally said 'first day' in the description, implying that it was the (rather gorgeous!) stallion's first day with this trainer.
Well done to his owners who had handled him so well.
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Yeah I read the description and a credit to his owner for putting that work into him because when they felt it time to ask for someone's help backing him they had already set him up to succeed but what you are saying seems to be that only the person who did his ground work should have been the person getting on his back?

If I had a youngster I would do all the ground work and set them up to succeed so when the time came to back them (and I wasnt doing it myself) I would know that because of my hard work that youngster could be handled by any competent person and would be tolerant of being handled by other people in different situations ... because as an owner its my job to make my horses future as secure as possible by making it as educated and well balanced as possible so I dont think I am following what you are saying (sorry if I've got it wrong)


I'm only commenting on this video so cant comment on anything else he has posted.
 
Relaxed?!?! What on earth about the horse suggests it's relaxed? Watch its face. Yes it's not tanking off - because it's got a pressure halter on - but it's certainly overwhelmed. Compare its face with the equine expression stuff from Sue Dyson. What he's doing is flooding, horse has no choice in it whatsoever.
 
Morgan123 said:
Relaxed?!?! What on earth about the horse suggests it's relaxed? Watch its face. Yes it's not tanking off - because it's got a pressure halter on - but it's certainly overwhelmed. Compare its face with the equine expression stuff from Sue Dyson. What he's doing is flooding, horse has no choice in it whatsoever.
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I'm gona have to go watch the video again and google Sue Dyson now ... damn internet .. everyone's an expert!!!
 
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Antw23uk said:
Yeah I read the description and a credit to his owner for putting that work into him because when they felt it time to ask for someone's help backing him they had already set him up to succeed but what you are saying seems to be that only the person who did his ground work should have been the person getting on his back?

If I had a youngster I would do all the ground work and set them up to succeed so when the time came to back them (and I wasnt doing it myself) I would know that because of my hard work that youngster could be handled by any competent person and would be tolerant of being handled by other people in different situations ... because as an owner its my job to make my horses future as secure as possible by making it as educated and well balanced as possible so I dont think I am following what you are saying (sorry if I've got it wrong)


I'm only commenting on this video so cant comment on anything else he has posted.
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I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying don't give this guy credit for something he didn't do. I'd definitely agree that a well handled horse ought to be handleable by anyone though!
 
Chinchilla said:
I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying don't give this guy credit for something he didn't do. I'd definitely agree that a well handled horse ought to be handleable by anyone though!
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I get what you were implying and thought much the same, the video is suggesting this was day 1 in the education of this horse whereas in reality it has probably been extremely well handled and possibly shown for much of it's life so most of the work was already in place, he would have been led, tied up, loaded, probably rugged and bathed regularly so very well prepared to start the next stage which if it had come here for backing would have been done far more slowly without the flooding seen on the video.

I only see a confused horse that starts to shut down which to my mind is not what I want in any horse, it may be "backed" by the end but it has not actually taken a forward step only spun round to disengage the quarters, confidently going forward and moving freely is what I want in a young horse that has just been backed but I have never seen the point in doing a rush job to impress an audience.
 
If anyone wants to see some lovely work with two unhandled fillies over a two week period, have a look at Anna Bonnage Horsemanship on Facebook and her video diaries over the last fortnight. And then compare the body language of this stallion with those fillies.
 
Not comfortable viewing for me either. The horses body language, facial expression and the fact it's head was being pulled round by a pressure halter so it can not buck react screamed Nooooooooooooooo to me.
 
I just don’t see wants desirable about that approach .
It’s not hard to get onto the back of a horse it’s less easily to develop a horses back so it’s ready to carry the rider .
 
He's local to me and I know a few people that rate him.

I went off him when I was looking for a new horse and saw a cob he was advertising. It wasn't lame per se, just not moving forward at all. It just didn't look right. I just felt like he should have acknowledged it, and maybe said he needed to strengthen is back end or whatever, as anyone with half a brain could have seen it on the video.
 
Goldenstar said:
I just don’t see wants desirable about that approach .
It’s not hard to get onto the back of a horse it’s less easily to develop a horses back so it’s ready to carry the rider .
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This is very true. I don't think anything that's been under saddle for so short a time should be made to spin like that anyway, they aren't balanced or strong enough. ycbm even said on the Ludo Logbook thread that a 60*30 area is much easier on a young horse than a 60*20. If that is true (and ycbm really know their stuff so it pretty much undoubtedly is) then I just can't see how spinning around like that isn't going to be hard on something that isn't balanced - and let's be honest, no horse having its first rider on is going to be balanced properly.
 
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